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Commandfo oil pump check

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I have just rebuilt my Commando which has had a full engine rebuild and an Alton electric starter fitted.  I have filled it up with oil (2.2l to start with) for the first time and kicked it over a few times and tried a short burst with the starter with the plugs out to circulate the oil.  I have a question, how do I know if the oil is circulating?  I have looked into the top of the oil tank and the breather is clearly working but as the return pipe outlets is below the level of the oil I am not sure if oil is circulating.  I expected to see the oil level fall as the oil filter filled up but it doesn't appear to have done so.  I would appreciate any guidance before I put the pugs in and potentially ruin a very expensive rebuild. I have followed the plumbing diagram I found in the Norton Restoration book by Norman White so pretty sure it is plumbed corrected but just being cautious.

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..Slackening one of the rocker feed banjo bolts and see if oil comes out?

For the return, place a drip tray under the bike and loosen the oil filter feed pipe and again, see if oil comes out on turning the engine over.

If OK, retighten and run it up.

The crank can take a while to fill though, so there can be some delay in returning oil.

Regards, 

George 

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Noticed in the above.......

'as the return pipe outlets is below the level of the oil'

This does not sound right to me.  Has the plumbing been correctly connected???

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Did you prime the engine oil feed pipe by cracking the joint at the junction block and waiting for oil to come out? The engine oil feed pipe on the junction block is the one on the right (nearest to you as your stood looking at the right side of the bike) As per Phills comment, how full is the oil tank? If there is so much oil in the tank that the return is covered, that is far too much oil or the return pipe in the tank is not correct/broken.

A photo of the inside of the neck of the oil tank will help clarify things there. The oil filter, if fitted, takes a minute or so to fill on start up, just kicking it over will take ages. Whizzing it over on the electric start is a waste as well. Confirm the tank is plumbed correctly, confirm the feed pipe is primed, You did fill the crank using a syringe through the rocker feed port didn't you? (procedure outlined in the manual) Once happy with all that, go for a start, when started, look for the oil return in the tank, as said it will take a minute or so with a dry filter.   

What model/year of a Commando is the bike?

Hi thanks for your comments but I am still confused.  I undid the nut on the oil pipes at the back of the crankcase and oil seeped out of the outer pipe so oil is going down from the tank.  I checked the plumbing and the outer pipe comes from the large banjo on the rear edge of the oil tank so this is the feed pipe to the engine.  The inner pipe goes to the oil filter and then back to the return pipe also on the rear edge of the tank but higher up.  That is how it is shown in the manual and in Norman Whites restoration book.  I have added 2l of oil against the recommended 2.4l.  I previously had an early fastback and the return pipe came out into the tank at the very top horizontally if I recall.  This bike is a 1973 Interstate and the return pipe comes to the top of the tank but instead of being open at the top it has two 2 or 3 mm holes one on each side of the pipe about 15mm below the top of the pipe which is sealed off.  These holes are visible and if I put the dipstick in on the oil cap it is just short of max.

I have been unable to find the bit about filling the crank with a syringe so no I haven't done that yet but also I haven't made an attempt to start the engine only gave it a few cranks on the kickstart and a quick burst with the starter with the plugs out just to check the starter works.  Can you point me to the bit about priming the crank either how to do it or where I can find it in the manual or in Norman's book?  Many thanks

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How did I miss that?  I read that section but somehow skipped over that bit.  I shall do that later today.  BTW is your oil tank the same as I described with just a couple of holes on the return pipe.  My return pipe comes in about half way up the tank then goes vertically to the top of the tank where it is flattened and welded to the top of the tank with just the two holes one on each side as outlets.  Seems like it is the original tank.  Thanks for you assistance much appreciated.

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I followed the instructions and with a spare banjo connector and the original banjo bolt I attached a pipe and syringe.  Oil will not go into the crankcase at all no matter how much pressure I put on the syringe.  If I crack open the bolt a bit then oil comes out around the banjo but as soon as I tighten it again nothing will go in.  Norman White rebuilt the engine for me and he told me that the engine is actually a late Mk3.  I knew that the engine had been replaced at some point in the dim and distant past so it has a Mk3 timing cover.  Does that make a difference.  When I first undid the banjo there was a dribble of oil came out of the timing cover but none back flowed out of the feed pipe up to the rockers but then the engine hasn't been run only kicked over a few times.  Anyone got any ideas please?

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If the engine is a late Mk3 why on earth was an alton starter fitted? With a Mk3 engine you are over half the way to fitting the full Mk3 set up for the electric start, and it would be considerably cheaper than fitting the Alton.  What exactly did Norman do? Was it only a Mk3 timing cover fitted? The Mk3 engine has a longer crankshaft (to accomodate the Mk3 starter system) Does the engine have a screwed plug in the timing side crankcase half in the 5 o'clock position? looking at the engine from the right. If it has, it is a Mk3 crankcase. The oil syringe trick won't work on the Mk3 timing case unless you fit the banjo bolt with an extension tube before you fit the timing cover (The extension tube holds the oil non return plunger open so oil can get to the crank) when you remove the extension tube/banjo bolt, the plunger returns and blocks the oil port. Your oil tank sounds like it is ok   What did you mean by 'as the return pipe outlets is below the level of the oil'    

Edit  Just realised that you might have a 750 mk3 engine and not an 850 electric start Mk3 from 1975 so ignore the starter comments above if so 

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reduce the oil level in the tank until you can see the oil return pipe with the holes in it showing. Then it is obvious when oil starts returning. ( on a Model 50 engine with canister oil filter, it took several minutes before oil showed on first start up... worrying but fine in the end.)

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Remove the oil filter cartridge.  If you end up with oil all over the floor, you'll know oil has already gone through the engine.

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Remember that the timing cover nearly fills with oil, then the filter needs to fill so your level will drop when you check straight after it has just stopped running. If you leave the bike for a while the oil runs from the timing case to the sump. What many owner do is fill the oil tank, run the bike then notice the oil level has dropped, or check it the next day and top it up, this leads to over filling of the oil tank.  

When you next start the bike the oil in the sump that drained from the timing side will return to the tank, the timing side being empty will take a little time to fill to its working level, it takes a while for this to happen. 

Yes it's a complicated one as it has a Mk3 timing cover so you cannot backfill it due to the non return valve.  The Alton starter fitted with no issues so it mat be a hybrid engine.  It was Norman White who said it was a Mk3 but it didn't have provision for a seater motor.  I spoke with Norman yesterday and he assures me that it was built with a graphine based build grease that will lubricate the engine fine until the oil pumps round.  This could take a minute or so to fill the sump with some oil to scavenge and fill the oil filter.  He also confirmed that the whole thing is correctly plumbed so I will start it up later and check that the oil is circulating ok.  Will then top up the oil so it has 2.4l in it.  Thanks for your help

 

 


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