New A.N.Oil Pumps VERDICT.

I am in the middle of applying an improved AMR type anti sump scheme.

1. Machine the timing outer cover so a ball and spring can be fitted that when the engine is off blocks off the pump outlet. Just waiting for some EPDM 1/4" balls to finish this bit off, based on my current findings from anti sump valves in the return line working best with a rubber seat and steel ball a EPDM ball and steel seat should work just as well.

2. X ring seals fitted to machined grooves in the oil pump so oil cannot pass from the feed side to the return side internally within the pump along the shafts to then fill up the sump.

I have been reconditioning gear oil pumps for 25 years so very much had my doubts on the A N ones being any better than a properly DIY reconed pump, thanks for confirming.

Only issue to fixing the wet sumping is that it is a gauge of when your pump needs a recon, filling the sump in a couple of months says its ok, couple of weeks and you need to act. So without this gauge it just has to be added to routine maintenance eg every 15k to 20k miles.

This forum software needs updating, I tried to post a comment and was told it had not gone through, so I post a second time to find it actually had been posted the first time after all.

Well, I've posted on here that an Andover pump has given me better results than I've had with the previous four or five new pumps (including a Nourish) and it worked on a friend's 16H as well so the use of the term 'gossip' seems a little unfair.

Perhaps they keep a special batch of pumps to give the grumpy customers something to complain about ?

Previously les_howard wrote:

Richard Payne insults:

"Perhaps they keep a special batch of pumps to give the grumpy customers something to complain about ?"

Totally uncalled for you TWAT!.....Les

And so was that....

Les, I value what both you and Richard have to say on this forum

When I read Richard's comment I just thought it a bit of a laugh but clearly you didn't see it that way, reading your reply. I understand that too.

I'd rather keep my wet sumping than any fall out between owners that know their stuff. That would be a big loss.

Hope we can forget this and move on, after all it's the Northern riding season now, time to enjoy.

7 months early for this but: 'Peace on Earth, good will to all men.' (& Anna)

Grumpy customer? Call that an insult? Dear oh dear, you are a sensitive fellow! It sounded like a joke to me, as it did to Neil. Maybe it was the time of night which affected your judgement when you made your uncalled for, offensive and disproportionate response. Had you slept on it, I suspect your response would have been different this morning, although your answer to that is predictable. You threw the first insult by your dismissal of other contributors findings on the subject as gossip, in the face of your clearly far superior opinion. Now you are lashing out with your insults, angry that you have been challenged, calling me stupid. Where will this stop? You must stop this right now, and temper your behaviour. This is no place for your vitriol.

Time for our webmaster to close this thread, with luck.

I rest my case!

i am typing this from up the loft hiding under the insulation until things settle. thanks for the info with regards to the oil pump Les. you would think there would be some sort of quality control with such an important component.

Barry

Hey guys stop all the in fighting between yourselves. Remember this type of behaviour is supposed to be addressed to us 961 owners.

Good Grief ! I quite agree with Barry's comment and would actually have hoped that the oil pumps would (at least briefly) have been put on a test rig, although even with inaccuracies they probably deliver sufficient pressure.

I do stand by my initial impression that the original poster was being unfairly dismissive of those lesser-qualified beings who had reported positively on their experience with the pumps, going back some years. Could it be that there is a quality control problem with recent production ? I sincerely hope not, but regardless it does not cause previous, honestly reported information to become 'gossip'.

Unfortunately, the diatribe against AN also become one against fellow members who had dared to suggest the contrary to this as-yet unreported information.

I actually thought that a humorous aside was the best way of dealing with that. If someone calls me a miserable beggar on a forum it's simply a reflection of everyday life...but then I learned to deal with that sort of thing in the primary school...probably the first time that a teacher referred to me as 'Payne-in-the-arse' actually.

Best way, Richard. I only once spit the dummy out when someone on here called me a coward. Nothing could be further from the truth. Hope we can continue to have discussions with humour here and there without the grief.

Talking of discussions, when is someone going to discuss tin primary chain case inners?

No Way Mr Cordes..... Does someone have to include an insult just to back up what they are saying? Why didn't Mr Payne just write up his message with the experience and details he had without needing to add the final nasty comment?, I am as ever always interested in any ones findings as it generally proves to be useful but as said, why does someone need to or even have the right to add a cynical nasty and unjust insult?Please tell me why and then tell me Mr Cordes why did you not censure Mr Paynes totally unnecessary final remark?...Stop being so stupidly PC. and stand up for the victim and not the assailant....Les

Anna, what "oil pump shaft rubbers" are we talking about here? Your statement that the oil will only be pumping air is incorrect. Provided you have oil in the tank the feed side of the pump is primed and the "large ends" will be fed. The scavenge side of the pump may not have much to do if you have just drained the crankcases but on any engine just shut down, residual oil will drain from the inside surfaces and be there to prime the scavenge side of the pump. ( plus whatever drains through the pump during wets sumping) I have a theory that a chunk of oil hides in the timing case and only shows itself on shutdown by creeping through the timing side main bearing past the washer and into the crankcases.

I have just taken an oil pump apart and the gears vary in diameter by 0.004" so measuring the bores the clearance varies by between 0.002" and 0.006". Can someone post a picture of the O ring mod so I can consider doing it myself? thanks.

These are my original notes on the oil pump mod.

That leaves the internal leak inside the oil pump, you dismantle the pump and then take the body and on the feed side open out the two 3/8" holes to 1/2" for a depth of .093 to .098. This is for the 3/8" ID 1/16" Cross section 1/2" OD rings. I use quad rings in this position Model: QR-012 3/8"ID X 1/2"OD X 1/16"CS as it is a marginal application and a proper garter seal would be best but space is limited and a garter seal would compromise the gear teeth seal and reduce pressure made.

And there is a pic here using O rings

http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac84/Nancydesigns/Pete/Norton/GEDC1061.jpg

The .093 to .098 depth is for when the diameter of the hole is to the correct formula for O ring crush which is slightly smaller than a 1/2" milling cutter makes so I instead went for 0.090 to compensate and this works.

Note that the space in the O ring groove must always be greater that the O ring volume.

X rings give you 4 sealing surfaces against 2 of a round O ring.

Anna, what "oil pump shaft rubbers" are we talking about here? Your statement that the oil will only be pumping air is incorrect. Provided you have oil in the tank the feed side of the pump is primed and the "large ends" will be fed. The scavenge side of the pump may not have much to do if you have just drained the crankcases but on any engine just shut down, residual oil will drain from the inside surfaces and be there to prime the scavenge side of the pump. ( plus whatever drains through the pump during wets sumping) I have a theory that a chunk of oil hides in the timing case and only shows itself on shutdown by creeping through the timing side main bearing past the washer and into the crankcases.

I have just taken an oil pump apart and the gears vary in diameter by 0.004" so measuring the bores the clearance varies by between 0.002" and 0.006". Can someone post a picture of the O ring mod so I can consider doing it myself? thanks.

Hi John, David and Anna. Thanks very much for the replies here. Regarding the fitting of O rings on the shaft to prevent through leakage from the feed side through to the scavenge side and then down to the sump......The way I'm visualising it is that if the main body and end plates has been accurately ground flat to leave zero clearance between the sides of each gear wheel (4 off) there is a complete blockage of the oil route anyway?. I don't have a dismantled pump to hand but perhaps I'm overlooking something? ....Les

Les

"The way I'm visualising it is that if the main body and end plates has been accurately ground flat to leave zero clearance between the sides of each gear wheel (4 off) there is a complete blockage of the oil route anyway?"

If there is zero clearance then the pump will not turn, you need a clearance even if its 0.0005 to allow the pump to spin, if its too stiff you wear the drive gears out or even break them. Even with the smallest clearance that ideal state does not last for long, I deliberately recon mine a bit tight and then spin them slowly on my lathe for 15 mins fed with oil and they loosen up enough to fit. Even a typical auto oil filter only works down to 30 microns, so the oil collects fine particles that wear out the pump as you ride. So you are best assuming your pump will leak and plan accordingly.

Wet sumping is a problem with all my Norton's except for my slimline Model 50. I bought The rebuilt engine from a gentleman called John Hill from Stafford in 1992. Never had it apart so what ever he did he did it right. After nearly a year of storage there was still less than a cup full of oil in the sump.(Tea cup)

On the other hand, I have a Dominator oil pump boxed up and oiled with a hand written note from the gentleman who serviced it. His name: John Hudson. I wonder if there is a secret within that pump? Pump never used since the service by John.

Of course, back in the day there was no problem as the bikes were started most days and used rather than stored. Starting your Norton's more often is one answer but not getting them hot enough creates other issues!

I forgot to say that I use 40 SAE in my singles, topping up as necessary with a bit of SAE 30 at the back end, when a bit cooler.

That said, wet sumping was no worse on my Mk3 Commando when I changed from SAE 40 to 20-50.

Les, do you have the source for this clipping?

Previously les_howard wrote:

Bringing this older thread back to life. I noticed the interesting write up regarding the manufacture of Norton Pumps by the AMC factory. Note that it appears the clearance of the gear teeth tips to the body was, as suggested by me, virtually RUBBING..This is why an original well made Norton pump will pass very little oil back to the sump via the feed side. Unfortunately making the pump with too wide a clearance is never going to produce the same seal....Read the attachment:

Greetings,

Not wishing to "Hijack" Les but have a look here:

http://www.workingatamc.london/images/links/article_working_for_amc.pdf

Rgds Steve

Thanks to Les and Steve for this: from the July '88 edition of Classic Bike, I see -- I should have a copy of this issue myself, somewhere in deep storage.

Previously les_howard wrote:

Hi Julian...Thanks for asking and as you can see above Steve Adkins has kindly posted the link from where I sniped it from...quite an interesting story I think....Les

Previously steve_adkins wrote:

Greetings,

Not wishing to "Hijack" Les but have a look here:

http://www.workingatamc.london/images/links/article_working_for_amc.pdf

Rgds Steve

From the article:

"I think the best all-round bike that Plumstead made was the 650SS Manxman"

Vindicated Anna!

Bruce

Previously steve_adkins wrote:

Greetings,

Not wishing to "Hijack" Les but have a look here:

http://www.workingatamc.london/images/links/article_working_for_amc.pdf

Rgds Steve

From the article:

"I think the best all-round bike that Plumstead made was the 650SS Manxman"

Vindicated Anna!

Bruce

Hello WELL ALL THE MANXMANs were built at Bracebrdge Street the Plumstead 650ss export bikes were a diffrent animal that had less parts than the Bracebridge street machnies witch where better made in my book I would never look at anything that came out of Plumbstead but thats just me! I Am a pure Bracebridge street enthusats where the Real Norton s came from plumstaed bikes were just copys this may up set you but the best of all Nortons where made in Bracebridge Street inculding the Manx Norton And by the time these bikes were being made the wrting was on the wall for plumbstead they went bust in 1966 Yours Anna J

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously Bruce Mitchell wrote:

Previously steve_adkins wrote:

Greetings,

Not wishing to "Hijack" Les but have a look here:

http://www.workingatamc.london/images/links/article_working_for_amc.pdf

Rgds Steve

From the article:

"I think the best all-round bike that Plumstead made was the 650SS Manxman"

Vindicated Anna!

Bruce

Hello WELL ALL THE MANXMANs were built at Bracebrdge Street the Plumstead 650ss export bikes were a diffrent animal that had less parts than the Bracebridge street machnies witch where better made in my book I would never look at anything that came out of Plumbstead but thats just me! I Am a pure Bracebridge street enthusats where the Real Norton s came from plumstaed bikes were just copys this may up set you but the best of all Nortons where made in Bracebridge Street inculding the Manx Norton And by the time these bikes were being made the wrting was on the wall for plumbstead they went bust in 1966 Yours Anna J

Oh well... I did wonder at the 650ss Manxman, I thought the Manxman was just 650.