When I park a bike at home I always stick a strip of tape over the breather hole on the cap to reduce water vapour entry and the volatile (Not so many now!) elements from vaporising. If I ride off with it attached the motor cuts a few miles later,so I know its working. I think ethanol is only one of many problems with current fuel. I read the HS tome on what is in pump fuel and there are pages of exotic and seriously toxic and carcenogic chemicals in there. With no comeback for the user ,its all approved!! Lead was bad, but now its even worse.

Ask a technical question, and, you will be lucky to get half a dozen replies. Just mention ethanol, and it?s like poking a wasp?s nest!

John, you have already been stung, you just havent noticed yet.

pity they added chemicals to it else you could have fitted an optic measure to one side of the tank. then after a run out stop put the tent up sit back and pour yourself a double ethanol .

Epoxy resin is ethanol proof, unlike polyester resin.

Sorry but I checked with the resin distributors and they no longer recommend any resin to be ethanol proof only more resistant. Yes epoxy resins are more resistant to ethanol than older resins but that just means it lasts longer but will still eventually fail. So any repairs to steel tanks are best done with weld, braze or solder. As a long term solution I am considering zinc plating the inside of a steel tank so the rust never appears from the phase separation.

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

John, you have already been stung, you just havent noticed yet.

Sorry, I have not! My Dominator (only 63 years old) had no modifications to cope with ethanol, or any other additives. Often unridden for several weeks, with whatever fuel is left in the tank, it will then start on the first kick. I recently replaced the fuel tank, but only due to cosmetic damage, the original tank (unsealed) never leaked.

Previously john_holmes wrote:

Epoxy resin is ethanol proof, unlike polyester resin.

Sorry but I checked with the resin distributors and they no longer recommend any resin to be ethanol proof only more resistant. Yes epoxy resins are more resistant to ethanol than older resins but that just means it lasts longer but will still eventually fail. So any repairs to steel tanks are best done with weld, braze or solder. As a long term solution I am considering zinc plating the inside of a steel tank so the rust never appears from the phase separation.

Thanks for that clarification John. Did they give any clue as to the timescale for failure?

Plating the inside of tanks is something i've often considered, copper plating being the easiest, copper sulphate solution sloshed around the inside of the tank would leave a thin deposit of copper, electroplating would leave a thicker deposit. Any thoughts on that?

regards

marty

Previously john_holmes wrote:

Epoxy resin is ethanol proof, unlike polyester resin.

Sorry but I checked with the resin distributors and they no longer recommend any resin to be ethanol proof only more resistant. Yes epoxy resins are more resistant to ethanol than older resins but that just means it lasts longer but will still eventually fail. So any repairs to steel tanks are best done with weld, braze or solder. As a long term solution I am considering zinc plating the inside of a steel tank so the rust never appears from the phase separation.

Thanks for that clarification John. Did they give any clue as to the timescale for failure? There must be something that's ethanol proof otherwise the damn stuff is gonna eat it's way down to New Zealand and we'll be overun with Maoris doing the haka all over the place.

Plating the inside of tanks is something i've often considered, copper plating being the easiest, copper sulphate solution sloshed around the inside of the tank would leave a thin deposit of copper, electroplating would leave a thicker deposit. Any thoughts on that?

regards

marty

We were advised that the acids formed by phase seperation will attack copper, aluminium and brass.I have only seen deep pitting on aluminium, the brass floats seem to hold up well, had a job to find this after my "eth proof " new plastic floats kept jamming and causing fuel to flood all over the floor on both Nortons. Very ecologically sound!!.

Thanks for that clarification John. Did they give any clue as to the timescale for failure? There must be something that's ethanol proof otherwise the damn stuff is gonna eat it's way down to New Zealand and we'll be overun with Maoris doing the haka all over the place.

No they did not give a time, they have in the past offered the original resin that was resold as Petseal and then went that failed on the introduction of ethanol changed to recommending an other resin but have now dropped that recommendation.

https://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co.uk/

is the distributor and this is their outdated FAQ, when asked directly they no longer give any recommendation.

65. Why can't general lay-up resin be used for petrol tanks?

General purpose grades have never been suitable for storage of petrol as they do not have sufficient resistace to oils, diesel , petrol and other similar materials. Before un leaded petrol became the norm you could store it in an iso resin like our Crystic 491PA - this was actually sold by a company called Petseal for sealing rusty motorbike petrol tanks. Un leaded fuel currently used contains methanol which has made it more aggressive towards GRP so we now only recommend highly crosslinked iso resins like our Crystic 199 - this also needs post curing to develope sufficient resistance.

Note that even when they recommended Crystric 199 they only claimed resistance not proof. In the UK this choice of words has implications on product liability, resistance has a get out, proof means proof and no get out.

Zinc is favourite as it is partially self healing and not attacked by ethanol.

Why not just use E0 petrol and wait it out until Green is less fashionable and politicians come to their senses.

Enjoy riding, rather than fitting new parts, draining tanks and painting / electroplating tanks. Reduce the fire hazard into the bargain!

No E0 in Scotland so no choice but to adapt, no F'ing way I am giving in to this, I have a small digger, quad, lawn tractor as well as 6 bikes to sort out.

At least my big tractors are diesel... And it's sunny in the frozen North. Just back from filling the tank with BP Ultimate. Great to be out on a bike.

Thanks Martin,

The people at Hull are pushing hard for E10, maybe the gin will help them meet their own target. Hope they can find a home for all this solvent. (Not in our petrol)

And Anna, what has 1909 and the Ford Model T to do with ethanol today and a Norton 961? Limited availability of E0 is a part of the problem but phase separation is an issue even using ethanol proof materials if the bike is left standing for a period.

I know that the ethanol thread has hijacked the International Event but a very quick check on the internet I found this http://www.ethanil.co.uk

It may be of use to those suffering.

Thanks Martin,

The people at Hull are pushing hard for E10, maybe the gin will help them meet their own target. Hope they can find a home for all this solvent. (Not in our petrol)

And Anna, what has 1909 and the Ford Model T to do with ethanol today and a Norton 961? Limited availability of E0 is a part of the problem but phase separation is an issue even using ethanol proof materials if the bike is left standing for a period.

The ethanil is a dead end, the ethanol is used to boost the octane rating so remove it and you get lower octane petrol that you started with, plus decanting petrol more than necessary is an accident waiting to happen.

Previously john_holmes wrote:

The ethanil is a dead end, the ethanol is used to boost the octane rating so remove it and you get lower octane petrol that you started with, plus decanting petrol more than necessary is an accident waiting to happen.

Not only that, but useless if your planned journey is longer than the range of your tank.

Sorry for my ignorance. What about octane enhancers. Anything done stupidly has its risks. Even riding a motorcycle with a petrol engine sandwiched between your legs.

For those going to the IOM, you cannot carry fuel on the ferry in cans, the bike tank is ok though. Last year I checked and all fuel on the island is eth free , They dont trust it to not damage the storage tanks!!. The lack of eth did cause problems for those who's bikes were tuned to work with eth,carburation all over the place.

Sorry for my ignorance. What about octane enhancers.

And how much do you need to add ? As you have no idea how much you are changing the octane by when removing the Ethanol you have no idea how much octane booster to add.

A good point John, but whose fault is that? When I buy my Esso Synergy Supreme + (97 RON) E0 I pretty much know what I am getting. The problem with adding ethanol is that you start with sub standard petrol. Take Tesco Momentum 99 @ 5% ethanol and 3% methanol. Take those out and I wonder where the base line is?

My understanding also Robert, is that IOM fuel, especially 'Corkhills' the Total station not too far from Governors Bridge is E0.

The International Rally thread has not been hijacked at all. I just wanted riders to be aware that E10 has been mandated in Belgium and left it at that. Richard P, your man on the scene would be best to advise riders visiting as he has done. I just don't want to hear about damaged and broken down Norton's and their riders safety compromised. Got a problem with that?

In response to the last two entries which seem to refer to my post, I can only refer to the FAQ of the ethanol site. I have reproduced this below. I thought I was trying to be helpful.

And as there were two posts dealing with the same thing it would seem best to keep it to one posting where ALL the information could be had. Duplicating the information on two threads will only end up with information being missed.

Ending a post with the words "got a problem with that?" Not really that helpful. In fact if you spoke to most people in a pub on a Saturday night and ended your comments to them with that phrase, I think you would find out soon enough that someone did indeed have a problem. Please note though not me, I abhor violence and I am not suggesting that anyone should promote violence. Sometimes things written by one person can be read differently by another.

Please enjoy the trip to Belgium.

FAQ

Frequently Asked Questions

Here youâll find answers to some commonly asked questions about Ethanil. If you have a question that isnât listed, please getin touch and weâll continue to evolve the list.

Q. Will removing the ethanol from petrol effect the octane rating?

A. Yes, removing ethanol from petrol will reduce the octane rating by approximately 1 number per 2% of ethanol content removed.

One solution to this, is touse a higher octane fuel (ie 99 RON) for the Ethanil process. Alternatively and particularly in applications with a high compression ratio where octane is critical (e.g. motorbikes, racing cars), we suggest boosting the octane with an additive treatment.

Q. Which additive should I use to boost the octane rating of petrol?

A. There are various additives available with different advantages, including:

Castrol Valvemaster Plus Lead replacement additive for valve seat protectionwith an additional octane boost. Increases octane by two numbers,i.e. 95 will increase to 97 RON, 97 will increase to 99 RON. The valve seat protection is adequate for normal driving but not racing nor arduous use.

Dosage: 1 x 250ml bottle treats 250 litre / 100ml : 100 litre

Millers CVL Octane booster, valve seat lubricant and combustion enhancer. Increases octane by up to 3 octane numbers and intended for classic vehicles.

Dosage 1 x 250ml bottle treats 20 litres / 100ml: 8 litres

Millers CVL Turbo Octane booster, valve seat lubricant and combustion enhancer. Increasesoctane levels by up to 4 octane numbers. Intended for modern vehicles and motorsport applications.

Dosage: 1 x 500ml bottle treats 20 litres / 100ml : 4 litres

Thanks for the info Graham, but where did the notion of violence come from? This is not the site for that kind of activity. You must have made that up? I would always be careful what I say to people under the influence of alcohol / ethanol!

There would be none of this debate and disagreement if only our choices were not taken away.

From what I can gather, it's the methanol which destroys GRP fuel tanks and tank sealants rather than the ethanol. Is it fair to assume that the Cleveland Discol of old did not contain methanol? If that were the case, it would explain why few if any problems were reported with it and why we are suffering now.

So you can't separate out the alcohol off and drink it after all. No silver lining - or tank lining for that matter.

Hi Gordon, so far I have only seen Methanol (The stuff Speedway bikes run on) in a Tesco Momentum 99 data sheet. I guess with a 5% max on ethanol (At the moment) they had to use the methanol to get up to 99 RON. My money is on the ethanol but remember, back in the Discol days it was a one brand product so chances are it was not the only fuel in the tank back then, in the days of choice!

Discol was NOT the only fuel, using alcohol as an octane booster, back in the fifties. Back then, no distinction was made between methanol and ethanol (except that methanol would blind you, and ethanol might not!).

Previously Neil Wyatt wrote:

Thanks for the info Graham, but where did the notion of violence come from? This is not the site for that kind of activity. You must have made that up? I would always be careful what I say to people under the influence of alcohol / ethanol!

There would be none of this debate and disagreement if only our choices were not taken away.

I don't think Graham is suggesting violence, only an idiot would think that. Heis merely suggesting, and most virile young men such as ourselves would agree, is that ending any sentence/discussion/debate with, "got a problem with that?" is likely to lead to fisticuffs in a pubcarpark.

The fact that it's written on a internet forum doesn't make it any less infamatory and trying to validate it by suggesting the aggrieved may actually have a problem with your statement that you are only interested in the wellbeing of your fellow nortoners and their safety(?) and that the aggrieved, bydefault,couldn't care less, is even more insulting.

Backpeddling and suggesting the aggrieved made it up and this isn't the place for such activity are the actions of a coward. Blaming youroutbursts on your choices being taken away are the actions of a whiner.

well, since this is all going pear shaped i am going to do some gardening today in my new open toe Wellingtons .

cheer up everyone

Dear oh dear, calm down gents. Martyn, such comments have no place on here, and can only aggravate a silly situation caused by an ill thought out comment, and a slightly over sensitive reaction. Smile and shake hands, for goodness sake. Life is too short....

Ian

Well said, Ian.

I draw the line at personal insults. I said nothing to warrant that kind of response, even less so from a third party. As for me being a coward; I have served in the military on active service but you wouldn't know that, Mr Watson!

Now let's get back on topic and end this nonsense.