Castrol R. If you intend to keep using it, you might be best to drain it after each run rather than leave the engine standing with 'R' in it for long periods of time. It is s bit prone to forming gums and a very hard varnish if left. It is an excellent lubricant and smells wonderful. If changing to a mineral oil (as I have done in the past and am currently doing with a racing Rudge), I run the engine gently for 20 mins with a diesel grade oil, which is high detergent, then drained it, then done it again, before filling with a good SAE40. Some would advocate a total engine strip if changing from R to mineral. I'm not sure that would achieve anything that running on flushing oil or diesel oil wouldn't. I stand to be corrected! Gordon.

I am a bit wary of using very high detergent flushing oil as it could dislodge any lumps of sludge, so that's why I go for a normally detergent diesel oil. What I actually use is tractor universal 10W-30 diesel oil, because I have plenty of it. It's interesting as it is also for use in hydraulics and very high spec, though surprisingly cheap. It's thin, but you are just using it for 20 mins light running. The Velo 24 hr 100 mph record was done on 10W-40 oil, so it shouldn't cause problems. You might be happpier with a 20W-50 though. Of course the other thing to do is clean out the oil tank thoroughly first of all.

Data for your model 30:

Valve clearance in: .010", ex .020". Ignition 42 1/2 degrees btdc fully advanced. Inlet opens 47 1/2 btdc, inlet closes 70 abdc, ex opens 85 bbdc, ex closes 42 1/2 atdc. To check valve timing, set inlet and exhaust tappets to .004".

Generally pilot screw out 1 1/2 turns to start with. Hope that helps. Data from 1957 book. Gordon.

Morris lubricants do an oil called MLR 30, and 40, this is basically a synthetic oil with the qualities of caster oil (in other words it smells good). It doesn't mix with mineral oils but can go straight in your bike without problem if you're using R.

Here's what it says about it:

MLR 40

MLR30 and MLR40 are engine oils manufactured from high quality first pressing castor oil. Synthetic base fluids are incorporated to achieve SAE 30 and SAE 40 classifications, which in turn help to reduce or eliminate the traditional problems of deposits and lacquers, usually associated with these types of oil. All of the advantages of a castor-based product have been retained, including a naturally higher and tougher film strength, very high load carrying capacity, better wetting properties and reduced power loss due to friction.

ApplicationsMLR 30 and MLR 40 are recommended for four stroke grass-track and classic machines where castor-based products are preferred. These grades may also be suitable for premix use in two stroke applications with both petrol and methanol fuels.For speedway use, where the virtues of castor oil has been recognised for many years, MLR 50 protects and lubricates engines primarily designed to run on these traditional oils. With the possibility of excess moisture being present when running on methanol, all MLR grades contain corrosion inhibitors to help combat potential problems.

Hi Mark,

With regard to your engine, strip it making notes and taking photo's as you do so. Clean all internal parts with an alcohol based substance ie; methanol or methylated spirit. Do not use flushing oil of any sort, despite what some people have said, it willnot do the job correctly and the end result could be a damaged engine as R is not compatable with mineral oil.

Ian TVNOC.

It's up to you... Ideally if you change to a mineral oil you should do the full strip and clean. However, I have used my flushing twice with diesel oil successfully. Yes, vegetable oils and mineral oils don't mix at all. Oddly, I bought a new Chinese-made tractor 10 years ago and the engine and transmission were filled with vegetable-based oil. It too took a couple of oil changes to clear the immiscible blobs of original oil out. Fundamentally, Castrol R provides unparalled boundary-layer lubrication with molecules adhering strongly to the wearing surfaces. These are pretty much immovable with any solvent. Only a fair bit of use will see these slowly removed and replaced by molecules from the mineral-based oil. What worked for me may or may not work for you. Gordon.

Never come accross that MLR oil before. Has anyone actually used it in their Inter or Manx and have and feedback on it?

I've got it in my double knocker long stroke Manx, it mixed with what was already in there without any problem. I've just got the bike road legal so it gets more use. As far as I can see it's the best way to go.

http://s1080.beta.photobucket.com/user/Horror/media/IMAG1910.jpg.html?sort=3&o=44

Which brings us neatly to the question: why are so few Manx's like Dave Graham's and road legal? There must be far more of them on display or used for the occasional show than there are used on the road. I know the gearbox is ridiculous for road use, but that's easy enought to change, isn't it? And the engine is just - an engine. They turn up at Brooklands for runs up the test hill - any bike suitable for trickling round the paddock and zooming up the test hill - followed by a trickle back the beginning - is surely roadworthy? Are they just (perish the thought!) not very nice bikes?

One of the worst rides I ever had was on a DBD 34 with RRT2 gearbox - no kickstart naturally - along Edinburgh's Princes Street in rush hour. The tall first gear meant the clutch was never home. The clutch overheated and ran out of adjustment and dragged. And bump starting one of these beasts with a dragging clutch on the level in heavy traffic really isn't a heap of fun. Never have I been so pleased to get off a bike. It may have been lovely on the open road. I never did find out. Road legal but a mite impractical.

I totally agree with you Gordon, I was actually looking for aFeatherbed Inter like this post started about, that had a kick start andlights. The Manx came up at the right time, although I'm determined it's notgoing to go everywhere in a van. I think the long stroke engine is more useableon the road like an OHC ES2 really. I set the timing at 35 degs BTDC and theExhaust clearance at 20 and Inlet at 10 thou and it starts easily with a bumponce I realised it's a different technique to bumping a twin. I put it in 1stgear, roll the bike back until it hits compression, a short push and dump theclutch being ready to pull it back in before it flies off down the road withoutme. I don't jump on the seat (that's too energetic) I just stay by the side.One of the worse things is the steering lock, or lack of it and I'll have to dosomething about that.

Andy Savage helped me set the valve clearanceone afternoon on the pavement outside his house. It was a very hot day and I wasn't looking forward to push it up and down the street trying to start it. He said noproblem I'll start it on the back wheel...!

Take a look

http://s1080.beta.photobucket.com/user/Horror/media/VIDEO0031.mp4.html

In the shed I have a 1931 Rudge TT Replica - the racing version of the Rudge Ulster. I'm hoping to get it on the road for next season. Despite my DBD 34 experiences, I'm really looking forward to the outrageous valve timing, narrow power band, close ratio box and high first gear, minimal steering lock and of course no kickstart. The current mount for scaring myself in traffic is a 1913 Douglas. Minimal brakes, 2 gears, no clutch and a very hit and miss throttle response. Every start a bump start and don't get stopped at half way up a hill...

We could always trade these dinosaurs for something modern and sensible. Huh!

Hi Dave. Are you draining the tank inbetween rides? I've heard this is important with most castor oils and I want to avoid having to do this. Does the MLR completely eliminate the need to do this? I'd never come accross it before but it looks like a very good alternative. I'm in the process of building my engine up so it has no oil in it and mixing wont be a problem as I will settle on an oil before its first fill and hopefully stick to it.

Very nice bike by the way, I will be very happy if mine comes out looking like that. I will also be registering it for the road and using it as much as possible as well.

http://s1150.beta.photobucket.com/user/AndyMarks14/library/1934%20Norton

What superb bikes! I am green with envy. I have never seen a bike started like that - amazing... Great that they are going to be out and about on the roads too. Gordon.

Hi Andy, No I haven't drained the tank all I've done is drain the crank cases and put the oil back in the tank. I checked the paperwork I got with the bike and it was the previous owner who told me it had Morris oil in it. I think the oil is more synthetic than caster, and this has solved the problems.

That'll be a great bike when you've finished and I can see you're doing a grand job. I remember seeing it on ebay a while back. You've had a lot of parts to find so well done

Hi Mark, I haven't got a lot of tech info, could you post a picture of the page where you get 42.5 degs BTDC please. The book I do have shows between 34 and 37.5 depending on the compression ratio. This is for the single and double knocker long stroke engines.

Here's a copy of the pagehttp://s1080.beta.photobucket.com/user/Horror/media/Manxlongstrokemagtiming.jpg.html

Andy Savage double checked my timing before he started the bike and that was about 35 degs BTDC.

I would have thought 42.5 would make the bike an animal to start. Barry Stickland also said my timing was wrong and it should be set at forty something. I think he said his was set at 49..? Sounds very advanced to me. I did see him bump starting his bike, the back wheel was locking up and almost skidding backwards. However, I have kept the adv/retard lever on my Manx so I can retard it to start if needed.

I've been doing a bit more searching through paperwork and found this Manx reference data for short and long stroke engines.

http://s1080.beta.photobucket.com/user/Horror/media/Manxreferencedatalongandshortstroke.jpg.html

As you can see the timing for the short stroke 350cc is 40 BTDC and the 500cc is 35 BTDC

The long stroke, for both capacities is 36 BTDC for up to 10:1 comp ratio and 34 BTDC for above 10:1 Comp ratio

Here's the ignition timing info, presumably for an Inter. I would expect a Manx to have less advance due to its higher compression ratio. Gordon.

Thank you both for the info, that's interesting and confusing. Thanks for the page from the book Gordon. The NOC website says 30Mby mistake,which would be a Manx, but either way it says 8:1 c/r which according to my book would make the timing 36 degs for compression ratios between 7.5-10:1 maybe my books wrong and I need to advance the Manx a bit.

The proof is in the pudding, as they say and you'll soon know if it's too advanced or not. You can alter it on the adv/ret lever and see how it feels.

Good luck tonight setting your Inter up and hopefully it'll burst into life.

Could you post a picture..?

I will add that the Morris MLR40 is recommended by the majority of people who race the later Manxes, and is the only oil that Molnar will let you use in one of their new engines. Morris MLR stays a stable, golden colour. Castrol R however is purple tinted when new and this rapidly changes in sunlight to a dark brown. Both castor oils have the ability to protect the big end rollers thumping onto the crankshaft, and people who have tried new mineral oils have had big end failure (this is oft repeated folklore in the race paddock but I have no evidence of a name to point to). Such protection on a road going bike that is not trying to reach 7,500 RPM (or 8,500 on the new engines) is probably unnecessary.

All the previous comment about not mixing mineral and castor oils is important. Cellulose paint thinners is a good solvent for castor oil. The better grades of thinner contain also ethyl acetate and other esters which clear castor oil gums very well.

The problem with road use of castor oils is that they will rarely get hot enough and after a run they will be full of condensed water and black carbon, neither of which dissolve in the oil and will settle to the bottom of the oil tank over several days. The same happens when you race just a few laps. I used to always drain the oil off when warm and it came out blackish. Leave it in a big plastic container for a few days and a layer of water will form at the bottom with all the black carbon in it. Decant off the golden stuff from the top for reuse. Mind you, I know of several who leave their castor oil in for a whole season and appear to suffer no extra problems so it is a matter of preference.

Just because the magneto will cause a spark to jump between the lead and the sparkplug terminal, it doesn't mean that the plug is making a spark.

The plug could be internally fouled making the spark go direct to ground.

Try it out with the plug out resting on the head.

If you have got a spark on the plug, resting it on the head as suggested by Michael, then any petrol in there has to catch. After a few kicks take the plug out: if it is dry then no fuel is getting through, if it is wet than the plug is fouling before it gets to fire.

A hand over the bellmouth while turning over helps suck in fuel. Kick it with the throttle open only a fraction (1 - 3 mm) as more will lessen the amount of fuel drawn up.

I'm afraid you can't assume the plug is ok because it's new, you need to test the plug on the head as mentioned. I have had lots of trouble with new NGK plugs and this is exactly the same problem I had with my Manx when I got it. I had 2 very tired friends after they tried bumping my bike up and down the road. I checked the plug and there was no spark, although new. I changed it for one out of my Commando and it had a fantastic spark. I changed the plug for another new one and it started very easily as the video I posted shows.

I had this starting 'problem' with my '57 500 Inter. Barry Stickland advised me to give it plenty of fuel, (Unleaded 4* doctored with Millers VSP Fuel Octane booster and lead substitute additive) although Barry recommends - I think he said - he gets Texaco 100 Octane UL (no ethanol in this apparently) from his local forecourt with no additives for his cammy bikes (but check with him first) don't worry about flooding, it won't, the excess fuel will drain off via the pilot bleed hole, then a bit of advance, air closed, and after easing over TDC compression stroke a good long kick. If it doesn't fire 1st or 2nd kick then flood it again! Never had a problem since then. Barry also advised me not to use any plug/plug cap with a resistor in it which he found fitted when he 'breathed' on it a couple of years ago and removed it. Plug NGK B7E S.

Oil? I have use Millers 'Kasterblend' (now called CB40) for the last decade with no problems. In my view it's better then R' you don't need to drain off, no stains or gumming and performs just as well if not better. (and smells the same as 'R') Barry opined he had never seen a better oil pump. Internals down below all fine. Just needed cam box reapacking and a few valve gear bits (some from Andy Molnar) up top.

Good luck but speak to Barry if you don't resolve it.

Hi Mark, I think Ian has provided some very useful info fromexperience of riding an Inter and as people are trying to help you, it doesn'tdeserve a reply like that..! He doesn't say anything about testing the plug,but is telling you what plug to use and not to use, which is very helpful. Itis easy to buy a resistor plug by mistake or the shop giving you one as thenorm these days.

I have read back through your posts and at no time have you saidyou have rested the plug on the head and got a spark at the tip. In fact youhave argued with everyone who's advised you to do that, saying a spark from thelead to the top of the plug is proof enough, when it isn't. I have had numerous"duff" new NGK plugs and I take nothing for granted these days.

Why bother asking questions here, then not listen to people's goodadvise?

However, if you have now done this simple test... well done.

I swear by NGK plugs and swear at Champions BUT there have been fake NGKs appearing on eBay apparently which may explain why some people are having problems with NGK plugs. However, a good spark in fresh air does not always translate to a good spark in an engine. I have been driven to distraction by an apparently healthy and sparking magneto which fails to ignite an engine. I would recommend a very careful check of the ignition side in any case. One last point. If an engine has been out of service for a long while, once it has started and run for a while, subsequent starting is usually a simple matter. One more point again. The last time I had similar problems I changed the plug, HT lead, magneto, overhauled the head and in the end it turned out to be the carb float failing to grip the needle (276 carb). You can imagine what fun I had finding that out.

When i used to service cars i bought Champion plugs by the box, I often threw away one in ten,they would work poorly for a few thousand miles then pack up.

I didn't know you could still get Champion plugs, my local bikeshop only stock NGK, I think they've cornered the market now. But like I'vesaid, they are prone to failures too. I heard my Manx start on an electricroller when I bought it, although popping and banging I could tell the enginewas mechanically sound. Once it was home and in my impatience to hear it runagain we bumped it without a pop from the engine. I then checked througheverything. The new NGK plug sometimes had a faint yellow spark so I changed itfor one in the workshop and instantly it had a bright blue spark. Problemsolved.

Unfortunately this isn't a one off. To be honest I ride my Dommieand apart from checking the oil, I do nothing to it. Feeling a bit guilty aboutthis I thought I'd better give it a service. Everything was fine but I put innew NGK's anyway. The bike fired 1st kick, but on one cylinder. I checked thenew plug and there was no spark, put in the old plug and away it went. The shopcan't believe it as they say they never have a failure. I also had the samething with my Harley, but on that occasion I took the carb off and cleaned itand even put in a fuel filter, only to end up back at the plugs and one duffone. It doesn't surprise me when a new plug is duff now.

With Mark's bike the engine has run so it just needs everythingset up properly. If the timing is correct and there's a spark at the plug, itonly leaves fuel starvation. As the bike has been stood, petrol evaporatesleaving sediment in the float bowl and jets, or even sludge from the tank. Butfirstly, check the fuel flow directly from the tank by taking the pipe off. Iknow this sounds obvious but I've learnt from experience that fuel at the carbdoesn't mean there's a good flow from the tank and the bike wont start. I havefitted new taps and the rubber has swelled up only allowing a dribble from thetank. Again I have had this on more than once so it is something I check forand easily fixed with a small drill bit turned by hand and it can save you lotsof work trying to find a problem.

Ian's advice on plenty of fuel is the way to go. On stubborn bikesI squirt a drop of petrol through the plug hole and kick it. Even if the carbjets are blocked you'll get a pop and splutter and dare I say it, there'salways Easy start which will definitely fire. If all this is correct and itstill wont start, it could be down to starting technique.

I know it's frustrating when you just want to get the bike runningbut you cannot assume something is ok. They are simple checks that take secondsto do.

Hi Ian, I've just remembered, you sent me pictures of your Inter when you were considering selling it. A lovely bike. I particularly loved the old pictures you had of it and previous owners racing it etc. It got stripped down to the bare bones at one time in it's life and fantastic to have this history with it

Mark, I like Dave assume your comments are aimed at myself, as Dave says, I was just trying to help. His comments speak for themselves. Bear in mind what the plug does in atmosphere is not necessarily replicated under compression. If you are a member of the VMCC there is a very good artical on this very subject this months issue 623 from Mik Peirce on page 33 et seq, I recommend you read it, he is from NGK, he knows his stuff. If you don't believe me or him or accept what I say then as advised talk to Barry Sticklandand I did read what you said otherwise I would not have offered my advice, and if you don't want advice then don't bother to post.

I await your apology but if you don't want don't bother.

Dave, yes the Inter is quite a gem, I am reluctant to let it go and would only do so to someone who I was confident would preserve our history. It would break my heart to think it would get broken for spares like some parasites do.

Have a good festive season and a prosperous New Year everyone.

Ian

Previously wrote:

Hello All

Apologies for the delay in reply, I have been down with the dreaded flu. Sorry, I did not mean to offend anyone (sorry Ian) - it is the last thing I want to do. Yes I did try resting the plug on the head and it produced a good spark. It was the first thing I did when I got the bike home.

I have managed to start the bike, flooding it does seem to help - along with kicking the bike over on the decompressor with the throttle wide open for 4-5 kicks first. I have wound out the pilot screw 2.5 turns and fuel drips out of the pilot drilling at quite a rate. Once running, the engine does sound very sweet so at least I am satisfied enough to get on with some other jobs. I am thinking of investing in a concentric for regular use though. Does anyone have any experience of setting one of these up?

A Happy and Prosperous New Year to you all

Mark

Apologies accepted. Glad you got her fired up. It is an art, ease over compression then a hefty long kick and try just a bit of throttle and a tad of advance not too much of either though. Yes plenty of gas they love it. No idea about concentrics suitability. Again speak to Barry Stickland he may be able to advise.

Hope the flues gone.

Hi Mark,It sounds like your fuel level is a tad high . Hi Gordon,I am also a Rudge Nut with history of Bronze head 35 Ulster and 4v 250. I have also ridden a full house DBD34 ,wonderfull but bonkers at 7000 rpm in 2nd down Sydenham road. I still challenge myself with Vintage Club rides down muddy lanes on a race tuned Ducati Mach 1 rep ,high gears ,big carb,mad cam and clip ons. Stirs the blood.

Hi Robert, no progress with the TT Rep so far this winter but the '32 350 radial is up and running and once I sort the electrics will be out and about. From time to time I ride the Beamish trial on my Altas-engined 99, straight bars and road tyres in amongst the pre '65 trials bikes. A hoot!

It makes no sense to ride these unsuitable relics ,so why do we?, lots of different reasons ,but for me every ride on a mean awkward machine is memorable and i just love the shocked look on the cagers faces when the blast of 750 cc's of barely silenced Atlas gets their attention away from the cell phone.