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.... plus c'est la même chose.

It's been a while since I reported on progress(?) with my Electra starting. So an update. I posted recently that the remodelled pawls, pins etc were working well and that remains the case. However, starting has still been iffy and unreliable to the extent that I'm reluctant to take the bike out although am on good terms with Britannia recovery due to other bikes. The Electra has not yet suffered the indignity of being shoved into a van.

I decided that I would follow Sherlock Holmes's dictum "when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth". I have verified that I'm getting a good spark so am setting potential Boyer problems to one side. I have checked the timing carefully with a strobe - when it was running - and that's pretty much spot-on. So what else to check? I thought of compression and bought a cheap (£8.99) compression tester from ebay which to my surprise is a very nice bit of kit. Using this on both cylinders and turning over with the starter motor gave values in the region of 130 psi in both cylinders which I think is about right.

I've also bought a set of Brisk plugs which are recommended by all sorts of people but seem to make no difference.

Carburation? The monobloc fitted has the correct spec and as far as I can see is clean inside. But I decided to splash out £112 on a Wassell Evolution which is a copy of the Amal Premier concentric. It seems to be very nicely made and fitted with only a minor change to the throttle cable. Unfortunately this did require the two side panels to be slightly modified to account for the greater depth but that looks fine. I also discarded the petrol from the tank and refilled with E5 just in case.

OK, now to try it. I pressed the starter button and was rewarded with the starter turning very slowly and a fizzing noise from within the motor. I hadn't had any reason to get inside it but of course now had to. Off with the primary cover yet again, whipped the motor off and had a look inside. There are two power leads leading to brushes and another 2 earth leads again with brushes. It was clear that the insulating sleeve on one of the live brushes was damaged and the inner sleeve on the end cover that was intended to provide backup insulation had at some time been replaced by tape which had ruckled up allowing the damaged lead contact with the casing. I cleaned everything up - to be fair, brushes and commutator were in excellent condition - wrapped some insulating tape round the damaged insulation sleeve and made a new insulating sleeve out of a soft drink bottle and stuck it in with silicone. Bench testing on reassembly gave a good spin.

Flushed with success I refitted it, flooded the shiny new carb and attempted a start. It spun over much faster than before - I suspect that there had been a partial short on that brush lead - and eventually started and ran very nicely, and more smoothly than with the Monobloc. But would it start again after a few minutes?  Would it b*****y.

So I'm now pretty much back at square one after a tortuous trip through most of the other 64. My last faint hope is that there's a problem with the Boyer box so I may try the old Mk 3 one that came with the bike.

Sorry to ramble on but I do have a vain hope that there's something - probably right under my nose - that I've overlooked and would be very grateful for any suggestions.

On the positive side I'm now very familiar with the starter and all its components and could build it in my sleep.
 

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Hello Ian, 

Are you running with original style of pawl pivot pins? 

Original design was a plain pin with a round, quite narrow head. The starter sprocket is shallow counterbored to accept these thin heads

If you are sure that the three heads are fully home in the starter sprocket, then check if the heads are proud of the sprocket side surface. 

If they are proud, grind them flush and smooth with the sprocket surface. 

This stops the projecting pawl pin heads rubbing the wave spring. It increases the chance of the wave spring being held back by the friction washer, and correct engagement of pawl. 

This is complete gibberish to all but Electra owners, so apologies. 

Do you understand Ian? 

Peter 

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I understand the point you make. All is fine with the actual drive system which is now working perfectly. The hardened dowel pins I've used for the pivots - being reluctant to pay £45+ for the NOC items - are flush both ends and are a fairly tight fit in the holes. There isn't, as far as I can see, any longitudinal load on them so nothing top make them come out. The force required to fit them was similar to that fitting the 4mm pins in the pawls.

The current problem is not with the mechanics of the starter but in running.

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The short colourtune will tell you if the plug is firing under compression also if it does fire without ignition happening will indicate a lack of fuel at these times, solved my non starting issue which necessitated me having to purchase a new carburettor.

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I did have a colortune but gave it away years ago as I never found a use for it! I am however starting to form yet another theory - to wit that there's always been a partial short in the starter motor resulting in a very heavy drain from the battery, hence my attempts to provide a good supply to the Boyer unit. I have 2 plans of attack for tomorrow when hopefully it will be cooler:

1. Provide a direct feed to the white Boyer wire from my auxiliary battery without the relays etc which are currently controlling it and which of course introduce extra points of potential failure.

2. If this works, reverting to a Boyer feed from the main battery.

If neither of these is successful, trying plan 1 but with the original Mk3 Boyer ignition unit (after testing that I get a spark when switching off).

When the engine did start it was running well for a couple of minutes till it just stopped as if the ignition had been switched off, leading me to suspect the ignition circuit. But who knows?
 

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Really sorry you are still battling with starting issues Ian.   Having read through all the above I think you may well find all that short circuiting, churning over on the starter may well have dropped your battery voltage is so low that the starter will spin the engine but the voltage drop is below the limit of your Boyer system.   I would start by fully charging your battery and then prove the carb and ignition by starting it on the kick start.   If it starts then shut it down and see if it starts on the starter.   If your Boyer systems are faulty I can strongly recommend the Paxon system which you can purchase from the NOC parts scheme.   I have been using it on my Navigator and Electra for over 5 years and they are proving totally reliable and reasonably tolerant of a less than fully charged battery.  I know Al Osborn doesn't like my solution to finding a powerful enough battery but the only reliable answer to sufficient battery power I have found is to use two 12v Motobatt MB5U 7Ah 90 A CCA AGM batteries in parallel.   They fit in the original battery carriers and are easy to wire in.   Ever since I have fitted them my Electra starts every time on the button.   Good luck and keep working at it - I am sure you are close to the solution!

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PS........those Motobatt batteries aren't that expensive, Tanya batteries have them in stock for £32.56 and do a very efficient delivery service.   
cheers Nick  

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... it helps! I take your point re battery capacity. In fact before I discovered the partial short in the motor the battery was starting to lose its oomph after a few starting attempts. Once that was rectified not only does the starter spin the engine faster, the battery also seems to provide plenty of power much longer. So I'm starting to think that there's been a partial short in the motor all along. If the motor is taking a lot more power from the batter via this short then of course what's available to the Boyer wil be reduced. But my auxiliary battery layout (see diagram below) should in theory (mine!) eliminate that as the Boyer is independently powered. But as I say that has introduced several new potential weak points hence my plan 1 above.

The current battery is indeed from Tayna who always deliver the next day even when ordered on a Sunday.  It's YB9-B AGM Powerline  Battery 12V 9Ah.

At least the constant search for problems and solutions keeps my mind active.......

wiring

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I like your constant voltage  arrangement and  seems you have explored potential causes.  
Have you measured the voltage at the BB when you are cranking ?  It's possible the ignition switch/ associated wiring may be the cause. 

Maybe you changed it already. Or put the assist voltage directly to the BB?
keeep going :-)

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... but just for the day! I am more than ever convinced that the root cause of all (well most of) my troubles was the partial short to earth on the starter brush lead. My current - see what I did there - hypothesis is that the short drained so much current from the battery that it depressed the voltage below what was needed for the Boyer. I suspect that this fault has progressively got worse.

In fact, I'd decided the battery was dying as it was starting to look weak after only a few attempts at starting. The always reliable Tayna provided a replacement but I now think that wasn't necessary.

The good news is that my refaced pawls and dowel pins are working well and when I had a look at them after a number of attempted starts the pawls showed no marking. Now if only I could get the primary chaincase oil tight again.

I'll have another look at the electrical setup tomorrow after leaving it on charge overnight.

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Adding further to Ian's  confusion. I have hardly ever had a problem with the kick start on my Electra, it could even when warmish start by being 'hand turned.' My electric start seems to work well when cold and even first fire up after the winter, the starter seems to 'pull its' weight. But I do have a problem with the sprag when engine is hot, it will not engage maybe a new wavy washer is needed.
But to continue with the confusion for Ian, I am running on an antique monoblock with MKIII Boyer Bransden ignition. So I have now followed up Ian's compression test. My engine is allegedly standard 7.5::1 CR and it is a very tired motor the ring gap (when last measured) was already on the limit so judging by the oil consumption the ring gap will be well past it. My compression test came up with 100PSI both sides.

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I know this isn't helpful, but it sounds like they put a complicated, temperamental, electric start on a bike that was easy to start.

The 650 and 750 twins are actually difficult for some people to kickstart.

"I do not agre. My Atlas powerd 99 starts first cick. I am 78.

Eirik,"

Sounds like you're one of the other people, for whom the 750 is not difficult to start!

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again..... I have to confess I haven't managed to kickstart the Electra at all although I haven't tried it in earnest. It could be my technique although up till recently I had an ES2 with 8.5:1 compression which I could start very easily, and had Commandos for 30 years or so and never had a problem. However I am aware that at a couple of years shy of Eirik's age I'm neither as stron nor as well balanced as I once was. Although I'm not sure well balanced is a description some would apply to me.

Anyway, a fine morning so will pop out for a wander on the B'Zuki then return to the Electra later.

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With a Boyer Mk 3 or Mk 4, I think you have to kick it through two TDCs, with one kick, because the first signal from the trigger doesn't cause a spark; it just switches the black box on.

On my 650 twin of another popular marque, I find compression, then allow the kickstart back to the top of its stroke and give it a "long swinging kick."

That forces it through two compressions and it usually starts.  If it's cold and doesn't start, I probably didn't tickle the carburettor enough.  If it's not dead cold and doesn't start, I may have tickled it too much.

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... and may well be why my kickstarting hasn't been a success. Unfortunately due to knee / hip replacements as well as general decrepitude - my principal reason for getting the Electra -  I need to set the kickstarter lower on its serrations that it perhaps should be, so achieving the two TDCs may be difficult.

Onwards and upwards!

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Many years ago I had trouble with Ford push rod engines starting the cause was the starter robbing the coil this only affected the short stroke engines introduced in the early 60s the earlier long stroke engines didnt have this problem  the solution was to fit a ballast resistor Best to ask Al Osborn what he thinks as modern electrics may already have this 
 

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... and why I rigged the auxiliary battery as shown above so the BB unit gets a full 12.7 or so volts. As a matter of interest, I've checked the main battery voltage when cranking. Even after several attempts, which previously would have seen it struggling, I'm getting almost 11 volts (previously 10.4 or so) which tends to reinforce my theory that there has always been a partial short from one of the brush leads in the motor, thus increasing massively the current drawn from the battery. Plus of course turning the engine slower than it should.

If I'd thought of this earlier I may have saved myself a lot of false starts (pun intended).

I now have it in a state where it will start and run most of the time although I haven't looked at the carb settings yet.

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Well, I now seem to have achieved Electra nirvana (or close) in that I'm getting a reliable start, decent pickup and what's more restarting after leaving for a few minutes. Although I have yet to road test it....

My conclusion is that my original feeling that the BB box wasn't getting enough voltage / current was correct but that I misdiagnosed (several times) the reason. I'm now firmly of the opinion that it was down to the partial and later complete short of the live brush lead to the starter motor end cover. In fact, if it hadn't made complete contact I may still be scratching my head because as far as I was concerned there was no need to look inside the starter motor itself. The good news was that the commutator and brushes showed no signs of wear.

The brush lead has a woven sleeve which had frayed away on one side for about an inch next to the brush, exposing the braided copper core. The end cover should have a fibre sleeve inside it to act as a secondary insulation. This sleeve had been replaced in my motor by what looks like vinyl insulating tape. This had rucked up at one point next to the brush allowing progressive contact to earth. So a large proportion of the power from the battery was doing nothing more than warming up the starter. It was also turning the engine much more slowly than it should (and does now). I applied PVC insulating tape round the brush lead and made an insulating ring out of a soft drink bottle held in place with silicone RTV.

I will keep - at least for the time being - my auxiliary battery arrangement as well as the Wassell evolution carb - the latter as the monobloc the bike came with was well worn. I also haven't really wasted my time, or indeed much money, by getting the starter pawls resurfaced and fitting new pawl pivot and engagement pins, starter ratchet, sprocket and wavy washer as these were relatively cheap items. I do wonder whether the reduced speed of the starter and hence crankshaft contributed to the failure of the pins.

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.... after a day or so rest. Not road tested yet but have every confidence now I seem to have found the root cause of the problem. I'll keep the wassell carb as the monobloc was well worn. The concentric will also allow the bike to tick over when on the prop stand which I've always found a bit problematic with monoblocs as the mixture weakens when they're leant over to the left.

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... popped into the garage this morning and it started on the button. Third day on the trot, starting from cold (well as cold as it gets these days). Full air slide down, no tickling. I stopped it after a couple of minutes and retried it and again started immediately. Is that a light at the end of the tunnel?

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Well done Ian, that is fantastic news and just proves that with a strong battery and properly maintained an Electra can be made to reliably start in any temperature!   I find myself doing exactly what you have just done if I haven't used my Electra for a week - as much to enjoy proving to myself that it will start first press of the button as much as to warm the engine through, circulate the oil and keep the battery charged.   It usually encourages me to take it out for a run to enjoy it  which is what it's for!   I hope you can now start to do just that!   Post us a picture of the bike for us to enjoy when you have time.

Best wishes and safe riding!  Nick 

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... I would probably never have worked it out if the lead hadn't gone to a dead short. The engine turns over much more briskly now - hardly surprising as it isn't losing half its watts heating up the casing - and the previous slow speed can't have helped anything although not knowing what it should be didn't offer me any clues.

Hopefully will be popping out tomorrow for 20 miles or so and will take a couple of snaps. But I'll probably wait till I get home rather than risk a no-restart en route!

 



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