Tracing history

Apparently, the Factory Engine Assembly Records for race engines and special orders still exist for the period August 1934 to November 1939. It might be worth contacting the NOC Librarian just in case he has a copy.

I have quite a few pre-war records for the Manx and 350 Models. Most of them give the details of each machine as built (including extras), the dealer the bike went to and quite often the first owner. Could you give me a few more details about your bike so that I can narrow down the search. So far I have a list with 4 official Norton competition machines for 1936 plus around 30 bikes built for privateers.

Hi Andy...........I probably have the same data that Chris supplied you. The Engine Assembly Books contain all the detail of work done on each special engine. I have been trying to track down the EAB for the first 650 engines for quite a while. Alongside them would be job cards and material requisition chits. I do not have any of these either.

Within my own records so far I have...............

Engine No 63077

Frame No 57859

Model 30M

Date of Manufacture 23/11/1935

GearBox No 4696

Fork No 18654

Special Extras....... MTTN, Mx/S BTH (Magneto?), Spl EP (exhaust pipe?), Muffler...You will have to work out what the letters MTTN mean. Possibly something to do with the tank.

Sent to Laytons (Oxford Dealer)

The date of manufacture is interesting. Perhaps they held it for a while for extra work to be completed. Many other engines close to your number were not released until April 1936. Some of these record Dealer plus up to 3 subsequent owners. I will keep looking.

Previously andy_marks wrote:

Following a conversation with a friend of mine todayI am wondering if it is feasible to try and trace some of the history of my 1936 International engine. The frame left the factory with optional extras of a 120mph speedo and a spare dynamo so was probably used on the road.

The engine (and associated chassis) however left the factory for Laytonâs of Oxford in January 1936 and the factory records I have state that it was âBuilt to Manx Spec and tuned.â The engine is very different from any other Inter I have seen from that period and people have told me that it is quite a rarity. It also has a symbol on it with three straight lines from the centre with circles stamped at each end, I have been told this either means it has been through the race shop, or returned to the factory for work at some point. Is this true and if so is there any documentation of this?

People who have looked at the engine have told me all sorts of wonderful things like it must be a GP bike and not an inter available to privateers at all. As nice as this would be, I am somewhat doubtful about the chances of that, but am however interested in where it went.

The first owner was not listed in the records so I have always assumed this is where the trail goes cold. But I am just wondering if there is any other way of tracing it?

Thanks

Andy

Andy All sounds interesting... The symbol three circles joined by three lines instar is not uncommon on all sorts of Nortons. As its not an individual mark I guess its some sort of identifier that is non inspection, maybecasting suplierrelated?Its an old open question for me...

You say Spare Dynomo,yet the build listgives BTH mag theefore noroom for adynamo.

What are these differences youregfer to andare the catingsAluminium or magalloy?

Jon (E/Number 73059)

Previously andy_marks wrote:

Hi Jon

Knowing the guy that told me about the symbol I am not at all suprised to hear it isn't as exciting as it first seemed.

The spare dynamo was an extra suplied with the frame. My engine and frame are not matching and left the factory as two seperate bikes. I suspect the frame was part of a standard road going Inter, hence the dynamo.

The engine is a bit later and came with the options listed above, this is the bit I am more interested in the history of.

My engine has alloy cases, they have no rib for the primary chain case, not oil tell tail and raised front engine lugs, I'm sure there was something else with the cases but it escapes me at the moment.

The cambox has central pressure fed lubrication to the cams, and contains manx cams. The barrel is alloy and the head has a bronze skull cast in alluminium. There are different flywheels, big end and conrod and it had a higher compression piston in it, but I have replaced this with lower compresion as I wanted to ride it on the road so didnt want it to highly strung. The cylinder head also has lugs for a head steady which I belive a lot of them didn't at the time.

I have to be honest, I stumbled across the basket case on eBay. I wasn't looking for a OHC bike, I wanted a model 18 or an ES2. I nearly didn't bid on it because it was so incomplete and needed so much work doing. For the same money I could have bought a running OHV Norton. It's only after I bought it I started learning about the cammys and its been a steep learning curve, one which I'm sure will never end so if anyone knows anything I have missed or thinks I am mistaken on anything, I am all ears.

Andy

Haha... the cammyalwaysgets ya. They area great ride, prefer the surefooted handling of the rigidbut theplunger is an interestingsetupto perfect. Thecasings and internals; arethey allnumbered alike? Hasthe oil pump beentapedfor extraction? Doyou have sumpdrainplugs bothsides on the vertical faces? Isit a"square" head ? Just some pointers toget theexpertsinterested.TT or RN Carb? got any pics?

Cheers for now

Jon

Andy........have you tried asking Mike Pemberton for any help with the history side of your engine?

If it were me, I'd be thinking of spending a day at the VMCC to go through the bound volumes of 'Motor Cycle' and 'Motor Cycling' for any trace of an editorial mention of Laytons and competition and indeed also the results pages. Particularly Graham Walker in 'Motor Cycling' had a habit of including as much sporting interest as possible.

I've always understood that the purchaser details in the factory records were added when the new purchaser returned his guarantee card (overseas sales almost never have details) or perhaps if a machine was returned for work. It occurs to me that if Laytons were acting as entrant, the machine might not have been sold 'new' and this may account for the lack of purchaser information.

If you haven't been to the VMCC yet, then there are still stones left unturned !

Previously andy_marks wrote:

Jon: I also like the rigid setup, I have a '51 plunger ES2 which is very comfortable but nowhere near as sharp. All the internals appeared to be origonal, the oil pump hadn't been tapped (but has been now, by me), only the one drain plug, it isn't a square head, but is bigger than the cast iron ones. It has a TT carb on it but don't know if that is origonal.

Phil: I hadn't thought to ask Mike Pemberton as I thought he was mainly a pushrod specialist? I have spoken to him on several ocasions about my ES2 but the Inter never came up...

Richard: A trip to the VMCC libraryis very much on the cards, but I haven't been there yet. I'll take your advice on where to start looking when I get there.

I have attached a picture of the bike taken the first time I wheeled it outside to start it, note the lack of a speedo cable (was still in the post) and the wooden number plate(again, the new one in the post so I painted a bit of hardboard with thenew numberto go out for a ride). I'll get some close up shots of the engine itself at the weekend if you are interested.

Thanks

Andy

Photos.... Yes pleaseAndy, If only tolearn. Parallel check springs... were they on it?