500/600/650 cylinders

ive given up trying to find any new /good cylinders. perhaps it was the same years ago none available thats why they placed a triumph engine in instead.

was there a photo somewhere

Barry

I wonder if they would be spigoted?, those that did not want spigots could have them machined off.What would happen about the dynamo bikes and early bikes with different fin pattern?, lots to think about.

I heard that the club had made some enquiries into having some barrels cast, don't know if there was any progress from that?.

If the club actually manages to commission a batch of barrels for any Norton heavy twin I would faint! Maybe even die of shock!

hello the Original Norton blueprints from the factory are sat on by Peter Holland And he will not relinquishthem for some reason they're doing No good in his hands when the rest of the club needs them to make parts yours anna j

That is so sad, Anna. But: what man has made, man can make again. Reverse engineering jet fighters is a big job - but reverse engineering 1950's Nortons ought not to be. It's not as if they used especially advanced materials. Tolerances are a big issue (inside and outside fit etc) but for the blocks it sounds (from the above correspondence that they were a bit hit-and-miss anyway.

Was there something missing from Bruce's first mail here?

Regards

David

It's too bad Andover didn't just make them of aluminum with liners as Mick Hemmings did. One could use them as is, paint them silver, or paint them black.

As steel and alloy have different strengths its possible that a redesign is necessary , Dunstall Barrels had problems, You can't just make everything thicker, there is not enough room, and if you beef up just parts you can introduce stress raisers and unequal expansion. Unproven pattern parts can be killers. After they have been well tested and sucessfully incorporated in a production line machine you know you have a reliable spare part. Honda 750 cam chain tensioner anyone?.

That is so sad, Anna. But: what man has made, man can make again. Reverse engineering jet fighters is a big job - but reverse engineering 1950's Nortons ought not to be. It's not as if they used especially advanced materials. Tolerances are a big issue (inside and outside fit etc) but for the blocks it sounds (from the above correspondence that they were a bit hit-and-miss anyway.

Was there something missing from Bruce's first mail here?

Regards

David

Previously David Cooper wrote:

That is so sad, Anna. But: what man has made, man can make again. Reverse engineering jet fighters is a big job - but reverse engineering 1950's Nortons ought not to be. It's not as if they used especially advanced materials. Tolerances are a big issue (inside and outside fit etc) but for the blocks it sounds (from the above correspondence that they were a bit hit-and-miss anyway.

Was there something missing from Bruce's first mail here?

Regards

David

hello well I think it's time the NOC did something about these factory drawing blue prints we are in need of parts that are not made now so someone needs a wake-up call yours anna j

These places here do accomplished work!

http://www.uk-racing-castings.co.uk/

http://www.mfcpatterns-castings.co.uk/page3.htm

Surely any new venture in manufacturing should use modern materials. The barrels ideally should be using suitably aluminium alloys and lined!

There is an accomplished foundry in Sittingbourne or on the Isle of Sheppy, that casts parts for Motorcycle and old cars including the Racing variety!

If they can make barrels in Doncastor for JAP engines what's the big problem about Norton's, except the will to do it and a lack of cohesiveness and planning of the individuals concerned!

Oh! Hang on purists...

Cheers

John H

Oh! They can scan stuff now 3D model it make a hologram type thingy, improve things/design, shove it in a Computerised machining robot and bang you have your stuff, if they can make a Human arm, what's the big problem with an inert set of engine parts?

Cheers

John H

great theres your answer. someone already in the know. no experimenting with metal types and suitability ect

Barry

Previously Barry Carson wrote:

great theres your answer. someone already in the know. no experimenting with metal types and suitability ect

Barry

I presume you mean the "Specialist", all I personally know, is that firms exist that have been doing this kind of stuff for maybe yonks!

On the Vintage car side, stuff is being re-engineered and re-manufactured from obviously, modern metals and using modern production techniques all the time all the time.

You can I have on good authority make things better than the original components with 55-60 years of development available to metallurgists and the like!

Though about constructing a "Home" foundry though as a future thing to do!

Cheers

John H

John. thats what i meant the companys you referred to. they already have the systems in place . it seems daft the club doesn't at least inquire about manufacture of some barrels/cylinders.

Barry

Previously Skip Brolund wrote:

It's too bad Andover didn't just make them of aluminum with liners as Mick Hemmings did. One could use them as is, paint them silver, or paint them black.

plus 1 on that, Skip. Why bother with cast iron barrels any more?

We worked with MFC Patterns for many years, Mike the father could make a pattern for anything if it was at all possible. The last time I was at his works he was making a pattern for a replacement armrest for Concorde, it was almost finished when they pulled the plug. Send him a sample and get a price.

Regards

Dick

Why has no one from our EC been on here to update on the abysmal spares situation and pre Commando barrels as a case in point?

My current project, a 57 Model 50 was 8 years doing nothing until a member from Australia had some engine plates made for me. (Thanks Ian) Skip B got hold of a very rare bracket for me and the rear mudguard and headlamp shell came from NZ. (Thanks lads)

The shortage of barrels as mentioned above has been going on for years. About time the club explained themselves.

Why has no one from our EC been on here to update on the abysmal spares situation and pre Commando barrels as a case in point?

My current project, a 57 Model 50 was 8 years doing nothing until a member from Australia had some engine plates made for me. (Thanks Ian) Skip B got hold of a very rare bracket for me and the rear mudguard and headlamp shell came from NZ. (Thanks lads)

The shortage of barrels as mentioned above has been going on for years. About time the club explained themselves.

Joe S of Andover mentioned on these pages about new parts needing to be commercially viable and that is not always going to be the case with regard to much needed non available bits for old Norton's. Not much use then. Sorry Joe.

However, I had a chat with Roger at RGM a couple of weeks ago and surprisingly he was upbeat about supplying to demand, regardless of the viability. This is called providing a service.

In reality, club officials should be having this chat with the likes of RGM, armed with a list and templates where possible, if not; drawings.

When are they going to get started?

Joe S of Andover mentioned on these pages about new parts needing to be commercially viable and that is not always going to be the case with regard to much needed non available bits for old Norton's. Not much use then. Sorry Joe.

However, I had a chat with Roger at RGM a couple of weeks ago and surprisingly he was upbeat about supplying to demand, regardless of the viability. This is called providing a service.

In reality, club officials should be having this chat with the likes of RGM, armed with a list and templates where possible, if not; drawings.

When are they going to get started?

I wonder where the main costs lie? Firms like:

http://www.mfcpatterns-castings.co.uk/index.htm

can obviously do it. I wonder where the costs lie?

There are various stages:

drawing (which would need to be done from scratch based on measuring an existing barrel - but is not all that difficult to do privately)

pattern making. Is that done nowadays quite cheaply by 3-D printer direct from drawings? Or more expensively the old fashioned way by a skilled craftsman in wood? An existing barrel cannot be used as a pattern because the casting shrinks as it cools down.

casting - probably the simplest bit of the process in that castings might be made as part of a batch of other simultaneous products

inspection (don't want too many flaws - maybe the original manufacturer did not bother much with inspection, but allowed guarantees to fix any problems that arose?)

fettling and final machining - maybe the most expensive bit?

Of the above, the casting/inspection/fettling/machining should be much the same per casting for small or large orders, shouldn't it? But the pattern making is probably a major one-off cost to begin with. On the other hand - it's the bit that a skilled home craftsman can do by himself.

Of course there would probably need to be at least a few out-of-tolerance prototypes before the pattern is refined.

But how big is the market? That's a really big unknown in any business case.

We cannot expect Commando owners (who must be the majority of the club) being happy to see thousands of pounds spent ("invested") in a project to provide half a dozen barrels, can we? But can any parts of the investment (expenditure) be short-circuited by amateurs or ex-professional club members?

You said it, David: A Commando Club.

I do have a Commando but what about support for my (Our) other machines? They are all Norton's. (In my case)

Still no comment from the EC.

Previously David Cooper wrote:

I wonder where the main costs lie? Firms like:

http://www.mfcpatterns-castings.co.uk/index.htm

can obviously do it. I wonder where the costs lie?

There are various stages:

drawing (which would need to be done from scratch based on measuring an existing barrel - but is not all that difficult to do privately)

pattern making. Is that done nowadays quite cheaply by 3-D printer direct from drawings? Or more expensively the old fashioned way by a skilled craftsman in wood? An existing barrel cannot be used as a pattern because the casting shrinks as it cools down.

casting - probably the simplest bit of the process in that castings might be made as part of a batch of other simultaneous products

inspection (don't want too many flaws - maybe the original manufacturer did not bother much with inspection, but allowed guarantees to fix any problems that arose?)

fettling and final machining - maybe the most expensive bit?

Of the above, the casting/inspection/fettling/machining should be much the same per casting for small or large orders, shouldn't it? But the pattern making is probably a major one-off cost to begin with. On the other hand - it's the bit that a skilled home craftsman can do by himself.

Of course there would probably need to be at least a few out-of-tolerance prototypes before the pattern is refined.

But how big is the market? That's a really big unknown in any business case.

We cannot expect Commando owners (who must be the majority of the club) being happy to see thousands of pounds spent ("invested") in a project to provide half a dozen barrels, can we? But can any parts of the investment (expenditure) be short-circuited by amateurs or ex-professional club members?