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1960 Navigator Rebuild Part THREE

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Today I got the rest of the painted parts in blue and the tank in blue/dove gray.

IMG_20171206_111724

Perfekt paint!

Firstly I made a cosy home for he battery, I found some blue styrofoam. Has some racing history! I bought a seat base for my Commando from Joe Seifert, he used it on one of his racing bikes with the blue styrofoam on it- but not for long....

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Switches, ammeter and speedo went into the lamp housing but not wired yet.

The right switch is just for decoration, I made a conversion to 12 volts and made a new simplier wiring loom.

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I forgot to take the styling panel at the headstock with my. Still at the paint shop.

The tank panels will soon be on the way to Slovenia for rechroming. A friend visits his family over there for christmas and found a good an cheap chroming shop. Hopefully I get the parts back after the holidays because the bike should be on show at a motorcycle show in Friedrichshafen at the end of January.

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Well done. It is looking good. By the way your speedometer is not the correct item for a Jubilee or Navigator. The dial shows a figure of 1760 (cable turns per mile) and goes up to 80 miles per hour; correct speedo is 1600 turns per mile and goes up to 100 miles per hour. So it will not show the correct speed - it will indicate a lower speed than actual so be careful in the city speed limits.

Patrick

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Looks like left hand drive to me ..... my ignition switch is on the other side, but which is right?!

For what itâs worth I think mine has the same speedo as that.

Did you get the front mudguard sorted?

dan

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Thanks for the hint, Patrick.

Dan, I spoke to the man who welded the indent and he said the only way to make it fit is to cut up the indent, bent it an add a stripe of metal so that the radius is bigger- which means new paint also.

I leave as it is at the moment, just for the bike show.

Don?t know if the speedo has been changed sometime. But if Dan has also this type of speedo, mmmh??

Maybe a different drive at the rear wheel?

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Yes there are potentially all sorts of different ratios for the rear wheel gearbox as well !. The 'correct' one to match the 1600 speedo is a 2:1 ratio. The 1600 speedo is quite hard to find at auto jumbles as it may be unique to the Norton lightweights (and possibly the Francis Barnett Cruiser.)

There are all sorts of different of different 'cable turn ' numbers as this Smiths speedo design was used on all sorts of Francis Barnetts, BSA Bantams, Triumph Tiger Cub, James, etc. It is only when you start looking seriously at the speedo face that you discover how many different versions there are. The first part of the reference number also varies as well; SN3153/95 1600 100MPH on both my Navigators; the earlier 1959 Jubilees have a 80MPH speedo and it's a different SN number.

I agree with Uli's switches; ignition switch on the right but I doubt if it is critical unless you are VERY seriously into concours.

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I had a Honda VFR400 a few years ago and the MOT man failed it because the speedo was in KmH. I had to put a sticker on the dial reading in MPH.

Will the TUV Inspector query your MPH speedo?

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Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

I agree with Uli's switches; ignition switch on the right but I doubt if it is critical unless you are VERY seriously into concours.

Damn that means mine is left hand drive!

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He didn?t query it on my Commando also with mph scale, as long as GB is part of the EU it doesn?t matter...

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

I had a Honda VFR400 a few years ago and the MOT man failed it because the speedo was in KmH. I had to put a sticker on the dial reading in MPH.

Will the TUV Inspector query your MPH speedo?

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You got to reach the switch with the left hand when the right hand holds the throttle wide open and suddenly it gets dark!

Previously Dan Field wrote:

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

I agree with Uli's switches; ignition switch on the right but I doubt if it is critical unless you are VERY seriously into concours.

Damn that means mine is left hand drive!

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Not that speedo is much better than a chocolate fire guard, it still swings a good 10mph radius once moving! I have a new one from ebay I might try plus the ammeter is just a push fit at the moment.

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Hi Dan,

That speedo looks fine to me. It is highly likely the correct one for a 1960 Jubilee. A needle swinging about is usually a cable fault- have you tried re-routing the cable to get the bend as smooth as possible or maybe some light oil on the inner cable.

Here's the flight deck of the Yamton - the 120 mph speedo and the rev counter do work. The headlight is the standard 5 3/4" but the original 'tell tales' have been replaced by warning lights for Neutral and Oil Pressure.

Attachments p1010096-jpg
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Here's the one that would really suit Uli's Navigator. It's a KmH speedo for a Navigator.

We are a bit mixed up here ; we still use MPH and miles here in the North but a few miles away in the Republic we use KmH and kilometers.

Attachments p1010097-jpg
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Well done. You certainly don't hang around. I had forgotten about the Ariel Arrow as a potential user but from now on it is a Norton Navigator speedo. Both my Navigators have this same reference number but they both have a white marker line at 30MPH. It is amazing the differences even when they have the same reference . They are 60mm- not 2" -and you can get the correct new chrome rim on Ebay UK.

It will keep you gainfully employed taking it apart and renovating. You can do this over Christmas sitting by a big fire in the living room. The first proper snow has just fallen here last night - so I'm staying away from my workshop until the Spring comes.

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Hi John,

I'm in Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland, about 15Kms from the (no)border with the Republic. Our vehicles here are subject to MOT (done at special Government test centres so different to the English version), or NCT if you live 10 miles away, but we all know they are very much the same as the German TUV. (TUV here has a different political meaning !!)

Picture of my front lawn taken just now - it is still snowing and temperatures will be well minus tonight.

Patrick

Attachments p1010098-jpg
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I fitted the front styling panel for the headstock an routed all the cables through it.

Clutchcable and chokecable through the right hole (seen on the left) and the wiring loom through the left hole.

IMG_20171208_083428

Gas cable goes through the hole top right.

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I can push the tank forward until it hits the panel but when I fix it with the screw at the back there is a gap between the tank and the panel.

IMG_20171208_083516

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That does look neat and tidy. We really need an opinion from Andy as to what is strictly correct-does anyone else know?. My opinion is that the wiring loom through the left hand hole is correct; throttle(gas) cable through the right hand top is correct. I have the choke cable and the wires to the horn through the bottom right. Neither of my Navigator clutch cables were long enough to go this route and didn't allow free movement of the handlebars. So if you are happy with the operation of the cables your routing is much better than my version. My clutch cable just runs behind the top left hand of the styling panel but my excuse is that the clutch operates smoothly that way.

Everyone of my Jubilees/Navigators has a gap between the panel and the tank.

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Getting there:

IMG_20171218_074715

The chromed fork seal holders are a tad short..

IMG_20171218_074726

Just pinned together. After that pic I changed changed the handlebars to the straight "drag bars" with a bar end mirror.

The seat has to be corrected, the "hump" in the middle has to be shaved and the cover needs to be straightened.

IMG_20171218_074737

The correct speedo arrived before christmas and was cleaned but not yet tested. I was lucky to find a NOS Wipac ammeter in the colonies which is also on it's way to good old Europe. After the motorcycle show at the end of January details will be fixed and lubricants filled and hopefully the enigne will be fired up.

It had to get off the lift to make place for my Beemer which is in need for a new clutch which is a major operation..

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IMG_20171219_173124

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Hello Uli,

OIL SEAL HOLDERS TOO SHORT.

You may already have checked this but have you screwed the damper rods fully into the chrome nuts at the top of the fork legs? This is often forgotten when assembling.

Nice BM. I thought that BMW's never broke down.

Patrick

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Patrick, I guess I ordered the wrong oil seal holders . They must be for an early Commando with rubber gaitors. The original ones were slightly longer to reach into the top shrouds. The damper rods are fully home.

And yes , Beemers need some attention but a new clutch is ok.

It?s the second one since 1983 and 70.000 kilometres.

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What a lovely job indeed, I have recently had a bit of encouragement to actually finish my own Jubilee, itâs sat around for seven years now, do you have any idea of the paint code number, I fancy going for a copy of your colors.

Thank you Kelvin (Isle of Man)

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Kelvin, for the blue I chose RAL 5019 Capriblue (Capriblau)

and for the dove gray RAL 1013 pearlwhite (perlweiss in german).

No special mixed colours because the frame was powdercoated

andthe tinware painted, the colours should match and the powdercoater could only use RAL colours.

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Hi Ulrich, thank you for the reply. I shall check with the two powder coaters we have on the Island.

Cheers Kelvin.

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And she runs!

But we have the good, the bad and the ugly!

The good:

Running, started on the third kick, no major oil leaks, oil flows back in the oil tank.

Brakes are working. Lights, horn and brake light also. Ewarts fuel tap is not leaking.

The bad:

Jumps out of first gear, clutch needs to be sorted, clutch hand lever does not go back all the way when pulled.

The ugly:

Me on the bike...Wink

At first start she was idling way to high although the idle screw on the carb was all the way out. The free lenght of the gas cable was to short. I mounted a carb cover with adjustment screws and the cable must have been for a cover without them. So I soldered a new one which was a tad longer and now she runs fine.

Jumping out of first gear is a major issue, isn?t it?

Adjusting that clutch also!

No matter what I did the clutch plate did not lift parallel . I turned the spring adjustment collars in and out with no effect. So I thought when been driven a while it will settle. I put about 200ml ATF oil into the primary drive like on my Commando.

Will attack these problems after the Easter holidays!

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Is the primary chain tight?,that will mess up gearchange and pull the clutch out of line. A bit loose is better than tight.

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Well done.

Jumping out of first gear should be easy enough to sort with a shim but let it run a bit first and see how things settle in.

If the clutch lever isn't going all the way back to the handlebars then there is something very wrong in the clutch adjustment; it sounds like the clutch actuating arm is going over centre. Screw in the cable adjuster until you have excessive slack in the cable then adjust the clutch push rod by using the adjuster nut in the centre of the clutch pressure plate. (Take off the primary cover to do this ) Then readjust the cable to give about 4/5mm free play.

Happy Easter. There is more snow forecast for here over the weekend.

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Looking good Uli, hope mine looks that good when finished but itâs just an engine on the bench and boxes of bits at the moment!

Dan

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Happy Easter to everybody!

Thanks for the kind words an the hints.

First of all I will adjust the clutch an see whether she still slips out of first gear.

Why didn?t they make an inspection hole for the clutch adjuster nut into the primary cover? And why is the cable adjuster behind the styling panel?Undecided

Major operations necessary to fix the clutch!

If it needs shimming, what shims can I use for the kickstart shaft?

In a Commando gearbox you can use isolastic shims

but I guess the lightweight kickstart shaft has a different diameter.

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The NOCshop keeps the shim but I don't know the exact sizes. I think they are around 10 or 20 thou in thickness. Oddly enough the early 1959/60 gearbox did not have any shims listed in the 1959 parts list - they seem to have appeared in 1961 parts list. Presumably this was a case of Norton responding to wear in the gears. Most people probably just make them out of some shim material. You have the advantage here in trying the Commando shim.

Yes that clutch is a pain in the neck as every time you remove the primary cover you get a new set of oil leaks unless you make a new gasket each time. This links to your handlebar levers query as well as in my experience the clutch cable with the adjuster at the gearbox end won't work properly if you use the later levers (with the adjuster in the lever). So I don't know if the BSA levers would work with the Norton handlebar mounts. It could be worth sending an email to the Ebay supplier- he has been around for a few years and just might know the answer.

Levers without the ball-ends are actually correct for the 1960 manufactured year but testers can I suppose query this.

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MOT rules here are sometimes very odd - for example our 1958 Morris Isis needs working screen washers to pass yet it doesn't need seat belts !. Most new regulations are not back-dated when they are first introduced but apparently when the law was introduced about screenwashers it was. So it is a case of what is the actual law in Germany.

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Today I opened up the primary drive and dismantled the clutch.

This is what I found:

IMG_20180404_090341_resized_20180404_090403757

The four friction plates are covered on both sides, according to the workshop manual the one that goes behind the pressure plate should have a plain side towards the pressure plate. No21260

The plain plate lying under the pressure plate on the pic is thinner than the other plain plates. There should be a thicker stepped plate to the rear of the stack. No.22765

In the NOC shop there is only a back plate No 21268 available. Correct plate ?

The plain plate without pattern on top left in the pic was not mounted.

Do the plates have the same size as the Atlas/Dominator clutches?

About 146mm in diameter

IMG_20180404_090549_resized_20180404_090402749

Also I can slide the kickstartshaft in an out about 4-5mm, so it needs shimming.

If needed, where can I find new gears for e.g. first gear? The AJS/Matchless lightweight gearboxes are the same?

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Uli, As I recall the plain plates are the same as later amc clutches but the friction plates are different. Iâll be surprised if the gears are trashed, they are pretty robust,

dan

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Hi Uli,

There was a change in the clutch plates somewhere about 1960 and it seems you have parts of the earlier version.The inner back plate for this earlier version uses part number 21268, then 2 bonded each side friction plates separated by three plain clutch plates. Your thin steel plate then goes under the pressure plate but I thought this was bonded on one side. The later version uses a shouldered clutch plate number 22765 as the back plate with three friction and three steel plates. (I think- it's easier if you have the plates in front of you). All sorts of combinations turn up and surprisingly they often work quite well.

In theory the AJS/Matchless lightweights are probably the same gears-so are some Francis Barnett ones- but how do you actually know this for certain until you actually try them in position. Dan's right - the gears are probably fine - after all you had the gearbox apart and would have spotted any real damage to cogs etc.

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Thanks Dan and Patrick.

Will have a look into the gearbox again today and find some shims for the kickstart shaft and also will inspect the gears.

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Hi Uli,

Suggest you have a look at AMC spares. Steve has both types of lever, ball ended and plain, with a 7/8" lever centres. This is certainly important with the Dominators' but unsure if this is an issue with the dare I say it ' lightweights?' He is very good to deal with.

http://www.amcclassicspares.com/

Hope this helps.

Keep up the good work!

Regards Steve

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Previously Ulrich Hoffmann wrote:

Another question!

I guess I need ball ended levers for safety reasons to get TÃV in Germany.

I have bought the levers from NOC spares which are plain. Item code: SS23 29_23646/7

Can I use these instead?

https://www.ebay.de/itm/BSA-C15-AND-BANTAM-BALL-ENDED-HANDLEBAR-LEVER-BLADES/401502637491?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

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Steve, that was a very good hint to AMC-Spares.

I did not buy the ball ended levers but the correct clutch plates for my Navigator. The rear stepped plate and the front one sided plate was missing. They arrived Tuesday and I mounted them on Wednesday, I also shimmed the kickstart shaft but I needed more than a .020" shim to get it right.

Thanks a lot also to Andy Sochanik for his excellent help. He provided me with the necessary information about the clutch and the shimming.

The Wednesday evening test ride did not happen, I left the ignition sparks somewhere on the work bench. Bike refused to start.

I also mounted a new copper head gasket ( see Navigator headaches). Therefore I had remove the coils.

I found the sparks this morning all in a ground cable for the coils I forgot to connect.

The test ride this morning before work was very pleasing. Good clutch action and no more slipping out of first gear also no more blow out from the left cylinder head.

 

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