Buyer Beware?

On my first Norton 961 I was lucky to reach 140 miles before it ran out of fuel. Generally the low fuel warning light came on just before this happened. About 5 miles of extra motoring was possible if I went very slow. This light was a really useless extra, especially when travelling along a motorway or Dartmoor, as I found out the hard way. The tank has such a strange internal shape that it is next to impossible to judge if there is any fuel left inside once when below half full. Despite it good looks, the tank only takes about 12 Litre of usable Fuel which does not help on long journeys. On my 961 the engine started to run a bit rough when the fuel was low in the tank. I guess this was due to the pump sucking in some air. When the air filter got clogged with oil, the consumption dropped to 40mpg or below.

My first 961 arrived with just a tiny sticker and the Rider's Handbook giving advice for running-in the motor. Both basically said, take it easy for the first few hundreds of miles. My second 961 had a slightly sticker which demanded careful limits to revs and speed for the first 1000 miles. This strikes me as archaic. My Honda 750 twin asked that I avoid full throttle starts or rapid acceleration and ride conservatively for the first 300 miles. None of the snails pace riding for a 1000 miles demanded by the latest Nortons.

In the two years I owned and rode both of my two 961s. I only met one person who had bought a new Norton and not had to return it to the factory or agent for repairs or adjustments in the 6 months. You would have thought after 8 years of production that all the new bike issues would have been sorted.

I trust you cancelled your RAC membership and claimed compensation! As for the norton it will be interesting to find out what the problem was and how well they treat you/sort it, did they get back to you, what is the latest?

I wouldnât rely on emails for a quick reply (unless they promise one?) as senders we expect an immediate reply to emails but this is often unrealistic, as a receiver when your inbox is full of junk and marketing thatâs not always going to happen. I worked for the Gov and their targets for replying to emails are the same as letters 15 working days, if you think about it why should an email get quicker treatment than a letter that has been posted?

My preference is to always phone when I have a problem with something, apart from anything else you can build a rapport with who ever you are dealing with.

Just my twopenneth worth! .... I hope you get it sorted the bikes look great.

Previously john_o'hara wrote:

Previously Dan Field wrote:

I trust you cancelled your RAC membership and claimed compensation! As for the norton it will be interesting to find out what the problem was and how well they treat you/sort it, did they get back to you, what is the latest?

I called Norton on Monday 9th - they would sort collection etc. I then asked if they would buy it back as I had lost confidence in it. They made reassuring promises, it will be something simple etc, once run in it will be fine..... The warranty manager called and said they would collect the bike and return it AS A COURTESY and once back at Donnington they would find the problem and let me know. Many promises of keeping me updated.

The bike was collected at 2:00 p.m. on Wednesday, after an indication it would be collected at 10:00 - "no mate, I did not leave Donnington till gone 10"

The driver was asked to give a receipt for collection - "we don't do that!"

No communication from Norton so I emailed on Friday to ask if they had received the bike - still waiting for a reply.

Considering this Particular brand is dependent on reputation, their customer service is shockingly bad.

Spoke to trading standards and I can reject the bike within 30 days of the sale date - sneakily Norton put the sale date at 22nd June - when I collected the extras so I have just over 10 days left despite not collecting it till 6th July.

RAC -offer of £30 and yes cancelled and waiting for refund but had to threaten legal action to get this.

Disappointing say the least, shouldnât happen,embarrassing etc when yer mates ask yer how yer new bike is ,but John remember why u got it in the first place & desire u had ,961 owners it has been said are a forgiving bunch, with marriage guidance advice they say if u can forgive the move on & forward in ur relationship.

It will surely be something very simple , running in can be a pain, but worth the wait, Iâve done long days riding the bike, & itâs been great, 15,000 Miles in just over 2 years, Dan is right about emails ,we tend to think about emails the same as texting ,so just deal with it on the blower ,sure it will be sorted within a few days

I think John will have to exercise his right to reject a.s.a.p., as it seems clear that once that deadline passes he is at Norton's mercy, which from the account he gives is likely to be extremely strained.

Also, I think he should calculate losses incurred and send Norton a "letter before claim" asking for payment (see https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/letter/letter-before-small-claims-court-claim).

The latter is why he needs a clear e-mail trail.

On a different note, 1000 miles of running in doesn't seem unreasonable for what is after all an air-cooled engine. On the other hand, it's worrying that the factory can't prescribe a more detailed programme for gradually increasing the load during this period.

Previously Julian Wells wrote:

I think John will have to exercise his right to reject a.s.a.p., as it seems clear that once that deadline passes he is at Norton's mercy, which from the account he gives is likely to be extremely strained.

Also, I think he should calculate losses incurred and send Norton a "letter before claim" asking for payment (see https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/letter/letter-before-small-claims-court-claim).

The latter is why he needs a clear e-mail trail.

Good advice. The level of service received so far is simply not acceptable.

Patrick.

It might be useful to add that since John paid for the machine but has had essentially no service from it he has effectively lent Norton the price of the bike interest-free.

The courts allow 8% p.a. interest and any claim should include this (https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/work-out-interest).

Previously Julian Wells wrote:

I think John will have to exercise his right to reject a.s.a.p., as it seems clear that once that deadline passes he is at Norton's mercy, which from the account he gives is likely to be extremely strained.

Also, I think he should calculate losses incurred and send Norton a "letter before claim" asking for payment (see https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/letter/letter-before-small-claims-court-claim).

The latter is why he needs a clear e-mail trail.

Julian........there is a sticker on the fuel tank and a mention (if you can find it) in the Riders Handbook on running in procedures. In this age of modern materials and machining techniques a 1000 miles of slow speed running-in is absurd. On Jap air-cooled engines it is far less.

With regard to the legal side..........the rights of an individual now come under the

Consumer Rights Act September 2015.

There is a specific section for motor vehicles which actually gives the consumer less comeback with regard to faulty goods than when purchasing a washing machine. There are two deadlines. The first covers the first 30 days of ownership from new and the second 6 months following the purchase. After 6 months the chance of a full refund are slim. As follows are the bones of the regs.....

If it can be shown that the goods were faulty from date of sale then the consumer has a right to reject the goods and demand a full refund.

This also applies if repairs are made to the goods that either take an unreasonable amount of time or fail to be effective.

All products (including motor vehicles) must be of âsatisfactory qualityâ, fit for purpose and âas describedâ.

If they pay up promptly, well and good. But if there's any delay or quibbling then a "letter before claim" with a demand for interest â?

Previously john_o'hara wrote:

Thank you to all for the advice, as I have not heard from Norton by 3:30 on Monday 16th July, I wrote to formally reject the bike and request a refund using the Consumer Rights Act 2015. I wait to see what the response is.

The shame is, had Norton kept me updated accurately as to the stage of build and also updated me as to the issue with the bike cutting out, and its resolution, I would have been more inclined to be flexible.

John

hello well the other option in retro motorcycles is the very nice reliable Honda CB1100Ex with every thing you need ,start it and just ride ,yours Anna J

Previously Julian Wells wrote:

If they pay up promptly, well and good. But if there's any delay or quibbling then a "letter before claim" with a demand for interest â?

Previously john_o'hara wrote:

Thank you to all for the advice, as I have not heard from Norton by 3:30 on Monday 16th July, I wrote to formally reject the bike and request a refund using the Consumer Rights Act 2015. I wait to see what the response is.

The shame is, had Norton kept me updated accurately as to the stage of build and also updated me as to the issue with the bike cutting out, and its resolution, I would have been more inclined to be flexible.

John

I think you shouldare aware that these bikes are produced by a small firm that needs your support and once they are fixed they are really good. Going public like you have is never a good idea it smacks of someone who hadreally not considered what he was doingand you should be more private with your actions.

Previously dave_sheppard wrote

I think you shouldare aware that these bikes are produced by a small firm that needs your support and once they are fixed they are really good. Going public like you have is never a good idea it smacks of someone who hadreally not considered what he was doingand you should be more private with your actions.

I think I speak for for most , if not all of us , in saying no one wants to see the new Norton venture fail - small firm or large . I may have to disagree with your statement " Going public is never a good idea " . ( emphasis on the "never" part) If Mr O'Hara's narrative is accurate ( I don't know him but I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt) it would seem that he only "went public " after giving them ( Norton - the seller) much latitude. It seems to me that " going public " may be a good idea indeed as it serves to prepare future buyers for what they might realistically expect in terms of delivery time, reliability, customer service etc. The fact that the retrieval service would not give a receipt for Mr O'Hara's considerable investment is inexcusable and if indeed this is Nortons policy the buying public should certainly be made aware of it - if this was merely an employee or contractor's policy then Norton needs to know about it.

I think we would all be naive if we expect a small new start firm to perform and produce a product such as the long established makers do . This is a niche product and your point about them needing support is well taken . Keep in mind that each of us have differing levels of expectations,patience, flexibility, and last but not least - deep enough pockets to weather the gestation period of companies such as the new Norton firm. The truth serves all - maker AND consumer - and if Norton's future potential clients have an accurate idea of everything involved I believe both parties will be better served and therefore happier- this is supposed to be fun , right ?

For what it may be worth I would love to have one in my stable even after reading this - perhaps one day I will .

Cheers - Richard

Previously dave_sheppard wrote:

"I think you shouldare aware that these bikes are produced by a small firm that needs your support and once they are fixed they are really good. Going public like you have is never a good idea it smacks of someone who hadreally not considered what he was doingand you should be more private with your actions."

This is totally irrelevant. The customer has a right to expect a product which is of acceptable quality on delivery and to receive back -up service from the manufacturer in the event of 'unexpected' problems. In John's case he has received neither of these and is only asking for suitable redress.

I do hope that Norton will do the honourable thing and offer him suitable compensation for his troubles. That would at least show an attempt at good customer relations.

Patrick

That's all very well, but they have ideas beyond their station, or at least beyond their ability to deliver.

If they can't provide appropriate customer support for the 961 Commando (appropriate to being a small manufacturer of a niche product) they should not be attempting to develop a V4 to compete in the TT, nor the new 650.

Previously dave_sheppard wrote:

I think you shouldare aware that these bikes are produced by a small firm that needs your support and once they are fixed they are really good. Going public like you have is never a good idea it smacks of someone who hadreally not considered what he was doingand you should be more private with your actions.

https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3796/DIBOBo.png

Humans 0 . . . Robots 1 Hand made, yes, Human error , quite possible , both in manufacture and communication. Sometimes a little patience and understanding can go a long way , no doubt helped by a legal kick up the arse. I just think no one at Norton like talking to outsiders even when they have spent over £15,000 on one of their bikes.

Up here in the North we call a spade a spade, at Donnington some one isn't quite sure what the connection is.

John - I am very glad to hear it ! I hope you will update this thread from time to time to inform us on the reliability side and performance as well . Once sorted I'm certain you will never exceed any speed limits

( wink - wink ) so let us know how it does up till that number !

Enjoy and and ride safely- I'm now envious ! Richard

Hello John how about an update on your 961, have you managed to get some miles on the speedo with all this great weather we are having?.

Good to hear that, I had mine de-catted at the first service and it made a world of difference to running and starting. As for the side stand this has been a problem from the first one coming off the production line and would be soooo easy to fix with another 40mm added to the length, just goes to show that the buyers really aren't listened to after the thing has left the factory...big shame for the after - service dept. I stuck a piece of 6 or 8mm copper pipe over the end of mine extending the length so it was so easy to get your toe on it at a standstill, painted it black and added a small rubber bung on the end for appearances, makes the world of difference and something Norton could have done from the start (not the copper pipe of course)..cost 50p.

I still have certain running issues with mine but have come to love the bones of it none the less and just look upon it as a bit of a 'quirky' beautiful slightly flawed piece of machinery that I will never regret buying, even if it still ticks over like a ditch pump sometimes.

John.....Peter - The attached photo shows the simple mod I made to extend my sidestand. Basically it is just a length of reinforced rubber tubing added to the end to lengthen it by 50mm. I found that when wearing riding boots, trying to operate this item in the dark or in a hurry was a non-event. The design of the 961 stand is poor. The one on the old Commando is much better as it can be deployed while still sitting on the bike.

Previously philip_hannam wrote:

John.....Peter - The attached photo shows the simple mod I made to extend my sidestand. Basically it is just a length of reinforced rubber tubing added to the end to lengthen it by 50mm. I found that when wearing riding boots, trying to operate this item in the dark or in a hurry was a non-event. The design of the 961 stand is poor. The one on the old Commando is much better as it can be deployed while still sitting on the bike.

This was my solution to a very SIMPLE problem.https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5324/aOLiKj.jpg

Previously peter_banks wrote:

Good to hear that, I had mine de-catted at the first service and it made a world of difference to running and starting. As for the side stand this has been a problem from the first one coming off the production line and would be soooo easy to fix with another 40mm added to the length, just goes to show that the buyers really aren't listened to after the thing has left the factory...big shame for the after - service dept. I stuck a piece of 6 or 8mm copper pipe over the end of mine extending the length so it was so easy to get your toe on it at a standstill, painted it black and added a small rubber bung on the end for appearances, makes the world of difference and something Norton could have done from the start (not the copper pipe of course)..cost 50p.

I still have certain running issues with mine but have come to love the bones of it none the less and just look upon it as a bit of a 'quirky' beautiful slightly flawed piece of machinery that I will never regret buying, even if it still ticks over like a ditch pump sometimes.

Take a look at the Access Norton site, specifically the 'Lamda' thread....makes interesting reading....

Interesting reading! I have had my 961 from new for just under a year with the usual problems. Mine have mainly been associated with the sensors. Lamdas and mapping sensors. These basically need to be replaced with Yamaha items for them to run properly. Like everyone else, I changed to decat and straight thru pipes which make it sound like a Norton should although the silencers failed with loose internal baffles. Teasdale Motorcycles have been very good at diagnosing the faults, sending replacement parts or picking up the bike and repairing it. Nice folk.

One thing they havnt managed to fix however is a persistent oil leak from behind the starter motor. Has anyone else had this? They fitted a breather to the oil filler cap to start with but that didnt sort it.

I spoke to Rob @ Norton who said that he has not come across this problem before and offered to send me the workshop manual and some replacement gaskets. Nothing yet....

Basically the bike is a delight to look at and ride but it is not reliable so I shall use my old Commando or even my 1948 Model 18 for longer runs. Its the old parable of the hare and tortoise!

Do you get a patch of oil like this Nigel???