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Ethanol

There is no Ethanol free petrol without a fair ride near where I live. What Ethanol protection do others use in their fuel?

I have been looking at Millers EPS Ethanol Protection.

What will they put in fuel next? Roger

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A splash of 2 stroke oil is what my long-past-their-scrap-by-date bikes get by on. Shouldn't a 961 be ethanol proof being a modern design?

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Previously graham_leblond wrote:

Im sure his private life is his own but where Roger lived would assist Wink

Well spotted, it tells us what Graham is mostly thinking about.

I live East Dorset. I would really like to know what additive to use as I am not sure fuel companies can always be trusted.

Thanks Roger

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OK, listen in:

There is only one brand of E0 pump fuel that I know of, and that is not available in Scotland, The Teesside distribution area and that even includes Ripon in North Yorkshire. (Avoid it) And the South West that I believe to be Devon and Cornwall.

The fuel is Esso Supreme Synergy + 97 Ron and has a red label. I have found that the ESSO EN228 (5% Ethanol) has a blue label and NO +

East Dorset; you could be OK but check out your nearest Esso but NOT one with a Tesco express shop, this is Tesco fuel.

I buy mine from Harrogate and Tadcaster, where here I filled up the car only today.

I wouldn't put that bio solvent in anything I own!

You get a better mpg from E0 too.

If you are desperate for E0, you can go into a large garden machinery shop and buy a gallon (About £20) of Aspen, this is pure petrol that can be safely left in Lawnmowers etc without fear of ethanol damage over a lay up period, bit like our bikes. Ethanol proof or not, it will not stop phase separation!

Avoid EN228.

Esso have told me that they have no intention of adding Ethanol to this fuel. (But keep watching that label)

What next? Actually there is a similar sounding renewable that does not create the damage of ethanol but currently too expensive to produce.

Leaving the EU should help reduce the pressure on ethanol legislation, however, it will always be there until the Ed Miliband 2008 Climate change Act is rescinded. (Too big to fail?) With it is the RFfTO : Renewable fuels for Transport Obligation the reason why we are in this mess.

The Green blob takes away your choices, just look how Hillary Benn imposed cr*p and expensive light bulbs on us! Don't let the bug*ers take your Norton too. Thank you ESSO!

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Previously Neil Wyatt wrote:

OK, listen in:

There is only one brand of E0 pump fuel that I know of, and that is not available in Scotland, The Teesside distribution area and that even includes Ripon in North Yorkshire. (Avoid it) And the South West that I believe to be Devon and Cornwall.

The fuel is Esso Supreme Synergy + 97 Ron and has a red label. I have found that the ESSO EN228 (5% Ethanol) has a blue label and NO +

East Dorset; you could be OK but check out your nearest Esso but NOT one with a Tesco express shop, this is Tesco fuel.

I buy mine from Harrogate and Tadcaster, where here I filled up the car only today.

I wouldn't put that bio solvent in anything I own!

You get a better mpg from E0 too.

If you are desperate for E0, you can go into a large garden machinery shop and buy a gallon (About £20) of Aspen, this is pure petrol that can be safely left in Lawnmowers etc without fear of ethanol damage over a lay up period, bit like our bikes. Ethanol proof or not, it will not stop phase separation!

Avoid EN228.

Esso have told me that they have no intention of adding Ethanol to this fuel. (But keep watching that label)

What next? Actually there is a similar sounding renewable that does not create the damage of ethanol but currently too expensive to produce.

Leaving the EU should help reduce the pressure on ethanol legislation, however, it will always be there until the Ed Miliband 2008 Climate change Act is rescinded. (Too big to fail?) With it is the RFfTO : Renewable fuels for Transport Obligation the reason why we are in this mess.

The Green blob takes away your choices, just look how Hillary Benn imposed cr*p and expensive light bulbs on us! Don't let the bug*ers take your Norton too. Thank you ESSO!

Hello Neil and other fellows.

I read with interest the above articles on the bad news regarding Ethanol.

It has no advantage over petrol except that it burns amight slower than petrol. Gives a more steam engine type push on the piston.

To come at Ethanol from a different direction.

Making fibres for the manufacture of heavy wearing cloth. They use plant fibres like. Kapok, Jute,and Bamboo etc. However making such fibres for cloth from a more plentiful source ie Trees. Yes. By stripping the wood fibres from trees and changing it chemically to wood cellulose and then onto garment fibre. With the aid of an acid and ethanol, thats how its done. However. After which the acid is separated and the ethanol is a waste product and snapped up by our chemical giants and put into petrol for their profit.

Ethanol can be removed from petrol using water and a big tin can.

Ethanol is highly hydroscopic.

With a big petrol tank pour in a pint of warm tap water . Then fill it up with your petrol. Put the cap on give it a good shake then leave it for a couple of days. The Ethanol absorbs the water and becomes separated from the petrol. Now. Just in so crack open the petrol tap and let a pint and a half drip, drip from the tank and when its water free, it will be just proper petrol.

Yes guys. Its a big ball ache of a thing to do.

Sorry to bore you.

Kind regards to all fellow members

Martin Jones Hull of EY. NOC

iT

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Thanks Martin,

Of course, Humberside has the biggest ethanol plant in the UK since the Teesside plant was mothballed and they are pushing hard for E10! More profit for them, more grief for us.

The BIG problem with the ethanol removal method is that ethanol increases octane and much of this petrol is sub standard, obviously low octane is better with the solvent removed if leaving it to settle in your tank, but at a cost.

The Aspen fuel I referred to comes from Sweden and although expensive, it is E0.

The best bet however is to fill up with Esso Synergy Supreme + (97 Ron), good stuff to start with. (Red label)

Out in the car, I just fill a couple of plastic cans...Simples.

Use it or lose it. It's all we have left at the pumps I believe.

I hope all have this message now.

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Hello roger,

I suggest that you check your handbook to be sure butethanol is not likely to cause any damage to a modern machine.Ethanol has been allowed in petrol for probably the last twenty years so all vehicles manufacturers should have produced accordingly. It is only old classic vehicles with fibreglass tanks etc which have problems.

Patrick

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Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

Hello roger,

I suggest that you check your handbook to be sure butethanol is not likely to cause any damage to a modern machine.Ethanol has been allowed in petrol for probably the last twenty years so all vehicles manufacturers should have produced accordingly. It is only old classic vehicles with fibreglass tanks etc which have problems.

Patrick

Sadly not true, there maybe less problems on modern bikes but not none, cue issues with Ducati plastic petrol tanks (just Google it for lots of examples) and even BMW's.

http://www.cycleworld.com/real-world-look-at-alcohol-in-your-tank#page-3

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Very true with regard to new vehicles being damaged by ehanol. Bmw,triumph,Ducati,Aprilia,Guzzi and others all suffer bubbling and distortion of their plastic fuel tanks. All made by Acerbis I believe.

I had a low mileage multistrada which dumped its fuel on my shed floor due to ethanol distorting the base flange. I could only fix it using aircraft sealanr. In America they accept there is an issue and replace the tank. Here they deny responsibility and deny ethanol causes harm.

Triumph? 955 sprint tank swelling up so that it no longer fitted the frame spar. Triumph deny ethanol is the issue and refuse to investigate. Vosa likewise..I tried!!

Bmw? 1150rs. Swollen tank and bubbling....not through ethanol of course.

Nowadays I would not touch any bike with a plastic tank,in fact the manufacturers have mainly gone back to metal..I wonder why if there is no known link?

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It seems very strange that only motorcycles appear to be affected by ethanol. If my memory serves me right Ducati were taken to court in the US (and lost) for continuing to use a grade of plastic which was not suitable for American fuel despite a Notice being served by the appropriate authority notifying the use of higher percentage ethanol years before. It would seem that in some cases at least motorcycle manufacturers were at faultin continuing to use outdated technology and were passing off shoddy manufactured goods.

I have a modern high performance but with low usage BMW sports car (handbook says up to 10% ethanol acceptable) which has performed faultlessly over the last three years; our Renault Megane (up to 10% acceptable)has performed faultlessly as well over the last five years as have the lawn mowers. The lawn mowers sit unused for months -October to March- and start up without any problems or special servicing. We have several classic cars, MGBs, Volvo P1800 and a Morris Isisas well and all start up with no problems. In fact only the Morris has shown any re-action to ethanol. It needs the petrol filter regularly cleaned ascurrent petrol makes a good job of cleaning out the petrol tank and fuel lines and the dirt gets caught up in the filter.

None of the Norton Jubilees or Navigators have any real problems either. So ethanol is getting the blame forproblems not of it's making.

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I agree that motorcycles suffer more however I cannot agree that cars are unaffected. there is too much anecdotal and direct evidence within individual forums to suggest that our reliance on ethanol is causing issues.

My old bikes have to be drained if left unused otherwise the fuel eats zinc,copper and brass. the water residue will separate and rot the tanks. old cars suffer similar fates.

The use of ethanol is not new.We used during and after the war but in those days vehicles were less reliable and regularly being stripped for a decode etc hence parts were renewed.

Today we use hard valve seats,special valve material and injection systems designed to cope with a designated ethanol content.As a result they are reliable. even car fuel tanks are made of better grade plastics.

Mowers etc will run on virtually any petrol you can find. my old side valve mower is often forced to run on left over premix from my chainsaw..another machine known to suffer from ethanol as it rots the fuel lines!

I researched ethanol at length after the Ducati problems.I sent a thesis to my M.P. But he could not fight my corner due to i.e. Being an E.U.dictat! I am not a scientist but using logic combined with documentary evidence there are grounds to say the we suffer as a result of the fuel we are forced to use in our old vehicles.New are less of an issue.

The truth is that we have to use the damn stuff to appease U.S. legislation which is designed to keep their farmers in business growing plants to make the ethanol. maybe not entirely true but close to the mark.

Even Vosa a feel there is a problem but will not act without a huge number of complaints.I offered to donate my Ducati to them if they could use it to prove a point. they declined as it was insufficient evidence!

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Well said, John.

Patrick, if you are happy to use ethanol in your fuel then one shouldn't argue against that and respect your choice. The issue is one of choice, a choice the Green blob do not want us to have. Remember Hillary Benn withdrawing a decent light bulb from the domestic market, without a choice! Thank goodness for Esso!

Patrick suggested that Ethanol (This time around) has been with us for 20 years, well not in the UK, barely ten years. The evidence suggests that Tesco and Morison's (Super markets) were first to introduce ethanol blends in 2006 and a problem soon found with failed oxygen meters failing due to this stuff (Ethanol 35% oxygen) being open to the atmosphere. (South East corridor) They didn't know the extent of the hygroscopic nature of this stuff back then. Tell you what though, someone paid a fortune for those breakdowns and expensive parts to keep it as quiet as possible. They never came clean)

The Petseal in two of my three sealed tanks, by 2007 disolved and caused a lot of damage, not in my 16H because I had not filled it up during this ethanol introduction period. That Petseal is as solid today and is a no go zone for ethanol. In the UK, as said we have only one pump E0 fuel, keep that in mind.

The US of A has been mentioned, I have driven a fair bit there and always found E0 fuel. Some states such as Maine have banned ethanol, just as the Aviation authority has done, for good reason. In Green States such as CA, (Boxer has much to answer for) E0 is a little more difficult to find. However, you will find E0 at any Marina, fuel known as Marine quality! Check out the law suits and the problems with moulded in fibreglass boat fuel tanks. A problem when a certain fuel is imposed by stealth!

In the UK they thought they would get away with 5% by stealth and nobody would notice. (A bit like Gordon Brown withdrawing the 10p starting tax rate) Well we were soon to find out but it was put into law (RFfTO) that at 5% it didn't need to be marked up with a warning and no liability as a result. Buyer beware indeed! That is why, John that nobody is interested in your ethanol damage or mine. Total scam!

The FHBVC is a part of the establishment and a big part of the problem, their support of E5 as some sort of legacy fuel is an example of what actual users of old vehicles are up against. How long before we are left with just museum pieces? And all the riding will be in lovely countries such as E0, NZ?

I can go on but that's it for now but just remember this, failure is when you give up. Don't let the Green blob get away with it again, Choice is my theme this time.

Neil.

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Neil,

Roger asked a reasonable question probably because he had heard so many scare stories about ethanol. He has no need to worry about his modernNorton 961as it will most probably be constructed to comply with the Construction & Use Regulations. We should apologise to him for hi-jacking his thread.

Petrol tanks by law had to bemade of steel from way back in 1973; the exception was for CERTAIN plastic tanks which were supposed to be specifically tested to comply with the Regulations current at the time. Ethanol was allowed for use at 5% from I think 1988 and it was certainly introduced to UK petrol from 2002.

I was a high mileage motorist (30,000 miles per year) for a lot of years up to say 2010. I have never had an ethanol related problem on any of my cars and they were all petrol engined.

Patrick

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Current engines should not have problems , thats not to say they won't. Two vehicles on my drive have faults that a competant designer would not have allowed 80 years ago. Mercedes Benz and Ford, Has anyone heard of these names before? do they have any history in making cars?. I am not confident that they are fully on board with issues that infrequent use with ethanol brings.

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Well done to you, Patrick for not having an ethanol problem to date. Are you going to apologise to those that have suffered loss? And are you looking forward to E10?

I have studied the ethanol problem since I became a victim in 2006/7. We know about Cleveland Discol in the 60's for example but I don't see even an ethanol discussion in the UK before 2005 so where you got 1988 and 2002 from, I really don't know?

There might not have been such a big issue if the stakeholders, government and fuel companies had been honest and told us what was going on. Think of all those wrecked fibreglass tanks but worse still the danger of a tank leaking onto a hot engine.

I note an increase in vehicle fires, just recently a TVR went up in flames not too far from me. Ethanol requires a different kind of foam to attack ethanol flames. This is dangerous stuff.

But still there is NO long term cure for phase separation!

The stabaliser chemicals such as those endorsed by FBHVC are not the answer, they just slow down the process.

One more time, thank you Esso!

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Oops! My apols for my earlier typo but I see I'm not the only one. The correct term is hygroscopic (capable of absorbing water) rather than hydroscopic which I think is something to do with viewing things underwater. But maybe that's what Martin meant! On a more se note does the presence of ethanol mean that if the bike sits there for a month or two without use the petrol tank will have layer of water in the bottom or is the water absorbed into the fuel - giving rise to tons of water vapour in the exhaust?
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George. The water separates from the fuel, and being heavier, sits on the bottom of the tank. This in turn can lead to corrosion of the tank, and water going into the carburettor when you next turn the petrol on, causing starting issues. Meanwhile, any fuel which is sitting in the carb/fuel lines will be doing it's best to dissolve them. I have found it necessary to sonically clean the carburettor before start-up in such a situation.

Best thing is, if you know you will not be riding the bike for a while, switch the petrol off up the road before you get home, running it dry. Good timing is handy here, or you may face a bit of a push...! Then, drain the tank.

Ian

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Hi Neil

I always use BP ultimate on my M50(assuming it was ethanol free), I even used to ask at the BP in Ripon (near the clock tower) if it was zero E and was advised it was. also the BP near Pannal (leaving Harrogate) Have I been told porkys?

Regards John O

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Contrary to the popular belief there are very places where Ethanol Free fuel is available. According to Esso the nearest to my own location is 40 miles away.

BP Customer Services told me that all BP grades contain 5% Ethanol

There was a lot of discussion and information on the forum a few months ago which can be found using the search facility.

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Working my way up:

Richard, You are correct, All BP pump fuels sadly now contain 5% ethanol. This changed from Summer 2016 when they advertised their new fuels!

My advice would be to take a couple of cans with you next time you are passing E0 in a car or fill the bike. It is all you can do, other than have expensive racing fuel delivered or the purchase of Aspen.

John, depends when you asked them. After Summer 2016 it was all E5. I did read one paper where forecourt staff were ordered not to get involved in discussions on ethanol with customers. The Esso in Bilton, Harrogate, on the A59, opposite Majestic wine is not too far away and they dispense Synergy Supreme+ (97 Ron)

Ian, your advice is spot on if you are left with no choice but E5. So much for choice!

George, my understanding of phase separation is that you will be left with a layer of water and ethanol at the bottom of your tank. Not for me thanks.

And Patrick, I think you are splitting hairs a bit here. BS4040 is the grade for 4* Leaded. The problem is, though technically legally available, I don't know anyone who sells it now. I used to buy mine from Northern Energy at the top of the hill on the Ripon Road, just outside of Harrogate. Unfortunately there was only one supplier, 'Bayford Thrust' who mixed their 4* Leaded using E0 Super unleaded. By 2012, Bayford Thrust would not break bulk and would only deliver a full tanker, Northern Energy could not take this amount on one pump and hence I have not seen pump 4* leaded since. The standard for BS4040 does mean E0. Incidentally, the standard for ordinary unleaded (95 RON usually) is BS7070. All of this grade is now EN228 or 5% Ethanol. In other words 100% no choice at this grade! For the record, Murco were the last company to offer E0 not super unleaded. They had just one refinery but Murco is no more.

Where are our choices? Remember Hillary Benn taking away your choice of light bulbs, this is no different. What are we going to do, wait for E10 and go home?

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Incidentally, Information is sketchy (Intentionally a dogs dinner) and I spent many hours getting to the bottom of what is going on. If the government can get away with selling ethanol they will because it will help them meet their renewable target. The lower mpg will mean more visits to the pumps and hence more ethanol sold.

Thank you Esso.

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Hello For what this is worth We're all slaves to thebig oil Giants But up to now I had no Trouble with Ethanol In my Norton Manxman650. But these Machineswere built for the America Market and Ethanol was around back then so something has changed in the fuel mix or most is coming from growing palm oil, wheatand sugarcane mixture yours anna j

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Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Hello For what this is worth We're all slaves to thebig oil Giants But up to now I had no Trouble with Ethanol In my Norton Manxman650. But these Machineswere built for the America Market and Ethanol was around back then so something has changed in the fuel mix or most is coming from growing palm oil, wheatand sugarcane mixture yours anna j

As my father often said to me,'its not often your right, but you are wrong again'. Ethanol was not used in gasoline , either in USA or here when your Manxman was built. Turn of the milenium is a better date for widespread use.

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About right Charles for the US big Agg lobby. And 2005 in the UK, spread Nationally by 2007.

Anna, Palm oil is not in ethanol as far as I am aware but very much is included with bio diesel.

Imagine burning down the Indonesian rain forests to plant Palm oil!

That's what is happening, even without the smoke, how Green is that?

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Took my carb down yesterday to unblock the by pass , the bottom of the chamber pitted and furry with corrosion.Not something seen with real petrol.Bike is used at least every few weeks. This damage is from way back before we were aware .

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Robert, remember that ethanol was introduced by stealth, we were not told or advised of its introduction, we found out!

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Previously Charles Bovington wrote:

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Hello For what this is worth We're all slaves to thebig oil Giants But up to now I had no Trouble with Ethanol In my Norton Manxman650. But these Machineswere built for the America Market and Ethanol was around back then so something has changed in the fuel mix or most is coming from growing palm oil, wheatand sugarcane mixture yours anna j

As my father often said to me,'its not often your right, but you are wrong again'. Ethanol was not used in gasoline , either in USA or here when your Manxman was built. Turn of the milenium is a better date for widespread use.

Hello I think you will have to read Wikipedia On history of Fuels In the USA and You find Henry Ford Ran His First Quadricycle On Pure Ethanol in 1909 and all his Model T.s ran on Ethanol from day one, in 1970s they changed to E10 but there was still small company's selling 85% ethanol So Do your research before putting finger in gear have fun yours Anna JAttachments load-1.php
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Dear dear dear,

OK so ethanol was used by Henry Ford in quadricycle inin 1896,ethanol was used as an octane booster in small quantities until replaced by tetra ethyl lead. Until the late 1970's vrtually no alcohol was used for fuels after which as lead was phased out to be replacedn not by alcohol but by ethers. Ethanol comes back in the 1990's as concern arrises over the use of these ethers.

So I rest my case.

P.S. Since a very large oil company pays my pension, I do do my research.

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Previously Neil Wyatt wrote:

Thanks Martin,

Of course, Humberside has the biggest ethanol plant in the UK since the Teesside plant was mothballed and they are pushing hard for E10! More profit for them, more grief for us.

The BIG problem with the ethanol removal method is that ethanol increases octane and much of this petrol is sub standard, obviously low octane is better with the solvent removed if leaving it to settle in your tank, but at a cost.

The Aspen fuel I referred to comes from Sweden and although expensive, it is E0.

The best bet however is to fill up with Esso Synergy Supreme + (97 Ron), good stuff to start with. (Red label)

Out in the car, I just fill a couple of plastic cans...Simples.

Use it or lose it. It's all we have left at the pumps I believe.

I hope all have this message now.

Hello Neil.

You are 100% correct.

BP Chemicals at Saltend Hull, manufacture it by the tonn.

This evening I was talking to their retired chief chemical engineer. He told me that its even in in the make up of Ginn.

Cheers

Martin Jones

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Thanks Martin,

The people at Hull are pushing hard for E10, maybe the gin will help them meet their own target. Hope they can find a home for all this solvent. (Not in our petrol)

And Anna, what has 1909 and the Ford Model T to do with ethanol today and a Norton 961? Limited availability of E0 is a part of the problem but phase separation is an issue even using ethanol proof materials if the bike is left standing for a period.

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Last month I started up a BSA which has been sitting with a half full petrol tank for 16 years in the corner of a damp shed. I didn't even strip the carb. I am tempted to bottle and sell off this last precious pre-ethanol petrol before nipping down to the petrol station for a fill up. I don't think I could get away with leaving a tank of present-day petrol in a tank for that long and still expect the bike to run. Progress.

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Unleaded petrol will ruin all "Classic" petrol engines, oh, sorry ethanol! Same paranoia! Learn how to live with it, or buy a modern machine. To date, no one has yet explained why Discol (10% ethanol) did no harm, to motor vehicles, back in the 50's. (And yes, I was riding then)

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And the 60's, John.

I explained this a while ago, like most of the facts I have had to repeat:

Back then folks didn't tend to have a shed full of bikes and cars etc, but usually one bread and butter machine never left standing for long. Add to that, I believe Cleveland Discol was the only supplier of petrol containing ethanol and so there was a good chance that this would be diluted with the E0 fuel in all other pumps. A very different situation from today when a large part of the UK has no E0 fuel. If Discol was that good then why was it discontinued?

Again, John, if you want to live with this rubbish then be my guest, your choice. But what about the choices of us that want some decent fuel that will not damage our motorcycles and have to drain the tanks in a lay up period? What about the increased running costs of a lower MPG, short shelf life and replacement ethanol proof parts etc?

Divided we fall, that what you want?

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Lets be realistic for a moment.

I think it would be naive to expect that a few grubby classic vehicle/lawnmower enthusiasts are going to change the money making policies of huge multi-national oil companies and the governments that reside in their pockets.

Use the money you save on your road tax (uk) or rego (nz) or whatever country you're in that gives generous road user discounts to drivers of old junk, to ethanol-proof your vehicle. Ethanol isn't going anywhere, this isn't defeatist, it's realistic.

If you're worried about seperation you're obviously not using your bike enough, how much petrol are you buying a year then? Two gallons? I'm sure BP really want your business and will banish evil ethanol forthwith.

Tanks with straight petrol condensate and rust if not used, drain the tank if you use something that seldom.

Leaded fuel went away to be replaced by carcinogenic benzene, we survived despite the doom and gloom at the time, paid for hardened valve seats, retarded the timing, built a bridge, got over it.

Modern vehicle companies will adapt to increasing ethanol content, better materials, more adequate testing. They're not bothered.

Anyway, ethanol tastes better than benzene, it's not all bad.

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Previously Gordon Johnston wrote:

Last month I started up a BSA which has been sitting with a half full petrol tank for 16 years in the corner of a damp shed. I didn't even strip the carb. I am tempted to bottle and sell off this last precious pre-ethanol petrol before nipping down to the petrol station for a fill up. I don't think I could get away with leaving a tank of present-day petrol in a tank for that long and still expect the bike to run. Progress.

16 years on half a tank? I rest my case.

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Anyone, who can afford to keep half a dozen, or more, bikes sitting in their garage can afford to ethanol proof them. If they are that worried, the simple answer is, drain the tank after a run. If you can't live with the fuel is available, there are many other hobbies out there (including politics, for those trying to shout down all opposition to their views). Discol was not the only fuel containing alcohol on sale in the post war years. Most petrol was of such poor quality that de-carbonising was recommended every two and a half thousand miles.

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John, for the record, I have a degree in GeoPolitics but I'd rather focus on Norton related issues regarding this substance.

Just for you, I will tell you that the only reason oil companies have been politically forced into adding ethanol is to help meet government renewable targets and nothing else. (Windmills and solar panels all a part of these targets)

Once again, this is about choice and choices being taken away, I already mentioned light bulbs as another example.

But with a growing world population and many in the third world going hungry, (Usually too many people and too busy fighting each other) should we be turning crops into ethanol when the world is awash with oil? (Mombiot's 'Peak Oil' anyone?)

Martyn, for the record, NZ doesn't have an ethanol problem and so why should Kiwis want to spend a fortune on ethanol proofing their bikes and draining tanks? Waste of money and waste of time that could be better spent riding. You say ethanol is here to stay but it has been here before and went away and I believe without subsidies (Paid for by the tax payer to meet silly targets to keep some Greens happy) it will go away again as unsustainable.

Yes, modern vehicle manufacturers will adapt but I'm talking of Norton's, most of them old, but even a 961 will suffer phase separation if left standing and that could be for a number of reasons. (Ill health, too much work, shortage of cash, undergoing repairs, etc) I have better things to do than drain and refill tanks when that shouldn't be necessary.

Stay off the alcohol, keep a clear head!

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Modern fuel systems are not desgned to withstand stale fuel with ethanol, It only works because they hold small amounts in the system and have effective filters. Look round and see how many injection service centers have sprung up. The manufacturers are happy, if you sell vehicles at cost you make your money on selling parts and ;abour. Manufacturers are doing all they can to make servicing and repairs harder for the small independant garages.They want a monopoly.

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Whilst it's true ethanol did go away, it came back..

Althoughfuel companies may have been forced (really?)to dilute their product with "enviromentaly green" ethanol, the increased visits to the pump to offset the reducedmpg I'm sure doesn't get them sobbing into their gin and tonics. I doubt they're losing money on the deal as they're essentially selling a waste, or cheap/subsidisedproduct for the same price as petrol,they certainly aren't very vocal opponents.

If there are any choices in this, and there generally aren't in this situation, they are these;

1. Ethanol proof your ride. Ethanol is coming/is here, there may be some hiccups/teething troubles which undoubtably will get resolved by speccy boffins in lab coats,as a means of dumping waste ethanol and a "green" driven measure to "save" the planet and make trillions of dollars/quids into the bargain, it's staying.

2. Lobby the gubbermint/fuel companyto put in special petrol pumps in petrol stations for classics and lawnmowers, they would have to have seperate tanks to avoid contamination, they wouldn't need to be very big though, classics account for about 0.02% of fuel use.

3. Sit at home and sulk that the world is unfair and minorities get clobbered and we weren't informed about all this, while your mates go out and practice wheelies in the sunshineon their ethanol proofed 16h's.

You could use an alternative source of fuel, but be aware, avoiding excise tax is a very serious offence... Only if you get caught though!

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No one is making ethanol proof parts for my 85 year old bike. I will not be putting eth in it .If necessary I will strip out the eth and put in whatever it needs to make it work. Or buy Avgas,or race fuel. Its all a big con, bit sad that so many have been taken in by it. Buy a diesel its better for the enviroment, remember that??.

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You're right, it's a con. So are special neon mercurylightbulbs, lithium battery filled green hybrid cars, the list goes on.

It's a shame your 85 year old bike, survived a world war, probably seen all sorts ofadversity will be sidelined by ethanol in petrol. what e proof bits does it need? Fuel injectors not up to it? Oxygen sensor gone all screwy? Wrong grade of plastic fuel tank? Ecu needs a remap perhaps?

Is this really whats going to stop classic enthusiasts? Are we going to adapt, or die off? The governments plan to get all these dodgy deathtraps off the road looks like it may work.

I live in New Zealand and have tolisten to these kiwis banging on abouthow they can fix anything with number 8 wire (they can't). Us poms are better than this, Where's the dunkirke spirit?it's not a huge deal. If Vera Lynn can do it, so can we! She's probably drank loads of ethanol and she's not dead.Everybody "there'll be blue skies over the white cliffs of Dover" etc.

Rule Britannia.

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Quite right Robert and now there is an investigation into ethanol pollution! The establishment will do their best to dumb it down or keep the topic from being debated (January 2006 BBC 28gate) Some folks are doing all they can to expose this ethanol scandal while others are simply collaborators or at best uninformed, possible Green sympathisers. Doing nothing is not an option.

One can imagine that a 961 Norton might still be on SORN at this time of year, Martyn, not a good idea to go for a ride then. Perhaps this means VED for 12 months to help keep the phase separation at bay? I know, another cost to the owner!

You may well know that ethanol is not allowed in aviation for good reason. Esso has said that they have no intention of adding ethanol to their existing E0 outlets. As long as that is the case there is hope for the future when the political fashion changes. It will change, it always does. Diesel good, Diesel bad!

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Nice to see the Web Master not closing down good honest debate.

The VMCC journal has a hub steering 850 Commando on the front page and the new editor is allowing ethanol to be discussed again. There is hope!

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The fact is, despite appearances, the people that govern us aren't stupid, none of this is happening by accident, there is massive money to be made and votes to be had by appearing to do something that will save the planet. In a little while when it's proved that ethanol in fuel is a eviromental and/or economic (for the peasant voter) disaster, they will move to remove it and will be lauded as heroes.

The problem is it's here (there) now. How long will it be until someone sees sense and it's removed again? In the case of diesels it has to be at least 20 years? What are we going to do in the meantime? Sit and wait?

To my mind there is way too much defeatism and gloom andwallowing in self pityin as much as "my bike/lifeis ruined","i'm not going to ride anymore, that'll teach 'em", "my bike is old, it can't be converted".etc.

I don't want to play devils advocate here, i'm as anti establishment as any real motorcyclist. Our time would be wisely spent coming up with ways to continue to enjoy our bikes with the massive convenience of using pump petrol. Carrying enough race gas/de-ethanoled petrolwith you to complete a long trip is going to get pretty tiresome pretty fast. I ran out of petrol the other day, had the wrong petrol tap on, walked to a mates place for a can of petrol... What are people going to do in this situation? push the bike home because unidentified petrol is no good to them?

I don't think doing nothing is a good idea, but if seperation is going to be an issue it'll be an issue for everyone, there are groups with much bigger clout than us, everyday car drivers are going to experience problems, we can jump on their bandwagon and our tiny voice in the dark won't be ignored anymore.

In the meantime, how about a thread for tips and ideas for e proofing our venerable nortons, for people that don't want to spend the weekend wandering around garden centres coz the bike won't go boo hoo, you may as well be dead.

I'll go first; When i was in the uk last my dear old dad had an indian (yank thing) with a float bowl eaten through, possibly by water laden ethanol. Tiny pinholes you couldn't see, porous really. Gave the inside a light sandblast then got some araldite, the good 24hr stuff, not that 5 minute crap. mix it up, paint it on with a paint brush all the way up to the flange. Epoxy resin is ethanol proof, unlike polyester resin. Problem sorted, next problem.

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What to do then.

When you have been out on your bike, turn off the petrol and let the carb run dry before putting it away. Carb is now safe.

If your bike is going to stand for a while (say over winter), the petrol tank should be either full or empty. If full, there will be negligible amounts of water vapour drawn in as the tank breathes due to temperature changes.

Have a garage dehumidifier - see point above.

Don't use cheap petrol.

Keep riding your bike.

The above all work for me.

P.S. How come my cheap and cheerful generator and pressure washer can stand for months and still start and run OK? Is it down to the fact that I add a splash of 2 stroke oil to the petrol?

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Previously Gordon Johnston wrote:

What to do then.

When you have been out on your bike, turn off the petrol and let the carb run dry before putting it away. Carb is now safe.

If your bike is going to stand for a while (say over winter), the petrol tank should be either full or empty. If full, there will be negligible amounts of water vapour drawn in as the tank breathes due to temperature changes.

Have a garage dehumidifier - see point above.

Don't use cheap petrol.

Keep riding your bike.

The above all work for me.

It can't be that simple Gordon, you must have missed a life changing, earth shattering cataclysmic huge problem that will come back and bite you on the arse.

P.S. How come my cheap and cheerful generator and pressure washer can stand for months and still start and run OK? Is it down to the fact that I add a splash of 2 stroke oil to the petrol?

Maybe. Premix oil has an additive to allow the oil to remain in suspension, otherwise it'll settle out. Might that be stopping this seperation problem that appears to be the bain of everyones life from happening? You sir, are a genius.

 


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