Commando frame numbers

Both of my Commando's have 'F' numbers stamped on the headstock.

F104***, Engine/plate # 311***-manufacture date 12/73 &

F108***, Engine/plate# 318***--unknown manufacture date, registered 10/74

so could tie up with the above. Interestingly one is registerd on the engine/plate# & one is registered on the F#, which I guess could cause the havoc Chris mentions.

I can also verify Chris' coments re the frame tube size, been there myself.

Regards, Tim

Previously roger_jordan wrote:

Previously tim_gostling wrote:

Both of my Commando's have 'F' numbers stamped on the headstock.

F104***, Engine/plate # 311***-manufacture date 12/73 &

F108***, Engine/plate# 318***--unknown manufacture date, registered 10/74

so could tie up with the above. Interestingly one is registerd on the engine/plate# & one is registered on the F#, which I guess could cause the havoc Chris mentions.

I can also verify Chris' coments re the frame tube size, been there myself.

Regards, Tim

Interesting, haven't found an 'F' number on mine. Plate on headstock and engine stamped #310***

Manufacture date 11/73

Regards

Roger

Most frames left the factory unstamped. The number on the red label is always the engine number (3xx xxx), and therefore differs on frames stamped with the F1xx xxx type number. These frame numbers were randomly allocated, i.e. whilst the engines are in chronological order in the Mk3 despatch records, the frame numbers are not.

Joe, do the records contain any substantiation of the idea that the Italian frames were the ones to bear a stamped 'F' number or was it simply put about years ago by 'Fairy Spires' and picked up by one or two authors ?

My Mk3 did have a number-stamped metric frame but that may be coincidence. Thanks to the driver of a Peugeot, it now has a more recent Andover frame and is all-imperial. It seems to steer straight too..

When looking to buy a Commando many years ago I came accross one 850 machine which if I recall correctly had matching 300 series numbers on the Headstock Vin Plate and Crankcase and a 100 series frame number on the V5. I decided not to buy it as a result.

I believe the Italian frame number saga is one of many sagas put out by various people outside the factory.

I have a Verlicchi brochure in which new Commando frames are stacked to the (Italian) ceiling in their factory. I doubt frame numbers had anything to do with where they were made, numbers normally related to date of build, not to point of manufacture of a component.

In Commando production times Italian manufacturers bought English components- say Lockheed brake components, Lucas switches and Smiths clocks on Ducatis- and English manufacturers bought components in Italy- frames, mudguards, rubber components etc. I doubt Renolds were equipped to manufacture frames on an industrial basis. Verlicchi were, and still make chassis for Ducati, Aprilia, BMW and others today.

Not ours, though- they are now made in England again. But then, we don't need thousands!

I doubt Renolds were equipped to manufacture frames on an industrial basis

Probably not Joe but Commando volumes were hardly 'Industrial'. If you read Ken Sprayson's book they were doing fine on meeting volumes. It was the price that was the issue, Verlicchi coming in several quid lower. Reynolds at £12.50 Verlicchi at £9.50 (Ken does quote £ s d though!) He states that Reynolds made a bigger profit from checking and straightening Italian frames than they did from manufacture.

My 850MK2a is one of these confusing bikes, the red plate has been stamped at the factory with the correct 310XXX number that matches the engine stamping, along side the red plate is a F100XXX number. The first registration used the F100XXX number so that is on the V5 but there is nothing to suggest this is nothing than confusion caused by the F100XXX number being stamped directly on the frame and so having more permanance than the easily replaced red plate. The F100XXX pre mk3 was supposed to be covered by the red plate but it seems a lot are not. As the dating cert from the NOC does not refer to the F100XXX number and with a build date of Nov 73 my application for free road tax is going to be a problem.

John, why do you say that the red plate was supposed to cover the 'F' number ? I've seen plenty visible on pre-Mk3s. They usually disappear under a repaint though.

The red plate is a US conformity declaration and I can't see that it was ever truly a frame number. I had an idea that there was a requirement in the UK from the early 1970s to adopt the use of a unique VIN number but that this scheme rather fell by the wayside when the European / worldwide 17 digit VIN system was adopted.

Prior to the 'F' number, there would have been nothing to distinguish a six digit Norton frame number from any other if entered into the Swansea stolen vehicle register which was coming into use at the time.

If you read Ken Sprayson's book they were doing fine on meeting volumes. It was the price that was the issue, Verlicchi coming in several quid lower. Reynolds at £12.50 Verlicchi at £9.50 (Ken does quote £ s d though!) He states that Reynolds made a bigger profit from checking and straightening Italian frames than they did from manufacture.

To cite an ex-Norton management team member when he was asked by a well-known journalist on his retirement do if he was prepared to be interviewed on his time with Norton that spanned several decades: He declined, saying: "I don't want to find myself being interviewed again and again and eventually to come up with xxxx like Ken Sprayson."

I am not surprised the Verlicchi frames were cheaper than the Reynolds ones- after all Verlicchi made and still make(!) nothing but frames for many manufacturers.

Neither am I surprised about the stories put out by Sprayson. If Verlicchi frames were so bad they all had to be rectified at cost- making them dearer than the Reynolds product through that, plus adding time and transport costs- why should Norton have stuck to Verlicchi? If I was production manager I'd fire that troublesome and costly supplier immediately.

Richard, the info on the red plate covering the F number came from Dave Catton when he supplied the Dating Cert, I had given him pics of the red plate, F number and the V5 showing the F number and he added that info in an email back to me.

Strange/unfamiliar frame numbers aren't the sole responsibility of Verlicchi ! - Until about 4 years ago I had two Commandos, a 1977 MK3 and a 1970 Roadster(MK1 ? - Identical tothe 'S' Type but with standard exhaust system..) To cut a long story short it was a re-import from the US (first registered in Cambridge then exported - US Airman maybe?) Anyway, after a light cosmetic restorationItook it to the tax office to get it a UK registration numberbutthey insisted on using both the original Norton frame number (141***) and the one it had been allocated in the US (NC*******etc...) which was stamped next to the red plate, so it ended up with a registered frame number of over20 digits ! - Itried to pointout that the dating letter from NOC proved that the number on the red plate was the one to go bybut they weren't having any of that so I ended up with a bike that appeared (on paper at least) to have a dodgy frame number !- It's of no real consequence now, as far asIknow the bike is no longer UK registered, I soldit to a German chap (via the internet) whointended to fully restore it and convert it to 'S' Type spec..- That bike is certainly 'well travelled' !.. (Herbert Ossterath if you're out there, where arethose pictures you promised me ?!!)