Hi all,
In this months Roadholder a correspondent had reduced oil leaks on his machine by fitting a PCV valve (one-way valve) into his breather pipe and I want to do the same to my two Nortons. Norton 1 is a 1966 Atlas, with the standard timed breather arrangement, the pipe goes into the froth tower of the oil tank, then down to the back chainguard. Norton 2, a 1971 Commando, has the timed breather blocked off and a breather taken from the back of the timing cover, where the plate goes on to blank off the hole formed for the starter, which in the event Norton didn't fit. Like the Atlas, this feeds to the oil tank and thence to atmosphere (a catch tank I fitted in the battery box). It also has a breather added by me to the inlet valve rocker cover which goes direct to the catch tank. Now the question. The breather from the rocker box I can put the one way valve anywhere in the line, that's not a problem. But with the others, should I put it in before the oil tank, which suggests to me it might pressurize the tank, or after in the line leading to atmosphere?
Before the tank
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PCV valve in breather
Thanks, Graham Pickering. They should arrive Monday, so will be plumbed in before the tank as you suggest. Ref the blocked off timed breather, I'm pretty sure the extra holes into the crankcase have been drilled, either when it was blanked off by a PO, or when I had the bottom end rebuilt by Norvil; I did specify to check it had been done and if not to drill the holes whilst the engine was apart. The drive side crankcase was replaced at that time, as it had split from a stud hole almost to the centre line, so was unrepairable and since this side contains the breather it would have to have been disassembled.
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Crankcase mods for timing chest breathing
Search "Crancase mods for timing chest breathing" and scroll down to the bottom and you will see the photos I mentioned above.
I found that if the timed breather discs have been removed and even if the cam doesn't have the breather holes in it on the left side, if you take the plug out of the original breather connection and put a bit of pipe on it you can still blow really freely onto the crankcase so if your going to use a PCV it still might be worth including that connection into your breathing system. Or did the new crankcase half not even have the connection?
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PCV valve in breather
Grant Tiller, interesting. I see what you are getting at, but if that were the case, I would expect to find a fair bit of oil in my catch tank, but I didn't really. What was in there was water with a slight film of oil on top. The water was a surprise, but I suppose it shouldn't be, an engine produces a gallon of water for every gallon of petrol burnt, or somesuch. The idea to fit a rocker breather wasn't mine, I've seen it on other Norton, usually racers. It is a standard fitment on D Vincents, the enclosed ones where the timed breather was dispensed with and is offered as a mod for earlier bikes (I have a C Rapide with the timed breather blanked off and an "Elephant's Trunk" breather from the timing case and this massively improved the oil tightness of the engine). I know this is a different engine, but it's still an OHV twin which relies on drain down to lubricate the cams and followers. On a D Vincent the breather goes from the valve cap on the rear cylinder, the highest point of the engine, as does my fitment to the Commando. I don't know if this would make any difference. My understanding of the Commando was that the top end is pretty wet anyway, as it has a positive feed to the rockers, straight off the oil pump, as do late Dommis/Atlas, instead of the take off from the return pipe on earlier models.
Graham, I might try that. The parts can be ordered from Fair Spares/Andover Norton. Ref the crankcase mods, there is a clear diagram in the Haynes manual showing you where to drill the holes. But as I explained, the bottom end rebuild was done by Fair Spares, not me, so I don't know for sure, but having discussed it with them at the time I would hope it was done correctly. Les and the team offer a warranty on engine builds, so I'm sure they would be aware of this mod! The cam was replaced at the time (I wish while the crankcases were apart I had had the PW cam fitted, which needed extra fettling of the cases but I opted for the standard SS).
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About 12 years ago, I did…
About 12 years ago, I did some research and wrote an article:-
https://www.nortonownersclub.org/html/archive/rh/302/22/index.html
Which ended with me saying "I have not found any ill effects from this mod".
I have now changed this view based on a number of 850MkIII Commado's that have been worked on in the intervening years. Without exception, bikes with a very effective breather system i.e. not the 'as supplied' system, have problems with condensation and 'cream' in the oil tank.
Once the system is put back to standard, so a good blast of air can go in and out, the cream vanishes.
Has anyone else seen this?
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Afternoon Tony My Mk3 must…
Afternoon Tony
My Mk3 must be an exception, a non std breather system, a short pipe from the rear of the timing chest to a reed valve (from an xs650 i believe) then up to the oil tank, connecting to the spigot adjacent the filler cap, then from the oil tank vent a short pipe ending and pointing to the air filter. Note the passage from the engine to the oil tank, including the reed valve is all uphill.
No mayonnaise evident at the tank or at the oil tank vent pipe. I think problems arise when the PCV or reed valve are situated at a distance from the engine. Pipework convoluted allowing traps to form etc (trying to hide said system doesn't help this) That along with short rides and infrequent use, not allowing the engine/oil tank/breather system to warm through and drive off any moisture.
With the standard system any mayonnaise formed was drawn into the engine and burnt.
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well about 5 years ago I…
well about 5 years ago I found I had the white cream in my Commando MK3 oil tank,so after the Engine build I done I did put in a PCV valve in the line and put in a catch tank and bocked off the return Breather back to the oil tank, well that has worked well as I don't get the white cream in the oil Tank No more I just have to empty the Catch Tank about once a mouth and let that cream drain out... also I put in the Breather from the Catch Tank and rooted that out the Back of the rear Mudguard and that never gets anything come out of there other than Air..so all been a good set up I think.
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Tony Ripley and Maurice…
Tony Ripley and Maurice Cloud, I wonder if the "cream" depends on what oil you are using and also the mileage. I did read your article BTW Maurice - very interesting. As noted above, I found water in my catch tank but no oil. Interestingly, when I modified the breathing on the Vincent, which contains a PCV valve, I got a fair amount of cream out of the breather at the rear of the bike, using Castrol GP50. At that time, I hadn't got round to blanking off the timed breather, now I have the cream has gone (I'm also now using Penrite "HD" 25/70 oil). Don't know what that proves. I don't get "cream" in the Nortons at the moment, using the same oil. I always used to get water out of the bottom of the tank when draining them for oil changes. The "cream" as I understand it is emulsified oil and water mixture. You get less of it if you reduce the number of short rides you do, to make sure the engine is up to operating temperature. I've heard that leading a breather to atmosphere near the rear wheel can have a negative effect, as the spinning wheel creates a semi-vacuum, which draws oil out of the bike. You have to ensure the end of the pipe is well clear of the wheel or pointed outwards. I've also seen bikes with the breather nearly dragging on the floor, which, since the breather sucks as well as blows, could lead to foreign matter from the road being ingested - not something you want! Another reason for a one-way valve!
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Breathers
A few "Roadholder's" ago I described how I copied the crank case breather system from the Velo Venom and the B and C range Triumph twins for my Navigator. This arrangement increased the volume that the crankcase breaths into, by using the primary chain case as a plenum chamber. With the Navigator, I would guess this doubled the volume available, the big twins even more? A large bore pipe connects the chain case with the oil tank, (more volume increase), and, finally a suitable pipe to atmosphere.
I speculated that it should work well on the big twins. It was a big improvement on the Velo's and Triumphs. The Commando with its leak free cast primary chain case would be an ideal candidate to try this. Not a "bolt on" modification, some work would be needed to arrange, the chain case self levelling arrangement might need some thought.
I would really like to see someone try this with a Commando. As I mentioned, it was huge improvement on the other bikes mentioned, should be with a Commando.
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Breathing thru the primary chaincase
Seems the factory did experiment with it:
https://www.nortonownersclub.org/forum/mk3-primary-chaincase-breather
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Read and commented on that..;
It could have been a breather for just the chain case? Or for the crank case, I wonder if was there any provision to control the oil level in the case. Also, the 1/2" pipe size was queried, bigger the better, pumping losses, triumph used a 5/8" bore pipe.
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Creamy caps
Three years ago I changed my 650 engine's engine oil over from a Mineral 20W50 to a fully Synthetic 20W50 version.
The result being 3 most welcome positives.
First my bike stopped smoking out the neighbours on a cold morning start.
Secondly, my long, high speed rides stopped consuming oil at an embarrassing rate. I now get 200 miles for a 250ml refill whereas previously it was only 100 miles.
Lastly, the oil cap no longer wears a coating of creamy coloured gunge.
OK.........this is not the cheapest oil around but the benefits gained, for a few extra quid more per tankful, has made this a good change.
Adding a little more to the Breather Saga above. In the late 1990s, spoke with John Hudson about alternative engine breathing arrangements such as timing cover vents & valves. He informed me that the designed 'bellows' effect for lubricating the timing cover chains, sprockets and pinions would possibly change and lead to excessive wear. Also that the continual negative pressure inside the crankcases might lead to extra loading on the camshaft follower ends.
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Breathers
John Crocker, would this work on the big twins? Surely there is an oil seal on the crank, so the air in the crankcase can't get in there (of course you could remove the seal, but would this have ramifications for the main bearing that side?).
My main concerns now are: 1) do I still go ahead with fitting the one way valves; 2) should I blank off the breather hole in the inlet rocker cover and instead reinstate one from the original crankcase breather location, with or without one way valve?
Also, what happened to Grant Tiller's comment?
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I wonder why the timed breather is blocked off. Adding a breather to the back of the timing chest doesn't really help if there are not additional holes drilled between the timing chest and the crankcase because there's not enough free passage for the air created by the pistons to pass though. To answer your question though the PCV should go before the tank. As long as the tank is vented to the atmosphere as it should be all will be well. I saw a nice photo someone sent in of a breather system where the pipe from the timing chest was teed into the standard pipe from the timed breather. He had machined and mounted the PCV directly onto the starter motor blanking plate. That will only work if the timed breather discs are still installed on the end of your cam though. There are quite a lot of places to fit the PCV but it depends which oil tank you have.