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So exactly how screwed am I?

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Apologies for the clickbait title. I've been working on an early 650ss engine with a 99 barrel and have had a few false dawns. I've been working on carbs, clutch, oil lines and rotor/stator up to now.

I went to start her for the first time recently and noticed a very rough kickstart action and when I did get a spark a horrendous back fire. I went to check the valves and they they weren't opening or closing properly. Off with her head! 

In a previous post Phillip Hannam and others pointed out that 650ss pushrods were too small for the 99 barrel. So it has proved. See photo 1 below. Aluminium swarf everywhere on the pushrods and cups.

So obviously a set of appropriate pushrods will be needed but can I use the earlier springs and slim pushrods? I've already gone to a single carb so this won't be a rocket any time soon so will this be ok? 

Ive included some photos of the head and the valves. Are the valve stems serviceable or are new ones needed?

Also photos of the pistons at tdc. The barrel is in great condition and I don't think the engine has ever run since this work was done which isn't surprising considering the pushrods to be honest. The gasket was copper outer with a hard inner material which seems strange. What is the best replacement? Any and all advice, comments or observations received with thanks. I don't have the funds to buy a new 650 barrel as yet but this might be an option one day. I will stick and adapt what I have for now. Thanks  

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The fact that the damage is so close to the end of the rod suggests the ball on the rocker was not sitting in the cup at the top of the rod.  So the rod came up alongside the rocker, and damaged its side. If the problem is the big diameter push rods, there will be scars on the side of one or more.  Did it hit the side of the tunnel, and that pushed it sideways? You won't be the first person to re-use the gasket! The engine is pretty robust.  I suspect the alloy pushrod are the weakest link and won't have done serious damage, but you'll need to inspect it I had an escaped pushrod many years ago.  Nothing else was damaged. Valve stems look perfectly normal.  They all look like that after a while. Also - my alloy pushrods are barrel shaped with tapered ends to fit the end caps.  Yours appear to be parallel.  Hopefully an expert will explain why.  But they aren't as fat as some rods.
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The gasket is the best type to use although there are pattern ones about that are not as good . The fatter pushrods were introduced to cope with the stronger valve springs needed for the uprated SS cam form. With fatter rods came openned out tunnels in the 650 barrels .. I would probably use a die grinder to relieve the tunnels where they rub the rods. If you use 99 rods and dont use high revs  and retain old used  (tired ?) springs they may work. Check the valve length above the collets ,one looks longer in the photo .could be a rogue one from a later engine.Check rod length too.perhaps you have some 88 ones . Pistons are higher than std compression ,may need a little less advance on ignition 
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The fat pushrods are hollow tubes with tapered ends.  The waist size is 3/8".  Yours don't appear to be as big as that.  So most likely the top escaped when you tightened the head.
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I think I may have mentioned that I've inherited the bike and I'm finding out the hard way about the previous owner and his mechanical aptitude.

As I explore the head I seem to have the wrong type of rocker shafts as well as no heat insulating washers. Is this a major issue?

I've ordered some new pushrods, softer springs and some mushroom style tappet adjusters to see what I can do to sort this bit of the bike out.  

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You may think you have the wrong spindles ,but they may have been installed  to match a change in the oil pump drive , you need to do some reading on 6 start gears (pump)  and why they are retro  fitted to earlier engines ,and the problems they can cause.  Or not ,if you are lucky !.
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Oh yes. Also, having been told I would need a rocker spindle extractor I found the spindles came out with a single tap with a slide hammer. Not one gave any resistance.  I am assuming that I will need new spindles? Everyone else seems to have to fight them out. Either that or the head is fritzed as well? Ho Hum. 

 

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Thanks. New spindles fitted and three of the four appear much tighter and much less likely to spin.  I've researched the RGM locator kit and may order a set for the loosest spindle. Head is now back on and valve clearance done. 

The oil pump is a three start version but all the seals need replacing and there was no gasket between the pump and the case. The gears seem to be working well so once the new seals are here we should be good to go. 

Onwards!

 

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I'm confused (just for a change).  What's all this about spindles?  I've never felt the urge to remove mine.  Unless you did it instead of removing the head...?
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Well I had to remove the spindles to repair two of the tappet followers which were badly marked. Once the spindles were out I replaced the thackeray washers and thrust washer. I needed a shim on the r/h exhaust rocker but otherwise all good. This is a recommissioning process which is uncovering issues. If I started a new thread each time you would all be heartily sick of me before long. 

Edited to add that the damaged pushrods had deeply scored the ball ends of the tappets so needed replacement so it's all linked to my original post I guess! 

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Ok. So the head has been sorted and all four valves open. The valves and springs are the shorter 650ss versions but seem fine. Push rods now engage and are correct for the 88/99 barrel I.e it won't take to fatter barrel shaped 650 versions. The valve timing is set as per the various manuals. Carb has been serviced and rebuilt - using a single monobloc 376 and a single manifold as a starting point. Air is being pulled into the carb on the induction strokes. Oil pump is in excellent condition and is returning oil to the tank and head. Timing chains are correctly spaced and run smoothly. The engine turns smooth and free on the crank and there is no interference at the rotor/stator.  I have healthy sparks on both spark plugs, correct gaps and Pazon ignition is set to 32 btdc. All good you might think.

But. It's still an absolute brute to kick over. Now I'm not exactly svelte and I'm having to give it my everything to get it to turn over. It can pretty much hold me standing on it. So difficult is the action that apart from a couple of backfires it's not fired up at all. It just doesn't feel right, especially as I can turn it on the crank without much effort. The kickstart also doesn't feel like it's engaged for all of the downward stroke and on occasions makes a knocking noise. 

Current feverish fault finding thought processes go as follows...

  1.  Help!
  2. Gearbox is somehow preventing a smooth and effective kickstart. I hate gearboxes. Hope it's not the gearbox…
  3. Are the valves actually working in sequence? Is there a set order? How do I check?
  4. Did the previous bodger fit the b****y camshaft backwards? Is this even possible?
  5. Other unpublishable swearing and muttering.....
  6. It's the gearbox isn't it. 

So - any bright ideas before I rip it all back to component parts?  Thanks in advance Edited to add that there is approximately 1/8 in free play on the kickstarter spline. Didn't seem significant before but maybe an issue?

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Take out the plugs and kick it it over, this will remove compression from the equation. If it then kicks over smoothly and easily, it's the compression that's making it difficult.  If it's still difficult with the plugs out, then you have a different issue, i.e. kickstart, gearbox or primary drive and this will be a process of elimination. If everything has been newly built, then it could just be collective stiffness of all the components and this should ease once the bike has been running for a while.  You could also try retarding the ignition a few degrees to get it going until you can do a proper set up on the road.
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Bob's suggestion must be a good starting point.  If (as you say) you can "turn it on the crank without much effort", it doesn't sound as if the motor is too stiff. So you might have to get into the gearbox and see if some bushes are too tight.  You can get at most of it without removing it from the frame.  The only awkward part is indexing the gear change.  Does it spin easily when you pull in the clutch and kick it over?  It's not complicated like a car box with synchromesh clutches etc. I don't see any way to put the cam in wrong, provided the manufacturer's timing marks are all correct.  Intermediate ones can be invisible and need spots of white paint to be seen.  There's also a hard steel washer behind the half time pinion.  That van easily be missed, or even slip out of place if its spindle is loose (which can happen).  If it has slipped down behind the gear, I don't know but it might jam something. Do both timing chains have enough slack all the way round?  Sprockets can be eccentric and give tight spots as they turn.  Same with primary chain which must be adjusted as per book to make sure gearbox isn't pulled back to give a bar tight chain. We're probably repeating ideas as you go round in circles.  But you must be close now!
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As we dont know the history of this bike its difficult to know where to start. I would be suspicious of every thing , was the bottom end rebuilt ? is the crank free to turn? big ends swapped round ,No ring clearance ? . is it fully out of gear ?.Find out its history from the previous owner. when was it last running ,whats been done since.
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Ring gaps sounds possible.  Although it begs the question: if it is too tight even when cold, how did he fit the pistons in the first place?  Even so, with all the other issues, it might be wise to check piston sizes and ring gaps.
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... as others have indicated, if the engine can be turned easily via the crank that the problem must lie elsewhere and most likely in the gearbox as any primary / clutch issue would be evident when turning via the crank - assuming these were in place. Also assuming the plugs were in when this was tried.
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Thanks gents. It's a cliche but without help and support from this forum I might just have given up!

 Everything points to the gearbox as being the issue as the engine turns over nicely (plugs in) when not trying to kick it over. I am suspicious of everything as I uncover bodge after bodge but this has to be the last remaining hurdle.

Now awaiting parts from Andover (lock ring removal tool)  so I can have a better look at the kickstart pawls and associated bushes. The gearbox itself moves nicely through the gears up and down the box so hopefully I won't need to remove the innards. 

I shall keep you updated   Cheers

 

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Hi Kit, just a thought,  but if we knew your approximate location, there could be one of us call by and give you some fresh eyes on your problems? Obviously,  don't post your address here though. Regards,  George 
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I’m in the TVP area just north of Slough. Fingers  crossed!!
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Okidoki I've removed the kickstart mechanism and inner gearbox cover to look at the kickstart in more details. The layshaft 1st gear looks fine and the kickstart pawl like wise. 

What does feel wrong is the bush for the kickstart in the inner cover. The kickstart shaft is grinding on the inner cover and the bush seems to be below the rim of the housing. See pictures attached. I would be grateful for thoughts, observations and clues as to what to do next!

Cheers

Edited to say I think it's the wrong bush!   

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The kick-start bushes are steel.  So steel bearing on steel shaft.  They need to be strong to carry the load, but they don't support a fast rotating shaft.  So they aren't a problem unless they are under size (which doesn't seem likely) Is there any end float on the kick-start when it's all bolted up?  There ought to be some. Does the kick-start fit loose in the cover, without jamming?  One tab is the stopper for the pawl, and the other runs in a slot...is it bent or damaged?

There was about 1/8 inch float in the k/s shaft which is probably too much. A new bush (04.0473) is on its way which should remove this. Off the bike the k/s fits ok in the cover and engages nicely with the layshaft 1st gear. 
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So it's not the kickstart that's making it difficult to kick over, that's one potential issue eliminated.
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Is the primary chain too tight?  You say the engine turns freely on the crank.  So does the gearbox operate freely if you remove the primary chain?  Has someone over packed it with shims to remove end float inside the box?  Are selector forks bent?  Are the bearings in the back of the shell in good condition? Haynes has detailed advice:  
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Here are some images of the selector forks. Too much or still serviceable? They seem ok in the quadrant and in their respective gears but it does stand out when stripped down..... Edited to say the forks seem to be good fit on the gears and on the plate as well. Unless anyone can tell me different they are staring for now! 

Primary chain is not too tight in fact might be a tad loose. There are no shims in the gearbox. Selector forks are worn but not bent (see photos) and bearings do seem to be fine. I'm waiting for a new bearing for the inner cover and a new bush for the kickstart before I can check the box as per the Haynes instructions 
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Hi Kit,

If you haven't seen it already, you might find it worthwhile looking at the Hemmings gearbox DVD (available through NOC shop) and also have a look at the Old Britts Commando notes here

www.nwno.org/resources/OldBrittsWebsite/ob_tech.html

(Dommi 'box is esentially the same as a Commando). I found their notes on setting the indexing spring invaluable on my 650.

Keep at it, they are enjoyable riders bikes once you get them set up properly.

Regards,

George

NB: I was warned off the Haynes manuals years ago by various club 'sages' as they reported many errors. Before you torque things up to the suggested torque values I suggest you ask on the forum for any corrections.

 

 


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