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Paul Dunstall

I have a 1966 650ss with Paul Dunstall`s name and address as the first owner in the buff log book and have records showing that this was an origanal Domiracer and have a photo of it in 1972 in it`s Domiracer trim.The person i bought it off about 5 years ago was beat mates the John Hudson of Norton and i have lots of letters stating what work John did on the bike like rebuild the engine & gearbox and supplying the last set of barrels to come out of the Norton factory and had to be picked up from Andover for £18.00.It seems that John and Chris (who i bought it off) took off the tank,seat & fairing because of the bad condition and replaced it with standard 6500ss parts.I don`t know what cam is in it but it goes like a bat out of hell up to about 90 in third.It still has it`s TLS front brake and inclosed rear chain case that was in the 1972 photo.I have never seen a genuine Paul Dunstall 650cc Domie racer bike for sale and i belive any bike advertised as a Paul Dunstall Domie racer that don`t have his name & addres in the log book is a copy.I also have a 1966 copy of Motorcycle Mechanics who are road testing a Paul Dunstall 650ss Domie racer and the reg number is 5 numbers away from mine i have added a photo of the bike as it looks know.Does anyone know what the bike is worth and how many were made?.Thanks Paul Wolf

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In terms of resale value, originality goes a long way. You may be better off with the original brake and seat. You may want to check if the mudguards should match the primary chain case. I would ride it as is but when you want to squeeze out the last dollar everything helps. The finned intake stubs are questionable. I use them but I don't intend to sell. I also have a Commando kick-starter on mine but, again, I don't intend to sell. Also you won't get the highest price in the UK. I have not sold a british motorcycle in over 30 years so others have more up-to-date info.

As far as it being a Domiracer, it either is or it isn't. "Used to be" is an iffy category at the auctions. I personally know of British bikes sold to Japanese collectors for crazy money. That is where you should concentrate your efforts.

Oh, and the first entry in a log book is usually a dealer.

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The bike is worth what someone will pay for it, no more no less. I'm not convinced that this particular topic belongs on a technical forum. We are here to help people keep their bikes running, not to obtain the highest price for their bike.

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Why don't you contact 'Factory Records' with details of engine and frame number? Records show dealer and first owner, if my memory serves me well. Similarly, the archivist at the registering authority can, for a fee, supply photocopy of registration record.

The term ' domiracer' does seem to be bandied around rather loosely.

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Previously Jonathan Soons wrote:

In terms of resale value, originality goes a long way. You may be better off with the original brake and seat. You may want to check if the mudguards should match the primary chain case. I would ride it as is but when you want to squeeze out the last dollar everything helps. The finned intake stubs are questionable. I use them but I don't intend to sell. I also have a Commando kick-starter on mine but, again, I don't intend to sell. Also you won't get the highest price in the UK. I have not sold a british motorcycle in over 30 years so others have more up-to-date info.

As far as it being a Domiracer, it either is or it isn't. "Used to be" is an iffy category at the auctions. I personally know of British bikes sold to Japanese collectors for crazy money. That is where you should concentrate your efforts.

Oh, and the first entry in a log book is usually a dealer.

Hi,The front brake is origanal and the first name and address in the log book in this case is Paul Dunstall who was a dearler buying bikes from Norton and converting them to Domie racers.I would like to get hold of a fairing,tank & seat and turn it back into the origanal bike and i am the 5th owner and i am still in touch with the 3rd owner.I am interested in how many were made.Paul

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Previously charles_bovington wrote:

Why don't you contact 'Factory Records' with details of engine and frame number? Records show dealer and first owner, if my memory serves me well. Similarly, the archivist at the registering authority can, for a fee, supply photocopy of registration record.

The term ' domiracer' does seem to be bandied around rather loosely.

Hi,The factory records show that Paul Dunstall was ths first owner who then turned it into a Domie racer,the engine,frame & gearbox are all maching the recordes and i have a photo of the bike in1972 in red with Domie racer on the fairing.Paul

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Previously mark_savage wrote:

Previously Jonathan Soons wrote:

Oh, and the first entry in a log book is usually a dealer.

Since when?

I have about 7 or 8 log books (mostly green) all with dealers names in south England as the first entry. That is a fairly good sample.

If a log book is filled up and a new one issued, the first entry in that one could be anybody. That does not apply in this case.

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Previously paul_wolf wrote:

Previously charles_bovington wrote:

Why don't you contact 'Factory Records' with details of engine and frame number? Records show dealer and first owner, if my memory serves me well. Similarly, the archivist at the registering authority can, for a fee, supply photocopy of registration record.

The term ' domiracer' does seem to be bandied around rather loosely.

Hi,The factory records show that Paul Dunstall was ths first owner who then turned it into a Domie racer,the engine,frame & gearbox are all maching the recordes and i have a photo of the bike in1972 in red with Domie racer on the fairing.Paul

It is difficult to establish a price based on a 40 year old photograph of a different motorcycle. Even if most of the parts were used to build this one which is a very desirable and valuable street bike in almost standard trim. The modifications are very good ones: alloy rims, hump seat, finned intakes, Commando brake. It is better to sell the bike in front of you now and hide the photo. Would you tell the prospective buyer "This bike was thrashed to death on the race-track but I assure you it is fine now"? And the crash-damaged fairing?

I would make up a photo of a little old lady in Ventnor, IOW riding it to church on a Sunday, which she was wont to do. That would be my ideal previous owner. Not a string of London greasers (God bless them) who overtightened a different head bolt every week-end and spent their pocket money on heli-coils (and beer). I was there. I know that of which thereof I speak.

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Previously Jonathan Soons wrote:

Previously paul_wolf wrote:

Previously charles_bovington wrote:

Why don't you contact 'Factory Records' with details of engine and frame number? Records show dealer and first owner, if my memory serves me well. Similarly, the archivist at the registering authority can, for a fee, supply photocopy of registration record.

The term ' domiracer' does seem to be bandied around rather loosely.

Hi,The factory records show that Paul Dunstall was ths first owner who then turned it into a Domie racer,the engine,frame & gearbox are all maching the recordes and i have a photo of the bike in1972 in red with Domie racer on the fairing.Paul

It is difficult to establish a price based on a 40 year old photograph of a different motorcycle. Even if most of the parts were used to build this one which is a very desirable and valuable street bike in almost standard trim. The modifications are very good ones: alloy rims, hump seat, finned intakes, Commando brake. It is better to sell the bike in front of you now and hide the photo. Would you tell the prospective buyer "This bike was thrashed to death on the race-track but I assure you it is fine now"? And the crash-damaged fairing?

I would make up a photo of a little old lady in Ventnor, IOW riding it to church on a Sunday, which she was wont to do. That would be my ideal previous owner. Not a string of London greasers (God bless them) who overtightened a different head bolt every week-end and spent their pocket money on heli-coils (and beer). I was there. I know that of which thereof I speak.

Hi,Thers is no crash damage the bits were just tatty and showing there age and the engine and gearbox was rebuilt by John Hudson.I have tried to find out how many were made but no one seems to know,Paul Dunstall would know but what chance have i got finding that out.Paul

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Speak to Bonhams, the auctioneers. They are best placed to authenticate the provenance, and give you a realistic idea of what to expect at auction.

Let us know how you get on.

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Previously ian_cordes wrote:

Speak to Bonhams, the auctioneers. They are best placed to authenticate the provenance, and give you a realistic idea of what to expect at auction.

Let us know how you get on.

Thanks,I dont know what to value the bike for,for insurance purposes.Thanks Paul

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Previously paul_wolf wrote:

Previously ian_cordes wrote:

Speak to Bonhams, the auctioneers. They are best placed to authenticate the provenance, and give you a realistic idea of what to expect at auction.

Let us know how you get on.

Thanks,I dont know what to value the bike for,for insurance purposes.Thanks Paul

Good idea. I also reckon Bonham's must be the experts. Funny world where the people who can help you are the men in suits. The people fondling their grubby bike parts day-in-day-out are useless on this score.

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Previously Jonathan Soons wrote:

Previously paul_wolf wrote:

Previously ian_cordes wrote:

Speak to Bonhams, the auctioneers. They are best placed to authenticate the provenance, and give you a realistic idea of what to expect at auction.

Let us know how you get on.

Thanks,I dont know what to value the bike for,for insurance purposes.Thanks Paul

Good idea. I also reckon Bonham's must be the experts. Funny world where the people who can help you are the men in suits. The people fondling their grubby bike parts day-in-day-out are useless on this score.

Well they think they are but I fould sometimes there way of the mark,

I put this machines value between £10.5K to 13.5K based on a bonnie of the same year but this a rare so you can add raraty value too , yours anna j

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I put this machines value between £10.5K to 13.5K based on a bonnie of the same year but this a rare so you can add raraty value too , yours anna j

Interesting. Restoring to bog standard might bring more then. It would be a shame to change anything just to satisfy some notion of "showroom condition". I would not want to undo any of the customizations. Except maybe the exhaust retainers which look like 850 Commando style. The small original ones are the nicest.

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Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Well they think they are but I fould sometimes there way of the mark,

I put this machines value between £10.5K to 13.5K based on a bonnie of the same year but this a rare so you can add raraty value too , yours anna j

Anna. I am sure you are talking about their guide prices; very different to a valuation given to an owner/prospective vendor. Their guide prices are cynically set low to suck bidders in who otherwise would not be able to afford a particular bike, in order to push up the selling price on sale day. Guide prices are definitely NOT valuations!

As for your 'valuation' based on a Bonnie price, they bear no relation to each other, where value is concerned. They may or may not be similar in value, but that would just be coincidence. I would leave it to the 'men in suits'!

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Hi Paul,

I faced a similar issue when I restored my M77, as most insurance books dont even show this model here in the USA . I opted for an "agreed value" insurance, where the insurance company will insure the bike at a value we both agree on. In my case, all my insurance company required was 2 written estimated by legitimate bike shops. I went to 2 local shops that knew me, they each asked me what number I thought the bike was worth, as the both knew that I knew more about the value of my bike than they would, as I knew the market on Nortons fairly well & I knew what the restoration cost me, Both shops used the price I suggested & the insurance company insured that value. I based my price on how much would it cost me if I had to replace the bike today exactly as it stands, then I added 10% for inflation & things I may have forgotten.

In reality, the insurance company isnt insuring your bike, they are insuring an amount of money that they may have to pay out & the risk of auctually having to pay it.

Obviously the insurance regulations are different in different countries & with different insurance carriers, but I would think if you had 2 estimates from 2 legitimate shops, they would see you are trying to be fair on the amount. Most shops will want a small fee for the time it takes to produce the documentation for you & that would certainly be fair.

Good luck,

Skip

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To the best of my research so far (since 1992)

I was surprised to learn that my 68 Atlas was not a "dunstall" since in 66 is the only year that the British govt. recognized Dunstall as a "maker" of bikes. In 67 a racing sanctioning body in UK also allowed Dunstall as a MFG.

Also the vast majority of "Dunstall prepped" Norton featherbed in this era the engine # did NOT match the frame VIN. The engines were pulled out and reworked to then be reinstalled in a subsequent rolling chassis. The Woodgate dunstall registry clearly showed this.

I have not studied Commando modified bikes a lot, since most represented Dunstall commando's I believe are just "add on Dunstall parts" bikes.

NOC verified my 68 Atlas is a Dunstall sold bike. My vin is 200 bikes after the start of commando.

http://atlanticgreen.com/dunstall.htm

If a 650SS is being represented as Dunstall it should have mostly all original parts and mods that Dunstall did or it (to me ) is nothing special.

IMO Just a talking point.

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http://atlanticgreen.com/dunstall.htm

If a 650SS is being represented as Dunstall it should have mostly all original parts and mods that Dunstall did or it (to me ) is nothing special.

IMO Just a talking point.

I believe Dunstall would sell you a bike in any state of tune. Even one with no race-prep. Just a standard bike tarted up with fibreglas, swept-backs, rear-sets and clip-ons. You didn't hava to have his high-lift camshaft or ported-and-polished head. This could all be done in a day and no need to remove the engine.

This would be a wise choice since the 650SS was one Norton that did not need Dunstall's help. Non-Dunstall 650SS's were busily winning 500 milers year after year with all standard body parts (like headlights) still attached.

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Previously david_comeau wrote:

If a 650SS is being represented as Dunstall it should have mostly all original parts and mods that Dunstall did or it (to me ) is nothing special.

IMO Just a talking point.

Wait, I just understood what you were saying. I am surprised that you don't think the 650SS in general is something special. But then you are turning an Atlas into a Combat.

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Hi Like i said before,the third owned who i contacted and showed him the bike confirmed to me that in his ownership it was in full Dunstall trim and was the fastest 650 he had ever riden,it still has a lot of the original parts on it.Paul

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"I am surprised that you don't think the 650SS in general is something special."

your words not mine.

OP "Does anyone know what the bike is worth and how many were made?."

Notice the OP is asking about a "dunstall" not 650SS.

I am replying to EXTRA special.....A Dunstall fully worked over as a domiracer that has been neutered... to me nothing EXTRA special over a 650SS.

Didn't think I mentioned my 66 atlas(combat).

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Previously david_comeau wrote:

"I am surprised that you don't think the 650SS in general is something special."

your words not mine.

OP "Does anyone know what the bike is worth and how many were made?."

Notice the OP is asking about a "dunstall" not 650SS.

I am replying to EXTRA special.....A Dunstall fully worked over as a domiracer that has been neutered... to me nothing EXTRA special over a 650SS.

Didn't think I mentioned my 66 atlas(combat).

I replied referring to the 650SS in the photo. That is all I have to go on.

I went to your website where that Dunstall 750 picture was from. That's how I found out about the poor Atlas and I jumped to a conclusion about who would do such a thing.

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Previously Jonathan Soons wrote:

Previously david_comeau wrote:

"I am surprised that you don't think the 650SS in general is something special."

your words not mine.

OP "Does anyone know what the bike is worth and how many were made?."

Notice the OP is asking about a "dunstall" not 650SS.

I am replying to EXTRA special.....A Dunstall fully worked over as a domiracer that has been neutered... to me nothing EXTRA special over a 650SS.

Didn't think I mentioned my 66 atlas(combat).

I replied referring to the 650SS in the photo. That is all I have to go on.

I went to your website where that Dunstall 750 picture was from. That's how I found out about the poor Atlas and I jumped to a conclusion about who would do such a thing.

What happened to my Dunstall massaged norton is not my doing....

The OP's bike looks very nice cosmetically and he should be proud. However If looking to cash in on extra "Dunstall" valuation then it needs all the domiracers stuff wheither drive train, mechanical, rolling chassis or bodywork cosmetics otherwise whats the point...ink on your registration papers?

My 68 Nortyon Atlas reworked and sold by Dunstall is a nice custom bike but is actually not nearly up to the hype of a domiracer since is is (IMO) a very mild street CAFE'. However it is totally complete as delivered and original low mileage.

I am the 4th owner and I got it in awful shape. It has only improved since I got it in 1992.

cheers

Dave

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My 68 Nortyon Atlas reworked and sold by Dunstall is a nice custom bike but is actually not nearly up to the hype of a domiracer since is is (IMO) a very mild street CAFE'. However it is totally complete as delivered and original low mileage.

I am the 4th owner and I got it in awful shape. It has only improved since I got it in 1992.

cheers

Dave

I am detuning my Atlas as much as I can. Doug Hele recommended a maximum compression of 7.5 to 1. I am going to try to achieve that if it means skimming a few thou off the top of my pistons. I have never heard of anything good coming from hot-rodding a 750. This fellow http://nycnorton.com/racer-2006/races in your neighbourhood. You might know him. He has cracked his featherbed many times. A Seeley frame also (with the same 750 motor) and yet he has spent a fortune on balancing. crankshaft, rods, etc. He deserves some prize for tenacity.

Peter Williams must have had a fresh motor for each meeting (and a fresh frame).

Your web site has been very helpful.

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Hi Paul, I would be delighted if i found that my SS was once a Puka Dunstall Dommy. However without all the dress up parts its only a very common SS with perhaps a few motor mods. No significant extra value as far as I can see.Was it a Dommyracer? ie a puka track machine? ,most unlikely, There were very few of those,Just a handfull.Would I dress it up again as a Dunstall? No way, I want to ride the thing ,not just pose at Cafe Racer meets.

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Skim the pistons? Couldnt you shim the base of the cylinder? I have seen metal base gaskets for this purpose.

All the best,

Skip

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Previously Skip Brolund wrote:

Skim the pistons? Couldnt you shim the base of the cylinder? I have seen metal base gaskets for this purpose.

All the best,

Skip

I agree that raising the barrels is the right thing to do but I have the massive high-top Commando pistons as I could not get the concave pistons I like. So I thought I would measure the thickness of the originalpiston top and reduce the thickness of the Commando pistons to match. I have not weighed them yet (or measured them) so I might be wrong about reducing the weight.

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It could also be that I have a set of skimmed down Commando barrels. I have to compare them to my scrap G15CS barrels which should be identical to Atlas. If they are Commando that would explain why the pistons stick out the top of the cylinders by just over a millimeter.

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Previously paul_wolf wrote:

I have a 1966 650ss with Paul Dunstall`s name and address as the first owner in the buff log book and have records showing that this was an origanal Domiracer and have a photo of it in 1972 in it`s Domiracer trim.The person i bought it off about 5 years ago was beat mates the John Hudson of Norton and i have lots of letters stating what work John did on the bike like rebuild the engine & gearbox and supplying the last set of barrels to come out of the Norton factory and had to be picked up from Andover for £18.00.It seems that John and Chris (who i bought it off) took off the tank,seat & fairing because of the bad condition and replaced it with standard 6500ss parts.I don`t know what cam is in it but it goes like a bat out of hell up to about 90 in third.It still has it`s TLS front brake and inclosed rear chain case that was in the 1972 photo.I have never seen a genuine Paul Dunstall 650cc Domie racer bike for sale and i belive any bike advertised as a Paul Dunstall Domie racer that don`t have his name & addres in the log book is a copy.I also have a 1966 copy of Motorcycle Mechanics who are road testing a Paul Dunstall 650ss Domie racer and the reg number is 5 numbers away from mine i have added a photo of the bike as it looks know.Does anyone know what the bike is worth and how many were made?.Thanks Paul Wolf

Hello The orginal 650cc machine was the Norton Manxman from nov 7th 1960 and It was tested in the USA by cycle world back in 1962 a stock Manxman 650 was used in this test and in Thrid gear it hit 103mph and 119 in top and it had the 8 inch high bars on the Heniz Kragler 650 of 1961 the won the Pebble beach races , the engine and gearbox was fitted into a manx fame and running gear and the engne had been modifed some what so was the gearbox and clutch , and it could get up to speeds of 150mph the only conteneder in the race was HD 750TT machine but it did not have the speed or the handling of the Norton by then and the modifaction you engine has been though you should have a good 650twin and my prices are the guide start prices the 650ss was alway a better motorcycle than the Triumph Bonnievillie 650 of the same years , and was fast than the Triumph too , and had better handling

If I were you I would not part with it , the 650 was the best of the Norton twins now engine parts like pistons and barrels cylinder heads are getting very hard to find, getting a engine balanced right plays a big factor , Yours Anna J

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Previously Jonathan Soons wrote:

Previously paul_wolf wrote:

Previously charles_bovington wrote:

Why don't you contact 'Factory Records' with details of engine and frame number? Records show dealer and first owner, if my memory serves me well. Similarly, the archivist at the registering authority can, for a fee, supply photocopy of registration record.

The term ' domiracer' does seem to be bandied around rather loosely.

Hi,The factory records show that Paul Dunstall was ths first owner who then turned it into a Domie racer,the engine,frame & gearbox are all maching the recordes and i have a photo of the bike in1972 in red with Domie racer on the fairing.Paul

It is difficult to establish a price based on a 40 year old photograph of a different motorcycle. Even if most of the parts were used to build this one which is a very desirable and valuable street bike in almost standard trim. The modifications are very good ones: alloy rims, hump seat, finned intakes, Commando brake. It is better to sell the bike in front of you now and hide the photo. Would you tell the prospective buyer "This bike was thrashed to death on the race-track but I assure you it is fine now"? And the crash-damaged fairing?

I would make up a photo of a little old lady in Ventnor, IOW riding it to church on a Sunday, which she was wont to do. That would be my ideal previous owner. Not a string of London greasers (God bless them) who overtightened a different head bolt every week-end and spent their pocket money on heli-coils (and beer). I was there. I know that of which thereof I speak.

dont buy any bike from Ventnor! I have a cottage near there and, let me tell you, those hills are murder on the clutch. Not to mention the salt....surprise

FWIW I hate all this 'believed to have once been glimpsed by Hugh Hefner' etc stuff, it lets values occlude the real purpose of owning an old bike- the rattle the cods off it out on the road, where it belongs, philosophy. I'm sure most of my bikes have increased in value, but if I ride them they break, need fixing, tyres, insurance, so it's irrelevant, no ? There's a ex- Kenny Roberts flat tracker I once owned doing the circuit ( I know Kenny, by chance and he's amazed y most of the claims about his supposed old rides) at the moment. The 'history' claims are becoming more and more outrageous by the year. I know the truth- it was a frame and bare motor built by Shell Thuett when I got it, so quite how the 'raced as it is at the Sacremento mile' statement is anything but fiction I'd like to know. The 'completely original number boards' I had made by a local sign writers!

History is bunk, as someone smarter than me once wrote.

cheers

ATG

paul

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I have an original 650 SS engine in the back of the shop. I knew the bike from new and have checked the numbers and am sure of what I have. One of these days I will rebuild it.

I am currently running an 850 with the decompression plate under the cylinders. The lower compression makes for much easier kickover and there is plenty of torque. High compression and big cams are not needed to get good street performance from a Norton and there is far less stress on everything.

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A stock Manxman achieved 119mph in 1962, you say Anna. That's frankly a disappointment. You have always advocated, explained and led us to believethat the Manxman was far more highly tuned and significantly faster than the 650SS. However your numbers do not support that. In 1962 The Motor Cycle dated 15th Februarypublished a test of the 650SS and they got 118mph out of it. This was timed at MIRA.Given the standard of testing facilities in those days I would suggest that there was frankly no difference in performance. Indeed I would go so far as to suggest that if there wastop speed flattery then it would most likely be from the Americans.

Then the "tuned special" gave speeds "up to" 150mph you say. From 119mph they had to find an additional 31mph, an increase of some 26% in top speed. From an engineers view point what do you calculate the increase in power needed to makethis significant power increase?

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Haha Mike, you actually believe the bikes the press got to test were standard? I've got some really nice magic beans you could purchase! The British factories, as well as HD, were notorious for this practice. Bizarrely, the Italians just gave you a bike off the line, often leading to the myth of unreliability as they weren't set up for testing in the race shop!

cheers

atg

paul

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Haha Mike, you actually believe the bikes the press got to test were standard? I've got some really nice magic beans you could purchase! The British factories, as well as HD, were notorious for this practice. Bizarrely, the Italians just gave you a bike off the line, often leading to the myth of unreliability as they weren't set up for testing in the race shop!

cheers

atg

paul

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I read an interview with the Entrant of the 650 that won the Thruxton 500 race 3 years in a row. He said that he tested standard bikes from Dealers stock of the big manufacturers, The Norton was the fastest at over 120 . He also said that he kept the tune standard for reliability with special attention to primary chain (which was known to be the weakest part).The machines only real weakness was the handling! which was caused by a weight bias to one side and needed the rider to compensate.I seem to remember a comment from Phill Read about this.

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Previously robert_tuck wrote:

I read an interview with the Entrant of the 650 that won the Thruxton 500 race 3 years in a row. He said that he tested standard bikes from Dealers stock of the big manufacturers, The Norton was the fastest at over 120 . He also said that he kept the tune standard for reliability with special attention to primary chain (which was known to be the weakest part).The machines only real weakness was the handling! which was caused by a weight bias to one side and needed the rider to compensate.I seem to remember a comment from Phill Read about this.

The dealer/entrant in question was Sid Lawton and weakness of handling is a relative term. I believe the drive side to timing side balance was not perfect because of the weight of the alternator. So to compensate they decided to respoke the wheels to ensure that the left/right balance was perfect. The three wins in a row speak for the effectiveness of this step

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I remember now, Phil said he had to put all his weight on the footrest as it was only happy turning one way. After Triumph got the Bonneville to handle they switched to that and were winning still.A good bike ,a good rider and thorough preparation was the secret. Don't think the make was so important. The question was, which was the fastest and did the dealers/factory have to cheat to do 120? .I think the answer is ,they were all about the same if properly set up.

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All road tests should be taken with a large pinch of salt. An anorexic, in skin right leathers, weighing seven and a half stones, will obviously go quicker than any normal rider!

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Previously robert_tuck wrote:

Hi Paul, I would be delighted if i found that my SS was once a Puka Dunstall Dommy. However without all the dress up parts its only a very common SS with perhaps a few motor mods. No significant extra value as far as I can see.Was it a Dommyracer? ie a puka track machine? ,most unlikely, There were very few of those,Just a handfull.Would I dress it up again as a Dunstall? No way, I want to ride the thing ,not just pose at Cafe Racer meets.

Hi,It was not a track bike but a Domiracer in full trim for the road and i would like to find all the bits like tank fairing, seat and so on to return it to it`s original state,but i know what you are saying i don`t think i could now manage riding with clip ons & rear sets at my age.Cheers Paul

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HiPaul, If you have other bikes for normal club stuff then a full dress Dunstall would be on my list of desirable additions to the stable. The Dunstall Atlas with the disc brakes would be the one. I well remember watching the Magazine Road test bike (136 mph!) pulling away from Johnstons on the A20 Kent , It went away from me and out of sight in a blink and only changed gear once. Very impressive . My Atlas came to me with most of the Dunstall bits fitted ,all sold for peanuts to get back to standard.Still have the Borranni rims though.

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Previously robert_tuck wrote:

I read an interview with the Entrant of the 650 that won the Thruxton 500 race 3 years in a row. He said that he tested standard bikes from Dealers stock of the big manufacturers, The Norton was the fastest at over 120 . He also said that he kept the tune standard for reliability with special attention to primary chain (which was known to be the weakest part).The machines only real weakness was the handling! which was caused by a weight bias to one side and needed the rider to compensate.I seem to remember a comment from Phill Read about this.

Hello Rob yes your dead right the Primary chain and Clutch and Gearbox cannot cope with the power band from the 650 motors why thy built a 750 with the same gearbox and Clutch beats me! no wonder they had vibrations , Peter willams said the Gearbox was not up to the job, but Norton kept making it with minor mods

if you fit a Bob Newby Clutch and belt drive More more problems ! yours Anna J

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The Atlas, when produced and by design, didn't have any more power than the 650SS. Thedrive train on the Atlas isn't known for being problematical other than the challenge of keeping oil in the primary chaincase, a problem which occurs throughout the range. Stretching the 650 motor to 745cc was, let's face it, a bit of a bodge but dictated by the marketing people in response to demand from the USA. As for vibration, having the same stroke and rods as the 650, any increase is down to the heavier pistons - anyone have the comparative weights of a 650 and Atlas piston? Can't be a huge amount in it.

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Previously michael_jobson wrote:

A stock Manxman achieved 119mph in 1962, you say Anna. That's frankly a disappointment. You have always advocated, explained and led us to believethat the Manxman was far more highly tuned and significantly faster than the 650SS. However your numbers do not support that. In 1962 The Motor Cycle dated 15th Februarypublished a test of the 650SS and they got 118mph out of it. This was timed at MIRA.Given the standard of testing facilities in those days I would suggest that there was frankly no difference in performance. Indeed I would go so far as to suggest that if there wastop speed flattery then it would most likely be from the Americans.

Then the "tuned special" gave speeds "up to" 150mph you say. From 119mph they had to find an additional 31mph, an increase of some 26% in top speed. From an engineers view point what do you calculate the increase in power needed to makethis significant power increase?

Hello do not forget the Manxman has 8 inch high bars on doing 119mph you have go your self and see what is like at that speed with 8inch high bars , the race bike had 5 gears by shaftligner and was tuned by Hienz Kragler and it had a pair of Amal GP carbs on , and racing tank and seat drop bars and rearsets and half faring too this all makes a big diffrence you know, and racing Norton twin would rev to up too 8,000 rpm in the red line yours anna j

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Oh dear more nonsense. You claim to be an engineer, so tell me how much more power is required to get an old Manzman or whatever from about 119mph to the 150 you claim. then please explain how that increase of speed from standard to the "tuned" spec is achieved by way of engine mods. Forget clip ons and rearsets they are a red herring. as is the 8 inch rise of the bars. the rider would lie prone on the bike and simply hold the bars near the botton with one hand and probably the fork leg wit the other in the manner of the Flat Track racers.

Sorry but frankly a Manxman at 119mph is no better that the 118 of a 650SS which was achieved with a 3/4 strong head wind. A 650 Norton is a 650 Norton regardless of the shade of blue.

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Hee hee. Did you spot the subtle spelling mistakes.

This is me done on this thread which started out so well, as is often the case, and has been corrupted by the incessant outlandish claims about a blue Norton.

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I do believe that Paul Dunstall is now 75 years young. Plus apart from 'Blue Manxman' he is mentioned in more of these NOC Forum threads than any other words.

 

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