An odd chassis number

Hi William. I’m no expert on the frame numbering (or anything else Norton-related) so this is just a random idea. -  Where is that WTS-2 stamping? My slimline frame has several ‘odd’ looking stampings which I’m told are quality control/ inspector’s marks. Maybe what  you’re seeing is one of those stamps.

Regards

Tony

WTS might be a PO's initials.

Back in the good old days, if you wrecked your bike and bought a new frame from the factory, it would not have a number on it, and you were supposed to get a Bobby to come and witness you stamping it on.

What number you used was a grey area, some places would let you use the orginal,  but only after you had completely destroyed the old frame, other places you had to make one up, Some factories, such as Velocette, would straighten damaged frames, then sell them as spares,which means there are some duplicated numbers, which only showed up when the OCs started compiling registers.

Definitely  do NOT tell the DVLA about a non standard frame number IMHO, the result would be a nightmare.

I think it had to be a number or an alpha-numeric by law, perhaps it was the second bike that William Stanley Turner built. 

People allegedly pay for "patina" (= neglect, but it's then called "history"). You have a bit of history plus a V5C. Don't whatever you do poke the hornet's nest in Swansea. You might end up with a Q plate and a tax bill every year.

If its WTS-2 then they have accepted; stay with it. The frame number is a little mystery for you to solve.   The first digit will be the model code so you are working on a small field relevant to F/beds; 13,18,122 spring to mind.

  Viewing the  stamped numbers does not need coating removal.  I start with chalk dust or  wax crayon.  You can end up with light spectrometers or magnetic field analysers... all very good  if you know someone who has access to one...

 But its an interest not a must the validated WTS-2 is far more interesting than a regular number  and may lead you on a very interesting  journey.

Jon

Someone put it there, someone read it and accepted it as a valid identity.  There may be correspondence with DVLA? Where has this machine come from? Did PO shed any light on it?

You know the engine and frame numbers should match for this period?  Do the remnants reflect that? If it doesn’t then whatever ID it has it’s not the original.    

The ID could reflect the builder, the rider, the tuner. Suffix 2 suggests there is a WTS-1? Any owners?

I will keep your ID in mind; something may click somewhere.

Cheers

Jon

I have a Slimline frame purchased from the club many moons ago, sans log book/V5.

It clearly bears an Atlas frame number in the correct location and style: curiously, the same gusset has been stamped with what in all the world looks like an old London telephone number!

It reads 012281041. If it was indeed so, 228 was the old Battersea exchange. I have no idea how it comes to bear this number, or to whom this "phone number" might have belonged.

0207 228 1041 is a "live" number, curiously not too dissimilar from the good folk at Russell Motors! (0207 228 1714)

A secure anti theft device possibly???

A minefield of an area... My bikes have their registration numbers stamped an all major castings as a security deterrent. I presume the telephone number stamping was the same idea.

Bicycles are recommended to have your house number and postcode stamped on them.

As for frame numbers, DVLA didn't accept the frame number on my son's 88 and issued some enormous number to be attached to a chassis plate and fixed to the bike. By contrast, my wife's 1905 Vince Ely frame number is FCV 1. Her grandad, Frank Charles Vince built it. DVLA are happy with that and it's in the log book. 

Ian, that's an intriguing notion, and well before datatag etc. Sadly without the old log book or original reg, it would be a huge job to try and track down past owners in the Battersea area.

I bought the frame from the club back in 1992, with what was described as "slight damage", only to find the frame was distorted to the extent the engine/gearbox assembly in the plates wouldn't fit, so it languished in the back of the garage as other things took precedence. I've since taken it to some well-known Norton names, none of whom said they could get it all back as was. It's currently with a former racer who I was put in contact with by another NOCcer, and who reckons he can do something with it for me. I'm still waiting, but what's a few more months!

My veteran only has the registration number plate and engine number. No frame number. Since it is a clip on, the engine can presumably be used on any frame.

Michael. 122 indicates a model 88; 81041 is in the 1959 sequence of numbers. Maybe at some point the Atlas frame was fitted with a 1959 500 engine, the builder of which wanting to add the engine number to the frame? Perhaps he was building a Domiracer replica, subsequently damaged in a big 'off', writing off the frame? Who knows? I doubt it is a London telephone number, though....

Ian, thanks for your suggestion. I do think the phone number hypothesis is feasible, London gained 01 code + 7 local numbers in 1959, and this continued up to 1990, when London was split into 071 & 081 codes, due to the huge rise in phone numbers needed by then.My Atlas # dates to around mid/late 64, going by Bacon's book, and I got the frame in 92 as I said. So the timelines match, but its all guesswork.

As to the frame, it has had the rake increased. I thought initially this was a result of cropping the frame for sidecar racing, however Dave Degens was positive all the headstock and other welds were original. In his words, it looked like somebody had stuck a scaffold pole through the headstock, then yanked the bottom out. As to why this might have been done, he was equally clueless.

Explains why my Venom has a lower frame number than it's first one. One less mystery to solve.

Anybody knows if Norton delivered spare crankcases without engine numbers?

They must have sent some out with no numbers as I have a set of dynamo domi cases with no numbers. Not ground off. 

In case anybody is interested they are available.

Paul