Removing panels from sides of tank - Model 50

Mike,

Not sure if you have a pre F/bed or Wideline but the issues are the same. The panels are held on via the two 1/4 BSF bolts that might have been replaced with screws that secure the knee pads and also the two 4BA screws that hold the round tank badges on. (this per panel) You can use a bit of double sided tape too but it's not necessary.

The tank rubbers are commonly available, RGM for example.

As for your tank, it most certainly will need cleaning. I put mine in a costic tank but Rust Busters do a good tank cleaner too. Just be careful with it.

If you insist on using fuel with solvent in it, ie ethanol as in 95 RON then you should use an Ethanol proof sealant as well as ethanol proof lacquer over your new paintwork as ethanol is a perfect paint stripper. Slosh, a one part sealant or Wyldes Flowliner a two part sealant and both excellent examples of ethanol proof tank liners.

Hope this helps.

I should have mentioned that the Supermarket super unleaded and Shell contain Ethanol. My son's girlfriend put Sainsbury's super unleaded in her little old H*n*a and later on the rubber petrol pipe was attacked while standing, losing all the fuel to the floor!

Because Parliament has allowed that 5% ethanol can be added without warning, (Although some brands do label EN228) nobody can make a claim.

My tanks are full with ESSO Supreme Synergy 97 but if you live in one of the Ethanol zones you have the choice of driving out of your district with containers or draining your tanks, pipes and carbs for the winter. EN228 has a shelf life of around 3 weeks and will deliver a lower MPG. Still it helps the government meet their renewable energy targets!

Sorry for another anti ethanol rant but not everyone is aware of the dangers. Not just old vehicle owners but think of those lawnmower and motor boat owners. Indian replica tank makers must be rubbing their hands together!

Hi Neil, you and I are on opposite sides of the ethanol argument. Your a good guy and all, but some of your info is flawed.

The downside to ethanol for me is that alcohol attracts moisture, so if your bike, or lawn mower sits several months at a time, you should put an additive in it to prevent excess moisture. Knowing that, its a super easy & cheap thing to do & frankly, all fuel goes stale over time, so many of us have been putting additives in our fuel in bikes, boats, lawn equipment for many years. Most issues are when you first start using ethanol, as it tends to clean years of gunk out of your fuel system & this gunk can clog fuel filters. There are some components that may be affected by the ethanol, but this typically takes years & frankly the very few parts in our old bikes that would be affected can be easily & cheaply upgraded, such as the new Amal Stay-up floats, etc.

Here is a great video on the subject:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PL23BBB8C675640611&v=bTVOLb9vO7w

Ethanol is a renewable, domestically produced alcohol fuel made from plant material, such as corn, sugar cane, or grasses. Using ethanol can reduce oil dependence and greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions. Ethanol fuel use in the U.S. has increased dramatically from about 1.7 billion gallons in 2001 to about 13.4 billion in 2014.

E10 and E15 are blends of ethanol and gasoline. The number after the "E" indicates the percentage of ethanol by volume.

Most of the gasoline sold in the U.S. contains up to 10% ethanolâthe amount varies by region. All automakers approve blends up to E10 in their gasoline vehicles.

As of 2011, EPA began allowing the use of E15 in model year 2001 and newer gasoline vehicles.Pumps dispensing E15 must be labeled . A vehicle's owner manual may indicate the maximum ethanol content recommended for it by the automaker.

Ethanol contains about one-third less energy than gasoline. So, vehicles will typically go 3% to 4% fewer miles per gallon on E10 and 4% to 5% fewer on E15 than on 100% gasoline.

E85, also calledflex fuel, is an ethanol-gasoline blend containing 51% to 83% ethanol, depending on geography and season. Summer blends tend to have more ethanol while winter blends have less.4 E85 can be used inFFVs, which are specially designed to run on gasoline, E85, or any mixture of the two. FFVs are offered by several automakers. We provide abrief guide to help you determine if your vehicle can run on flex fuel.

MPG. Due to ethanol's lower energy content, FFVs operating on E85 get roughly 15% to 27% fewer miles per gallon than when operating on regular gasoline, depending on the ethanol content. Regular gasoline typically contains about 10% ethanol.5

Cost. The cost of E85 relative to gasoline or E10 can vary due to location and fluctuations in energy markets. E85 is typically cheaper per gallon than gasoline but slightly more expensive per mile.

Performance. Drivers should notice no performance loss when using E85. In fact, some FFVs perform betterâhave more torque and horsepowerârunning on E85 than on regular gasoline.6,7,8

Availability. More than 2,800 filling stations in the U.S. sell E85. Visit theAlternative Fueling Station Locator for service station locations.

At the end of the day, its a good product with many advantages, but sadly there are many mis-informed things out on the internet, and repeated tall tales that start with " I heard about this guy" etc.

Some additional reading on the subject:

http://growthenergy.org/images/uploads/MythbustersRackCard4-10.pdf

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ethanol.shtml

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

Our generation is responsible for cleaning up this planet for the next generations, this is a small price to pay in my humble opinion. I use E10 & E15 in all my engines, from Nortons, to my Ford Hybrid, to all lawn equipment. Not a single issue & I have been using it for years.

Nothing personal Neil, just trying to put some facts down to discuss.

Hi Skip,

You are of course entitled to what you believe and only sorry we can't agree.

There is a debate coming up across the pond, so I'll make my points brief:

1) I first found out about about ethanol in 2006/2007 when it was introduced here by stealth. The Petseal in two slimline tanks dissolved into a goo and on one bike got into the combustion. On my Commando the main fuel hose had a dozen or more pin holes in it. Very dangerous! What a job getting that sealant out too.

2) Talking about cleaning up the world. (Wars excepted) Ethanol being hygroscopic has to be tankered to the distribution point, it can't be piped and then added to the petrol (gas) and sealed. As you say, ethanol gives a lower MPG so you need to fill up more often. We are talking about bulk here and the ethanol and bio diesel content is simply added to make up a government renewable energy target figure. (Windmills and solar panels etc)

3) This is all a part of the great global warming hoax, just follow the money. (Algore for example )How much did the US government give to the UN's Green Climate fund? The UK government has given £3 Billion since 2010. What are the UN doing with it? They say they have no money to feed refugees and there was barely a tree in Haite before Matthew struck, to slow down the wind. If Mrs Clinton were to get her way and close down your coal mines, you can expect a lot of US trees to be chopped down for fuel too, that is those not exported for biomass! I have studied Meteorology since I was at school and the satellite data available since 1979 says no statistically significant global warming. The Antarctic is at maximum ice extent, the polar bears are at record numbers and the Arctic refuses to be free of Summer ice. In fact just a couple of years ago the Great Lakes were not free of ice until June a couple of years ago and that's on your patch. None of the doom alarmist predictions have come to pass and Michael Mann's hockey stick was exposed as another hoax. 'Hide the decline' You tube.

In a nutshell this is political, supported by a few well paid establishment scientists and ethanol in our petrol is a price I'm not willing to pay. The subsidies and energy it costs to make ethanol alone make it not worth while, your farmers lobby would argue differently to the people of Maine or Oklahoma who demand E0, just like so many.

You are a good man Skip and I owe you one for securing me a Norton part not seen anywhere else to date. Please feel free to debate this one, I have lots more to say but it will have to be on the Off topic thread, if you want it.

Better leave it there before the moderator jumps on me and I miss the great debate!

Best Wishes...

Mike,

Your issue with sealant getting into the combustion mirrors the situation I had. Through legislation, 5% ethanol can be added with no warning on the pump, not everybody even marks this as EN228. (And I can tell you as of now that Sainsbury's won't be marking up, why, because they can!)

The difference between Skip's position and the UK is that there is plenty of choice (At least in my experience) in the US of A to use ethanol or not. However, there are parts of the UK, such as Scotland, Teesside area and the South West where it is about impossible to buy E0 fuel from the pumps.

If Skip demands ethanol in his fuel then as far as I am concerned he should have it but increasingly that choice is being taken away in Europe. There was a directive to mandate E10 across the whole of the EU by 2020. So called Green measures are being forced upon consumers, ever tried to buy a decent domestic light bulb in a supermarket for example? See Hillary Benn for taking away that Choice.

So it is about choice at the end of the day and for many that choice is taken away from them. Oh they could get in their car with some cans and drive out of their ethanol zones? How Green is that? About as Green as driving a bio ethanol tanker to the petrol (gas) distribution point!

PS: I hope the tank info was OK for you. Is it a wideline or earlier?

Neil

Slosh, a one part sealant or Wyldes Flowliner a two part sealant and both excellent examples of ethanol proof tank liners.

You need to look again at these products, they describe themselves as being resistant to ethanol not proof to ethanol in their sales literature. This is a deliberate fudge as it implies they can still fail after time, same as water resistant and water proof means different performance levels. So they may perform better than the old petseal (which was Crystic 491PA decanted into a smaller bottle) but they are not 100% reliable hence the lack of use of the word proof.

Yes John, you are correct but it is only right I mention products I actually have used. I have never tested them against ethanol either, since I go out of my way not to use that stuff BUT with politics as they are, and the Green influence, who knows when a quiet imposition might be made and so at least there is some protection.

Mike mentions the all in one (Inc anti ethanol stabiliser) Millers product. These (Other brands are available) are not a cure to ethanol damage, they simply slow down the attack. One elderly VMCC member got his E5 from Morrisons and told me that he just adds some Millers to his flat tank and didn't have any issues. A couple of years later he was distressed to come back from holiday to find his tank sealant soft and breaking up and also ethanol damage to another bikes fuel system. I took that call.

Who knows if another agent will be added to fuel by stealth and what the effects will be on sealants and components in general?After all, the establishment certainly didn't test against Petseal and the then existing fuel system components that had given perfectly adequate service prior to E5! They are only interested in meeting their renewable energy targets, not the welfare of your wallet or Norton!

Finally there is the time we can never get back in repairing unnecessary ethanol damage and the cost of new parts and sealants. Add to that the cost of anti ethanol agents. Yes Skip, it really is costing the Earth!

The Greens support buring biomass but reject burning methane. Biomass has a vastly higher carbon content yet they tell us lies by claiming it to be carbon neutral. I do believe there may be serious issues with climate change but we shall not be able to face them if we bankrupt ourselves on the altar of "something must be done". The Greens caused most of the problems by putting a stop to the UK nuclear power industry decades ago so we are now forced to buy all the technology from the French.

Within 3 years our London dictator has decreed that all old motorcycles (and cars) will have to pay a £10 fine to enter central London. It is political posturing that will have no effect as there are do few nowadays in any case. It's so easy to persecute minorities.

Maybe our modetator should move all this elsewhere...

David, I would understand the bulk of this thread being moved to off topic, even though it is all related to the petrol available to us and the reasons why we are in this state.

Today I learn that it will cost each family of four in Germany, 25,000 Euro's each by 2025 for their Green energy transition. It was sold by the German Green leader as only costing 'a scoop of ice cream per month.' Really! BTW, today, Germany's CO2 emissions are at the same level

There are many people, some of influence, who have been conditioned by the propaganda of Green politics to become carbon phobic. CO2 is a natural trace gas essential for life on Earth and nearly all of it is natural. It is a very weak GHG but a great vehicle for taxing fresh air. I'm in the process of booking a long flight and half the cost is TAX!

What happens to all these Green taxes? I know, they are used to build new runways to facilitate even more flights and that brings in even more tax!

As for Ethanol and the giant Green blob, is it all too big to fail? If you listen to Green alarmists they will direct their venom (Not the bike) at 'Big oil' (They have ended coal mining in the UK) I'm aiming my venom at 'Big Agriculture.' I'd rather them grow food for an overpopulated world than bio fuel to meet some hypothetical target!

Back to the thread! Would notone of the best sealants be to find the leaks and seal with old fashioned plumber's solder?

But not lead-free of course since that is so much less ductile (and also prone to growing tin whiskers) that it has already (probably) caused at least one plane crash and possibly two. That's another can of worms.

For fully steel tanks welding is best but it can be difficult to get to the area and the thinness of the steel can cause problems but TIG is an option that will reduce the risk of burning holes considerably, that just leaves the problem of ensuring it does not go boom. You are adding the same metal with the same strength which is important in structural area's and this does not stop further repairs.

I would go for brazing 2nd, it will fill holes plus pool and the heat is lower so no blowing holes, but once repaired then then further repairs in that area must be braze, it is stronger than solder but not as strong as steel.

I would go for soldering 3rd, weakest of the 3 and best for otherwise difficult to get to areas and like to be much more DIY friendly.

I had an Interpol tank repaaired this year with braze, the leak was a pinhole but under a plate only welded on 2 of 4 sides, so it was brazed on the remaining 2 sides and the brazed pooled so it ran under the plate and hopefully also got to the pin hole, but if it did not then at least the plate is now sealed on all 4 sides.

So all these have their uses, however epoxy resin is now consigned to be dog house, pity as it did have its uses.

John, both repairs to two tanks under restoration (A slimline and a 57 pre F/bed) had small holes that were brazed, my choice for less heat and greater flexibility. I believe this was successful but to be certain, both tanks were coated with Wylde's Flowliner, the new stuff, ethanol resistant.

The two slimline tanks that were Petsealed and attacked by ethanol had most of the sealant removed while it was soft, using a long implement. (It came out like fresh rolled pastry) There is still a little in the tanks I can't get to and re hardened since only using E0. The problem is that it is a gamble to chemically remove the Petseal or re line tanks when you already have a decent paint job. I mentioned cling film earlier but better to deal with tank issues before painting.

My Model 50 slimline tank was Petsealed twice. When I noticed it had gone soft (Tesco Momentum 99) I called Autocycle Engineering, where I bought it and it was suggested that I relined the tank. When this second coat went soft the proprietor was in a position to enlighten me of the problem as he did nothing but answer complaints, Wylde's were in the same position. Hence I had a Tesco carrier bag full of the stuff just from this one tank!

Greetings,

Regarding tank sealant, I had a problem with a Commando tank that had a pristine paint job. So went to inordinate lengths to cocoon the tank with multiple layers of PVC and duct tape, once the hole was plugged using POR's patch recommendations:

http://www.ppcco.com.au/fact_sheets/pi/pi_fueltankrepairkit.pdf

They quote"POR-15? Fuel Tank Sealer was formulated and developed in our own laboratories due to the demand for a high-tech sealer impervious to all fuels, including the new Stage II fuels which have a high alcohol content." (whatever these stage II fuels are?)

http://www.por15.com/POR-15-Motorcycle-Fuel-Tank-Strip-Repair-Kit_p_60.html

http://qr.absolutecoatings.com/QR-assets/downloads/POR15/POR-15_TD-FuelTankSealer.pdf

Followed instructions to the letter and tank is completely sorted, including hand painting around fuel tank filler neck before resin started to cure. Granite hard finish and no problems at all. Process is time consuming, fiddly but worth the result.

Rgds Steve

Regarding Neil's problem getting the tank clean: if ethanol is what destroys Petseal etc: does that mean that the 'easy' way to clean the tank ready for a new sealant is by using methylated spirits - which is mostly ethanol? The stuff Steve links to needs a very clean tank (not surprisingly).

(Vodka is perhaps a bit too expensive.)

Or are there actually some more exotic chemicals in the fuel companies' allegedly ethanol additives? It seems odd that the 'COSH' regulations only seem to apply to commercial firms buying chemicals but don't apply to domestic consumers (even those of us working in industry), so we cannot find out the chemical compositions of the fuels we are forced to buy. I don't like the 'super' fuel grades because they leave filthy brown deposits when spilled, whereas the normal stuff (in the UK) does not.

Again Greetings all,

If you purchase thh kit this includes a stripper to extract any offending / existing material.

http://www.por15.com/POR-15-Motorcycle-Fuel-Tank-Strip-Repair-Kit_p_60.html

Still highly regarded. Bite the bullet and sort out your tanks, debating does not fix the problem, this stuff does, because whichever side of the fence you are on the Guvmint (s) ain;t going to help you, neither are the fuel companies!

Good luck Norton people.

Rgds Steve

You are right Steve, we have to help ourselves because most of the motor clubs that could throw their weight behind this, at least giving us a clear choice are not.

COSHH legislation (Control of Substance Hazardous to Health) applies to one and all but it is the bulk and industrial user and supplier that face the big punishments from the HSE. (Health and Safety Executive)

The tanker driver should be able to show you the spec sheet from the delivery as should the sales kiosk (So Sainsbury's tell me)

I did have some success with apple and cider vinegar as a tank cleaner but not good enough for me and the tank went to the costic tank. (This strips everything)

My little used 16H has never had ethanol in its tank, the Petseal is still in perfect order, applied in 1997. At least I know there really is E0 petrol about.

Finally, AOL announced today that German vehicles will be all electric by 2030 and will apply that to all EU roads. Norway plan to go all electric vehicles by 2025. There might be some cheap Norton's coming up or perhaps museum extensions?