Ethanol - raise an e-petition?

With you 100% on this Robert. The first thing concerned riders need to do is to write to their MP's if they have not done so already, from where they will receive a pre written statement with regard to the Governments 'Renewable Fuel for Transport Obligation.'

Given the high cost of renewables and the current abundance of oil and falling prices, adding Ethanol makes no sense. However, the issue is one of choice. Now that the Murco refinery has closed, we only have BP Ultimate outside of the South West that is E0. How long for?

This nonsense will continue until Ed Miliband's 2008 Climate Change Act has been rescinded. The British Standard for E0Unleaded petrol is BS 70/70. Why have we got to be taken for suckers and generally not know what we are buying?

I address this issue with updates on the front page of my NE Section VMCC site. The FBHVCcan't take the criticismI gave when they proposed making E5 their legacy fuel, some legacy. It was E 5 that caused all the damage and they can't bring themselves to support E0. They would rather we buy anti Ethanol products emblazoned with their logo to reduce the effects of a solvent we never asked for in the first place. It was imposed upon us by stealth! Don't forget that.

Thank the Lord for BP Ultimate. Happy Christmas.

Robert. I would certainly support this.

Neil, is it definite that Murco superunleaded now contains ethanol? I have just been to Sussex for a couple of days, and on the journey home to Cornwall today, picked up a few gallons of the stuff in the New Forest, assured as I was by the petrol station manager that it does not contain ethanol! His information may be out of date of course, but he said he found out because so many people have come in and asked him about it.

I could test it by it's paint-stripping abilities, I suppose....

Previously ian_cordes wrote:

Robert. I would certainly support this.

Neil, is it definite that Murco superunleaded now contains ethanol? I have just been to Sussex for a couple of days, and on the journey home to Cornwall today, picked up a few gallons of the stuff in the New Forest, assured as I was by the petrol station manager that it does not contain ethanol! His information may be out of date of course, but he said he found out because so many people have come in and asked him about it.

I could test it by it's paint-stripping abilities, I suppose....

What about raising an e petition. I believe if this is can be done on the Governments own website; when 100 000 signatures have been collected it MUST be debated in Parliament.

I do not know if one has been started - I will have a look later.

The thing about all these so called "green schemes" is that they are nothing but a con .Their benefits are non existant in the main and are funded by the tax payer without any chance of them withdrawing. Every body pays a surcharge on their electricity bills ( I think it is about 12% now) to pay for wind turbines and solar panels.I will stop here before I develop this into a rant. Did you know wind turbines can cause cancer.

The ethanol in our fuel not only damages our vehicles but is one of the causes of the great increase in the price of cereals. The Americans have gone over to growing corn for car fuel thus raising the price of food crops.

Happy Christmas, Mick

Ian, you will soon find out if your fuel really does contain Ethanol, like you say, paint stripping qualities. Then there is the other stuff such as hoses and carb bits melting plus engine running hotter. It is possible that there was a massive stock of E0 from the Murco refinery before it closed down. As you know, this stuff isn't going to go off in a hurry like E 5. I'd keep an eye on the Murco situation though. Otherwise BP Ultimate while out of the SW.

Yes Mick, Ethanol and bio diesel are a con and only there to help HM government meet their renewable targets. Not to make your Norton bits become more sustainable. There are several US States that have banned Ethanol, mostly from the North East. As you rightly said, it has shoved the price of food up while the US especially is awash with oil and gas.I gave a lecture on this Green nonsense last February, some didn't like it but every word was true and no made up Hockey sticks!

I'll be filling up the car with BP Ultimate next Saturday as all the road ready bikes are full plus my permitted 2 plastic gallon containers. Whatever happens, at least next Spring is taken care of.

Don't let em grind you down and give as good as you can take.

Happy Christmas and Good E0 riding in 2015...

Ethanol is here to stay, learn to live with it. I haven't noticed any parts of my Norton rotting away in the fuel system and they are all easily replaceable anyway. My concern is the state of the roads and the amount of salt the councils put down in winter. Humbug

David, if you want to use petrol with added Ethanol, you have the choice. (Most pumps) My ex VMCC Section President used to say 'my bikes alright.' and then when he came back from holiday last August he checked his bike and found the tank liner a mess and rubber fuel hose perished. He thought, wrongly, that the Miller's anti Ethanol agent @ about nine quid a bottle was the cure, it just delayed the problem.

I suppose we could just put up the white flag and let our politicians do what they want without question and being held to account. Some things are however worth fighting for and Ethanol is only here to stay until Ed Miliband's2008 Climate change Act is rescinded. With no statistically significant global warming since 1997, that day getting closer.

I'm pleased your bike is OK but spare a thought for the Norton's that have been victims to this evil solvent. I believe our Norton's are worth campaigning for. You may disagree?

I am fortunate in theat my local petrol station is BP with its Ultimate petrol. BP seem to meet their ethanol quota by loading other fuels - diesel etc with the stuff. Curiously, investigating my Christmas central heating failure, I discovered that the stainless braided fuel pipe had developed pinhole leaks - just the same thing as happened to my LandRover on ordinary pertol. Further investigation revealed 30 litres of water in the oil tank - a hint that even central heating oil is now getting hygroscopic ethanol added? Anyway, looking forward to adding my name to the epetition.

As we are now affiliated to MAG - it's perhaps worth checking on the details of their campaign - which also has some useful facts about the planned introduction of E10 fuels?

http://www.mag-uk.org/en/campaignsdetail/a7099

Previously david_evans wrote:

Ethanol is here to stay, learn to live with it. I haven't noticed any parts of my Norton rotting away in the fuel system and they are all easily replaceable anyway. My concern is the state of the roads and the amount of salt the councils put down in winter. Humbug

I am glad that you are alright, Jack; sorry; David. With one bike, one carb; maybe two; a solid, unlined steel tank, yes, you may be alright. Consider those who have several bikes. This bike collecting is a disease, as we know, which afflicts many of us. Multiply costs by the number of fuel systems, add in those old tanks which have been lined in good faith and at fair cost, but lined with dubious potions. Then factor in those which have fibreglass tanks, as my Commando Proddie Racer does; original fitment, don't forget. To deal with that lot to make them ethanol proof just from a corrosion/erosion/rotting point of view, will cost well into 4 figures. That still leaves us with crap fuel which doesn't last, suffers from phase separation etc etc. Why the hell should we put up with this, for no good reason?

Never mind humbug; Merry Christmas!

Very well said, Ian and Robert. No, we shouldn't have to put up with it just so our 'Greenest government ever' can try to meet their renewable targets! All in it together!!!

Gordon, you may be onto something here with bio cr*p in heating oil? For a start, you should be getting a rebate as Ethanol gives you less bang for your buck as they say! Need to find out more about this, how desperate are they for these targets?

Meanwhile the FBHVC are supporting E5 as their reserve legacy fuel for when E10 comes in and the editor of the VMCC journal has stopped printing Ethanol related letters in the journal for a whole year! I just hope that exception is not made for the FBHVCwho I accuse of getting into bed with the government instead of supporting E0 fuel for historic vehicles.

Long live BP Ultimate in its current form. (Sorry Ian, you have to travel to the next County: How Green is that?)

I think the penny has dropped with the FBHVC? (Maybe)

Anyway, this can eliminate the evil solvent or at least thin it out a little where no suitable BP Ultimate available:

http://www.ilovemg.org/?p=2443

I had seen that, Neil, but the cost is just fantastic; 3 x + normal fuel costs. Combine that with safe storage issues, and the fact that it is not much help if you ride out of range of home, and I don't think it is much of an answer.

In the short term, additives which you can carry with you could help, although I don't have much faith in them either, tbh.

Hi Ian, I agree with you, although a tank full of good stuff will get you out of your contamination zone, so to speak!

The anti ethanol agents you can buy for about nine quid a bottle are not a total cure, they even state that and so you are right not to trust them. They appear to just weaken the ill effects and therefore slow down the attacks.

My former VMCC President said he had no problems with E5, using the anti ethanoladditive until he returned home from holiday last Summer, to find that the nasty stuff had been at work and caught up with his fuel system.

Via the VMCCjournal, I have been having a go at the FBHVC and their support for E5 as an acceptable fuel for historic vehicles. The latest issue on page 60 they ran an article on E0petrol, even though the editor had put a 12 month ban on discussing ethanol!

Well at least it was something positive but I really don't see the problem other than government meeting their renewable targets as this stuff is added at the distribution points. Talking it out would be a problem.

Happy New E0 Year.

My personal view is that Ethanol is here to stay.

An E petition might be better directed towards persuading those who make considerable sums of money supplying enthusiaststo develop and supplyspares which aregenuinely ethanol compatible (i.e. not just "resistant") at affordable costs.

And perhaps to persuade some of the experts on the scene to realise that times have changed and maybe methods and settings etc need to change with them.

But Charles, apart from helping to meet the governments self invented renewable targets: What is the point of Ethanol in petrol?

Neil - pass - that's beyond me. I am sure a petiton to the govenment would be well intentioned, I just fear it would be ignored.

Regards

Charles

Charles, you have a point in that all letters sent by me and others to their MP's have come back with the same blind response and refer to the RFTO. Nothing short of a General Election is allowed to stand in front of the Green Blob!

We just need to be clear who is against Green subsidies and put the X in the appropriate box.

Please explain how the transport system of S. America functions, when their fuel has contained 10% ethanol since before most of us were born.

I am NOT pro ethanol, but, instead of getting hysterical, find how to live with it. With regards to over heating, ethanol actually runs cooler.

When leaded petrol was banned, many said unleaded fuel would wreck the engines of classic vehicles, it didn't, neither will ethanol.

Old ground John and been discussed before. I'm just concerned that the Webmaster closes the thread down when we go over old ground but one more time: Some vehicles in Brazil have actually been developed to run on E85 but built to run on the stuff, don't try it in your standard Norton.

So, South America has had a long time to get used to Ethanol in fuel but I'm not seeing any feedback from South American riders on any issues, let alone ethanol, so how do you know they are not having problems? Unnecessary problems! If Ethanol is necessary then why?

Who's hysterical? Not me going around saying my carbon emissions (Not this week as it is too bloody cold) are causing catastrophic, cataclysmic, dangerous,. accelerating, runaway and unequivocal global warming!

Further, there were concerns about the removal of led from petrol but leaded fuel was still available after 2000 in the UK, albeit at a price and there are also lead substitute additivesavailable. But the wear through unhardened valve seats were proven to only be significant where full performance was used. No big issue for most of us.

On the other hand, there is a long list of materials that Ethanol attacks, the anti ethanol products, at a cost are not a total cure. There are many reports of ethanol damage, I reported on it in 2007. I have managed (to date) to use E0 petrol and no more issues. But you simply can't compare the removal of led with the inclusion of a solvent!

I think the point you are not getting, John, is that ethanol does not have to be added to the petrol tanker. There is no reason to deny you a choice other than government targets and that brings us back to the great global warming hoax! Follow the money, John.

Barry, I take your point BUT: many of us have several Norton's and 1) the cost and process would be great and also the disruption of suffering breakdown or damage in order to find out what components are susceptible to ethanol attack. Then there is the serviceablelife of components to consider. Not practical if one has more than a couple of machines.

Maintaining a standard (BS 40/40 or BS 70/70) for at least some petrol would allow consumers to know what they are buying. EN 228 was introduced by stealth, who is to say that ethanol might be substituted by some other agent, perhaps even more harmful to the fuel system than ethanol? It was introduced by stealth in 2006/7.

Putting aside the damage to the fuel system in historic vehicles, Ethanol has to be tankered (Not piped due to its hygroscopic nature) to the distribution points, often at great cost. Ethanol is subsidisedby the tax payer, a part of the £18.3 Billion a year the UK pays in fighting alleged man made global warming, as laid down in Ed Miliband's2008 Climate change Act.

If that is not enough to tell you this is a nonsensethen consider the fact that ethanol only has around 70% of the energy value of E0 petrol. In other words a lower MPG.

So, I ask you what is the point of Ethanol in petrol, other than to pay huge subsidies to land owners and producers, no longer growing crops to feed the world? Follow the money Baz, because we are all paying for this and I don't mean just ethanol proof bike parts!

Long live my BP Ultimate.

if we all sat around a solid oak chipboard table to discuss ethanol who would be qualified to debate the issue with the government scientists on our behalf and put the case over to them and tell them its destroying our engines .they will simply ask us for the proof of how its damaging them. i for one would not have the answer. Baz

You could put a fibreglass tank containing ethanol on the table, and watch as the interior of the tank dissolves; that would be a start.

Then put a nicely restored and painted tank containing ethanol on the table, and watch as the paint inside the filler is stripped by the fumes.

I could also show these so called scientists a big bag of Petsealtaken out of the tank filler of my Model 50 and ask them how such large chunks (Now hard) were pulled out of a small hole.

I still have the destroyed pet seal, shame I threw out all the other bits destroyed by ethanol.

This is not a time for throwing in the towel! Next Spring we have the chance to vote ethanol out. Or at least give us a choice.

One more thing for the scientists Barry: The last task the Late John Denver undertook before taking off in a light aircraft was to check his fuel to ensure there was NO ethanol content. Ethanol is not allowed for aviation purposes.

If Ethanol is not safe and reliable in the air then the same applies on the road! We should at least have a choice.

pre flight checks are a good thing at least to get the water content out of the fuel the more water there is and the longer it stays in the fuel cell it will seperate the ethanol from the fuel. and it will start on its corrosive path . Baz

Thanks for that Baz. Why anyone would want to encourage water into their tank I'll never know.

No wonder some 4 stroke riders put 2 stroke oil in their tanks!