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Spares & Remanufacturing. Personal Funding....

Just a niggling thought, but why is/has Anthony Curzon having to fund the Manxman silencer project, by himself? surely it should have been a project funded by the Club and Anthony should have been recompensed for time and outlay!  People tell me spares are  almost impossible for the Lightweight twins, then there is the  cylinder barrel saga for the Heavy twins, as time goes on people are passing away knowledge goes with them and little specialists firms are closing.

With Covid 19  surely now is a time for action. Other clubs have sorted a lot on the re-manufacturing front.

C'mon NOC Sort yourself out! Soon.

John

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Reading the posts from Anthony about the Manxman silencers and trials and tribulations he has had in getting them made is explanation in itself. The cost of manufacturing essentially what is a one off will always be very high. To expect the club (any club for that matter, say it was an unobtainable part for a Ducati) to fund manufacture for say 10 pairs and then to have 8 pairs sat on the shelf for years is not good use of club funds. Anthonys experience of the mudguard saga is enough to put anyone off commissioning a run of parts manufacture.

An article in the latest Old Bike Mart, albet about restoring japanese classic bikes, makes a good point.

If you want a 100% perfect restoration it is going to cost, the rarer the bike, more expensive this will be. Then will you want to actually use the bike once its finished !

If the demand is there for parts to be made I'm sure the club will look at the feasibility of getting stuff made. Then again, will the club want to step on the toes of the established suppliers of spares that most of us use? 

People might tell you spares for the Lightweights are almost impossible to find, but ask yourself the question how many of those people will actually buy 'Newly made spares' I bet very few! The club could very easily have a pile of stuff made that is sat on the shelf for years.

Heavy Twin barrels are available from at least one supplier, at a cost. Just how many owners are willing to pay for them is another question. 

Regards

Peter Shand

Chairman EYNoc

     

Hi Peter,

Let me declare an interest as a Lightweight owner.

I believe the club should commission rare spares for Norton m/c's

The club is not about seeking the best return on it's £100,000's. Or it would be into futures and shares. It is about supporting Norton owners and keeping their bikes running.

Not so useful is the fact that the club is sitting on this pot of money and doing nothing with it and getting negligible interest. And I mean NEGLIGIBLE.

We were in the position of watching a sizeable NOC stock of Lightweight kickstarters run out over 15 years, to zero, and then doing nothing about it for two years. 16mm spline kickstart with an unusually large offset? Unique and unobtainable. Supporting the Lightweights? Try owning a Lightweight without a working kickstart.

Did you know that virtually 50% of NOC spares sales are for Lightweights? Shows how little dealer support there is for these models. Thank goodness for NOC spares scheme.

Some years back, the NOC spares scheme made a batch, or batches, of unobtainable centre stands. Now stock is zero, has been for a while, and we have no information if more will ever be made again.

Never mind, I hear you say, the club have made side stands. Guess what, all sold out, have been for a while, and no information when they will be made available again.

How hard is it to place a repeat order?

In the normal course of events I would agree that it is imprudent to invest in spares that are slow moving. The NOC is unusual in that it does not mark down the value of spares stock as it ages annually. It marks the value upwards periodically to reflect their rarity and market value.

So, no negative effect to the club nett worth in investing in slow moving Norton unobtanium. Profit to be made on every sale.

The real problem I see is that the spares team are doing their best but are not paid employees. Inevitably, my priority, or yours, is not necessarily theirs. I'm sure they do their best but sometimes it can be very frustrating owning a Norton Lightweight you have to bump start and always lean against a wall.

BTW - after 2 years of zero kickstarts, RGM eventually stepped in and did a 16mm kickstart, getting us out of the poo.

The demand for the service is there. And as an owner/rider, when you need it, you need it.

I'm glad Anthony stepped up with an offer to members to join him in Manxman silencers. I'm disappointed the club didn't take a punt on a few sets for the spares scheme.

Peter Holland

 

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Evening Peter

RGM must have thought that they can market a Lightweight kickstart and get a reasonable return on said product (they are a business after all)

Question, If you had the opportunity to fit a centerstand or side stand that wasn't specifically made for your model bike but fitted perfectly and worked, would you use it? I'm asking this as in regard to the manxman silencer issue. I applaud Anthonys efforts in getting his silencers made but if it was my machine, i would have fitted the available silencers/exhausts for a 650 twin. Saved a ton of money in the process and would ignore the rivet counters at shows and the like. 

The subject of originality is quite an emotive one. The vast majority of 'original bikes' are nothing of the sort. Maybe they should be labelled as 'Looks quite well put together'   

Peter Shand    

       

Hi Peter,

If I could get a replacement stand that met the requirements of 'Form, fit and function' then I'd fit it. I hope this answers your question above.

I know that to some originality is very important, and they are prepared to pay lots and work hard to get it.

And others just want a ride.

If I understand you correctly, you find it hard to justify a large club commitment to satisfy the former. While I find it hard to accept there appears to be a lack of commitment for owners wanting a ride. (sometimes)

Sorry if I got on my high horse tonight.

Peter Holland

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There is another issue with  pattern spares. I'm not sure there is the needed expertise to make the spares to the required standard  or the facility to quality control the product.I am a member of other clubs and have had to return important parts that are often incorrect. Back in the day when there was a bike production line and a warranty ,suppliers were brought to heel  or their monthly account was not paid . That got their attention. And the issue got sorted. Not any more.

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I have restored motorcycles most of my adult life and it is definitely getting harder to get the parts to do a quality restoration even to the extent of pointing out to Andover that the 06-090/091 levers that they supply look nothing like the original levers fitted to '68 Commando. I believe we are but curators  of our machinery for future generations and for this reason I strive to get it as close as possible to what it would have looked like when it left the factory, I agree with John that where it is not commercially viable to reproduce unobtainable items then where possible it should be the job of the club spare scheme especially in this situation, the club only has to purchase one set and keep in stock and when sold replace it, Anthony is already getting one set so 2 or more shouldn't be a problem as somebody in this world will pay the price. I am aware locally of a Manxman sitting in pieces but currently as certain items are so difficult why would I or anybody else even consider purchasing it to restore. 

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Hi Peter Shand,  with respect, I cannot support your point of view, with regards to "A MOTORCYCLE CLUB" and it's functions"! The best use of Club funds, I ask you! Well,  isn't it to support the Owners of Norton Motorcycles and their machines as far as I was aware, that is written in the NOC's constitution, if it isn't then something is sadly amiss.

As far as I am aware, the NOC is not a Trust fund or speculative  investment  opportunity! Or have I got something wrong about the structure and function of a "Motorcycle Club", because if there is not going to be an attempt to support Owners in the acquisition of said  parts for vintage and classic machines, then what is the NOC's primary function?

 

So Peter can you explain what a good use of Club funds is? I f you made 10 parts or pairs of whatever, then at some point they will be sold.

Stepping on the toes of established supplies?   Are the NOC paid not too compete?Who supplies Norton stuff, a place in the Midlands selling, Hyper-priced parts of dubious qualily on Ebay, stripped off former owners machines, Andover Norton and RGM Cumbria, Peters in Holland and that is it. The Market hardly flooded is it! What % of spares went abroad as an Export drive situation 90%, why is someone not chasing this stuff up?

You do the research find a quality maker have some made and then try and price them at a reasonable cost to Owners.

As for Japanese Classics I have had "Jap" bikes since 1980 and have 3 Kawasaki's probably the firm with the least availability of spares from the big 4 and now have to go straight to Japan for parts, no "Dave Silver" equivalent for the BIg K enthusiast, I could probably write a more informed article than OBM could put together, about getting spare parts.

And no I refuse to pay Les Emery's prices so he can buy yet another steam locomotive. His pricing policy is responsible for many Norton owners woes.

As Robert points out stuff hes to be researched and carefully developed over a period of time to get a good product, but as time goes on this probably is getting more difficult! Perhaps the club should get a 3D scanner and scan parts through and get drawings done for them, not totally sure what can be done with today's technology.

In reality parts manufacturing should have been set up years ago and the Club not attempting to do this has played into the hands of some of the parts "Barons" that exist today, , so step on some toes and do something, for Club Members who fund your, the NOC existence.

Over the years a lot of discontent has surfaced in motorcycle clubs, when funds have been spent on meetings, wining and dining and hotels for an elite few and not on the core business or on members concerns. The so called "professionalisation" of amateur pursuits has introduced a "Corporate mindset" that has all but destroyed many former pleasurable activities,people need support, whether the NOC can provide it remains to be seen.

I am a "down-to earth" motorcyclists and for this post will probably be labelled an agitator, but I am sick of hearing "Bullshit" arguments, why things cannot be done. If the 2030 carbon neutral bullshit, hits and firms have to produce their impacts, to Local Councils, (Climate Nazis), there will be almost no manufacturing left, now is the time to act before things get worse for motorcycle enthusiasts.

I know things are difficult with Covid 19 and that, but, did a regional support branch get in touch when I joined and my address is known to the Club? The short answer is no. So apart from the Roadholder and Forum support from Members and the Clubs Spares scheme ,what more can be done? I would say lots.

Time ticking we pay taxes and then die, is this conversation going to be had yet again in three years time, with the same platitudes being rolled out?

 

Regards

John

 

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hello And I agree with John above conversation The attitude of most owners are the same Attitudes of the nineteen sixties were you buy a bike and run it  and it does not matter how   original it is just run and ride it,  to add to all this the cafe racers made from any parts you can lay your hands-on,  is not an original motorcycle  or classic by any means  and the Commando there were some 56, 000 of them made and parts are made worldwide and pretty  standard  parts that will fit other motorcycle-like late Triumphs  and some BSAs   So this leaves the early Bracebridge Made machines out in the cold As most Commando parts do not fit Bracebridge street, Early Norton,  And This club was supposed to support the Norton Brand from all years  and its Preservation and Historic back gound no matter how Rare these Norton are And AS for the Club and Branchs Supporting its members  In difficult times  Over the last years  I have seen the opposite to this   With No support from anywhere or anyone,   I seem too be Isolated and Ostsizeds for this Club  It time for the NOC to take a count of where they want to take this club To suport historical Norton Motorcycles Or go down th path its now taking were the club will evetually fall apart  And Anhtony Cuzon in the past as had lot of unsupportive comments made witch dosenot help any one to do any thing  He is this clubs rock And I wish I had the Captical behind me to suport him and this club  As for the Manxman Silencers and it down pipes there are some 56 owners and more thats not come to light as yet  will be wanting parts  that wear out like silncers and exhast pipes Now if this Club could do one honor of doing some advisting For Anthony and his Manxman Exhaust parts  then he may get some sales and recope his investment in these time we all need to take a closer look at each other as none of us are perfect and we all have our human faillings so please try to support each other instead of falling out with each other ,  I have been a member of this club for near 15 years and nothing much as moved or being done apart from runs and show  in far away places Now after Covid -19 we need to do things more locally and Enjoy our own country And try to get to gether and try make our own parts that are hard to find  it is down to the EC member to help and co-ordernate all this and give finnacual support of hard to find parts  the parts team are doing there part in disubuting  parts on a volentary basis  and doing a good job so far but parts are getting thin on the Noc shop  and  the Noc Colthing need a real up date is looking old and from the past not much as been up dated there as well  I have all ready new designs for Club logs with the Bracebridge street frame work  look   The best Roadholder in World And The Light of Experiance yours  Anna J 

 

 

Hello Again Peter

No need for an apology. My initial reply to John Hall's post was in response to his assertion that the club should have funded Anthony's silencer manufacture etc. How far down that road the club spares scheme should go is possibly a discussion for an AGM

Once again i take my hat off to Anthony for his efforts in progressing getting his silencers/exhausts made. But for someone to take umbrage (Not Anthony i might add) and complain about how the club should be doing more etc is not justified.

If you need a stand, i can make one for you. (and no, i'm not interested in doing a run of them as the work involved and projected return is dire)

Regards

Peter

   

Anna

Are you supporting Anthony in his silencer quest by ordering a pair? His request for Manxman owners to get in touch and have some made resulted in One person replying with a firm order. Not a very encouraging response.

Exactly how much 'support' do you want from the club, In regards to the manxman silencer issue?

What percentage of cost would be acceptable (in your eyes) for the club to stump up in getting them made 60, 70, 80, 90, 100%??? and for you to only pay a nominal fee?.

Out of your 56 manxman owners only two of them are wanting/ willing to pay for them. Not a very good outlook is it.

Maybe your 'support' should be labelled 'sponsored'       

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I agree with Peter even though I am no lover of lightweights, the huge cash reserves we are sitting on should be used to fund the more unobtainable and commercially uneconomic parts.  The sale of “consumables” of questionable quality is not what the club scheme should be about imho

Gino

In reply to by peter_shand

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Hello, Peter, these Manxman silencers and downpipes are just one part of a much bigger issue with hard to find parts  right from early Norton of the 1900s to the mid-1950s  on all models, not all Commando parts fit other Nortons  And we can not keep propping up earlier Norton with said parts and AS for Me buying a set of Silencer from Anthony yes I would If I needed a set But I have the Original set up  So no need  these are 60 years old and like the day they made   and Anthony parts are made from stainless steel and will last forever,   so there you have it,  but this does not give way too the Noc not to fund some hard to find parts    yours  Anna J

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Also one of the rotary enthusiasts made a big personal investment to get chain guard rubbers remanufactured.

Seeing as the club can't go open house on the remanufacture of any part suggested by any member to suit their own needs, couldn't each need be put forward to the EC on an individual basis after the member has done the ground work and research?

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I am half the world away what do you want me to do Peter sell one of my Nortons to fund a trip to the AGM in this covid19 age, I thought this was supposed to be an International Club yet you feel that Important discussions like this be left to a local get together that only a few can attend, the Club is about the use and preservation of Norton Motorcycles and [in my view] the retention of said for future generations.

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I'm not a huge stickler for originality but I do think a one-make motorcycle club should make every effort to produce and supply the unobtanium to keep bikes on the road. Some items are more essential than others - Manxman silencers are not essential to keep a bike running, lightweight stands and kickstarts are.

The NOC is not the only culprit. The VMCC used to supply drive belts for veterans. Not any more. Now there's an essential bit of unobtainium if ever there was.

Time for the Committee to have a think about what the club is for and what the club funds are for.   

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Well, I feel the reality is that as Norton owners, (if the Club cannot supply parts through the NOC spares scheme, we end up on Ebay buying mainly worn out parts trying to get them refurbished/repaired and bidding against one another, so effectively yet again paying a higher price!

Look at the Market, people who know very little about Norton's are buying them for Investment potential, I ask you? I have had motorcycles for  46 years and never been a day without one, albeit sometimes in bits. I have watched a pleasurable activity being hit from all sides, rules and regulations, Speed control mania, Insurance hikes, thefts, increases in shysters and scammers, fuel changes, emission, noise controls, you have to wear this and have that... it almost makes you want to give up, doesn't it!

Every time you get a different make or model it's a steep learning curve and increasingly an expensive one and to me this is where the NOC surely must try and make life a little easier for Norton owners and enthusisasts.

Knowlegable people who were in the business are retiring and dying and getting thinner on the ground plus non of the Companies I identified even give a "Discount" to Club members!

AGM's how many people can make it and what about our International friends and Worldwide Ownership, how do they feel, waiting for an AGM talking shop just delays things further, action is needed and not words and it's not use Tim Harrison pointing out to me how good things are in his Essex branch, I am in Kent, fat lot of use it is to me, at present.

We NEED support, we haven't got a Hitchcock's, like Royal Enfield enthusiasts have, it is not good enough to feel smug and say " I own a Norton" which perhaps a Vincent can only trump. When are Club's going to wake up and see we are at the "setting Sun" of the motorcycle experience, no youngsters in any substantial numbers are interested any more and when we die that will be it, so do we go out like a damp squib or make an effort to be involved in some thing vivifying!

 

This isn't a personal thing it is about an issue, that seems not to be, being fixed anytime soon.

John

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The NOC club as a whole are doing a good job. Great monthly magazine, website ,  events (current situation not withstanding) and a great camaraderie at rallies and the like. All for less than £20 a year. Plus a spares scheme as well.

What's not to like? Some people will moan about anything. If you feel that strongly about it then do something. Don't just be a moaning Minnie 

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Your right Peter, I want my cake, to eat it and a candle on the top!

You didn't directly, answer my question Peter, what is the Raison d'etre of the NOC?

No one is complaining I believe about the other issues you state, or the £20 fee...If you have a Commando you are better catered for, than any other model, but many people have older machines and that's is were there are problems and some will not have anything built other than at Bracebridge Street, Birmingham, for whatever reason.  I think that the Club should be the lead player, in the re-manufacturing arena, but if it isn't willing to do that maybe someone else will,

Not being able to get the parts you need, for your Norton machine, isn't fun.

 

Perhaps you could supply us with a breakdown of what members have in models and numbers of each to give a full of possible distribution of needs?

 

 

John

 

 

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I would like to make something clear, and I hope Anthony Curzon will back me up on this. The NOC DID offer to fund the manufacture of Manxman Silencers. Initially the offer was made on a number of occasions to AJD but never taken up. It was discussed with Anthony but he said he would prefer to handle the issue himself and once 'production' was possible, he would get back in touch.

I think (and this is just my opinion so sorry if I am wrong) that Anthony would rather do his things in his own way, to his own timescales without any pressure from the NOC for updates etc.

Yes, we do need to make more spares (I have a Navigator Delux) so have a vested interest in Lightweight spares. 

I would suggest that at the moment our main problem is manpower. I believe the spares team are just about flat out supplying things they have in stock and replenishing stock without endeavoring to manufacture 'new' spares. Finding more volunteers is always a problem. 

Note, Just 'placing and order' for something that has been made before is not always that easy, sometimes the manufacturer has closed, sometimes they just do not want to make any more.

Regards

Tony

 

In reply to by alan_rogers

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Alan, can you send emails from your part of the world? If you are able to you could email the EC/Directors with a proposal for discussion at a monthly meeting.

I can't find anywhere in my last post suggesting that you sell a Norton to attend an AGM

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Tony:

Bright Ideas:

How many engineers craftsmen own Norton's why not have a workshop somewhere, pay them expenses and a nominal fee, get some workshop machines, Lathe, milling machine, forge together and let enthusiastic people have a go at making some stuff, would that be money well spent, wouldn't it? Have skills swop workshops

Or circulate a request to all Norton Owners ask them what they have in spares, original tin wear loan it, for a short-period and make copies, for future reference.

 

Or get in touch with all Norton Owners, see what they have rotting in sheds, outside toilets, Barns, gardens  and under their beds and come to an agreed plan to swap or  purchase them, thereby increasing the Spare Scheme cache of stuff! I am sure that would make many wives, girlfriends partners or whatever happy!

 

Alen Millyard makes 6 cylinder Kawasaki in a shed in his back garden, is he the only man in the British Isles that can do anything?

 

Or...... do nothing? Known as the path of least resistance and the usual route taken.

Unfortunately, unlike previous generations of my ancestors I didn't take the Engineering route and I am now paying the price for it!

Remember....Edward De Bono?

 

 

John

 

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A  few years ago ,thinking about what I would do if my favorite Bike  blew up and wrecked my perfect +10 barrels  ,I contacted an old pal in bike engineering and persuaded him to instigate the manufacture of 600/650 barrels. There was an intention to use the same basic casting to make 500 cc barrels with extra machining,but I think that was a bit too problematical. I believe an order was processed . And I think there was some club involvement. Sadly the business folded but I think the project was taken over by Norville who are now marketing the  barrels .  A good effort,but very expensive.  But it does show that someone with very little Know how (me ! ) can get something started.

How many engineers craftsmen own Norton's why not have a workshop somewhere, pay them expenses and a nominal fee again, get some workshop machines, Lathe, milling machine, forge together and let enthusiastic people have a go at making some stuff, would that be money well spent, wouldn't it? No! 

At what cost? Rent for premises, machine tool cost, material, electricity, tooling etc etc. That is all the club funds gone. Added the Cost of liability insurance to cover all that and HSE stuff  (thats if you could get any)  

Alen Millyard makes 6 cylinder Kawasaki in a shed in his back garden, is he the only man in the British Isles that can do anything? No! there are many people that can do stuff   At least one of Alan Millyards creations is in the Barber collection in the states, he makes a living doing this stuff, either commissions or knows he can charge whatever he likes for them.    

Or circulate a request to all Norton Owners ask them what they have in spares, original tin wear loan it, for a short-period and make copies, for future reference. Possible

Or get in touch with all Norton Owners, see what they have rotting in sheds, outside toilets, Barns, gardens  and under their beds and come to an agreed plan to swap or  purchase them, thereby increasing the Spare Scheme cache of stuff! I am sure that would make many wives, girlfriends partners or whatever happy! Possible

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Whoopee!

But....... this is it Liability Insurance and HSE, both overblown  concepts that stop anything being done, do people realise the shocking state of "Common Sense" absent in the Country.

Does HSE and Insurance firms  quantify the risks of people sitting on their arses in front of the TV eating take-a-ways and doing bugger all? Dying brain dead and obese.

There musrt be ways round this, or are we all gagged and bound for eternity?

At least two possibles then!

 

 

John

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I am concerned about another looming event.  Les, at Russell Motors, won't be there forever (just like the rest of us...).   He worked at Plumstead...  The two successors to the business are not interested in old bikes, so what will become of his business and stock?  It's not an NOC issue really - it needs someone who is keen to run a small business.

I'm pleased to say that they are open again after the recent and ongoing matters.  If you do call, note he is not there on Mondays or Fridays.

Hello yes I did take up getting a batch of silencers and pipes sorted but you and the Noc  never give any backing and all this would of taken was a letter from the Noc saying they. Would fund this project the exhaust maker in Lincolnshire could not give me a price on this as he had never made them before and wanted to see if he could make just one so he could then give a price on this project but the lack of support and Commination and biased from you just got in the way like the many times I have offers to volunteers to help this club only to be slapped in the face but now retried I am slowly buying Equipment to make my own parts one thing I am looking at is  metal producing 3D printer to make obsolete small parts and I am going to have a go at making a Manxman Silencer my self but first I will have to make my own tooling like a English wheel and die casting moldes  I have space here for a small foundary and I will make some drag boxes for castings but all in my time and as cash allows but At the moment I am consintrating on rebuilding A 350 Navigator and I think this engine could the next future engine for Norton as it is a unit construction with a new Four valve heads and liquid cooled and a bigger bore and stroke it would make a good 800cc engine too be fitted in a spine frame it would look the business for the New Norton this would be well worth looking at,  the biggest problem with the Noc  is the EC not listing to its members and the lack of commuiction and ignoliagement to members trying to help out and this as been the old adage with in this club and. Has for Peter Shand he dose not under stand the word resortaion this means to restore some back to as the makes intended to factory specifaction this is Not rivet  counting as he put it and he owns A Commando that is more then well catered for in spare parts as the same parts where used on other British motorcycles in the same years and were not rebuild cafe races or bobbers or choppers that can get away with any parts they like some of us like to restore obsolete and very Rare Norton Motorcycles never the less and this applies to the Older Norton Machines were there is Lack of parts for them and the Lightweight Norton are in this category of the lack of parts that matter So All Norton Parts Matters  I will start a protest , yours. Anna j 

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Anna, save yourself, you can't do it all on your own, I haven't got my shed up yet!

Maybe I should take a genuine Dominator to India, get them to strip it makes some quality parts and go into business!  Accidentally, smashed my Mobile phone on Sunday, so now my funds will be depleted further!

Perhaps Royal Enfield there would be interested in making parts for the older stuff  & Lightweight twins?

Last time I worked abroad, 2010 on the borders of the Near East, I got Amoebic dysentery and felt the Reaper was sitting on my shoulders, for  7 days, if that infection hits, definitely no riding.

 

Apparently the air has cleared out there and for the first time in 35 years you can see the Himalayas!

 

Dreams eh! Like everything, " We Mortals are just Shadows and Dust", Proximo, Gladiator.

 

I prefer quotes from Gladiator to "Moaning Minnies" Margaret thatcher or Norman Tebbit maybe, who incidentally are bot just shadows and dust as we and our Nortons will be one day, soon!

Hey! Peter, got those letter out yet, about people and spares? "Tempest Fugit"

 

Hope it happens soon.

 

Best regards

 

 

John

 

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Anna

A 'rivet counter' in terms that i'm refering to, is someone who turns up at shows and bike gatherings and proceeds to point out that the exhausts, or rims, or tyres, or paint, etc etc fitted to your bike are wrong, usually accompanied with the words 'that's not original!'

John

You are obviously a moaner, not a do-er. Why don't you organise the 'Letters and spares' and become a do-er.

There is a interesting article on the AN website regarding pirate spares and the impact of using something like fork stanchions that are of inferior make, More relevant to the current discussion is the fact that AN had to buy two tons of the correct steel tube to then have their stanchions made.   

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Peter,

Also, don't forget the two tonnes of special dimension CDS to make the P11 stanchions as well as the bronze bar I needed for valve guides that was also hard to obtain in the UK, and it was not Colsibro. 

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Peter; maybe I will!

 

 

John

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hello  now, what peter calls rivet counters Are in fact 100% Norton enthusiasts  something he does not understand   and says things  with no empathy  and as not much interest of early Nortons  and he seems to have a chip on his shoulder for some reason   where he's taking the branch no-one knowns  and the only interest is riding as far as he can to get the bruce green cup, which to me is senseless  just wearing out your Norton for no reason at all if you need a ride you need to plan your ride to see something interesting on the way and make your ride enjoyable Any way this is not just about making sets of rare Norton Manxman silencers and pipes  there are other older Nortons that need parts that are unobtainable today  besides making them your self if you have some tooling and the know-how, and The Club is about preserving Norton makes  and my last look at Noc spares there running low on parts Lightweight a especially So now ever one known what's needed so let end this argument  and get on whit doing things    like restoring Nortons  Yours  Anna J

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In my opinion the idea with the most promise was the one mentioned by Peter Stowe, copied below 

Seeing as the club can't go open house on the remanufacture of any part suggested by any member to suit their own needs, couldn't each need be put forward to the EC on an individual basis after the member has done the ground work and research?

As for  AJDs comments. I have been to the last two international rallys and the year before them toured Switzerland. my question to you Anna:- Where have you been on your manxman? The last time i saw it, it was trailered to a carpark, You didn't even ride it! and at the club meeting when the bruce green cup was presented to the member with the highest mileage on a Norton you were wanting the club to give an award for the Norton that did the least mileage in the year Which was your manxman!

 

       

 

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Peter, seriously "Individual" needs? 

It's a CLUB, people join CLUBS to get together and assist in mutual projects and needs!

Norton machines must have with respective models some mutual part  demands, through inevitable design flaws, or just wear and tear.

As for being a "Moaner", I will sit on that for a while!

Now Custodian's........interesting word is it not?

 

John

 

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More like temporary custodians, I get calls every day from new temporary custodians. 

A spares system is a self expanding process, and needs to start somewhere, once owners have a rare or hard to find part they'll use the bike, wear out other parts, and thus create further demand.

The reason the club exists is because so many of the bikes still exist, if they become exhibits and garage trophys then spares demand will dwindle, no one will bother making them and it will be a perpetual decline in the marque, with the club being pointless and of no value.

The spares support for some bikes is most probably better now than anytime since the 80's It would be nice if every model had the same level of support, but every part needed could not all be produced at the same time, the human and financial input would be massive.

The Norton spares scheme is busy with just its existing holding, and most probably does not have spare capacity to introduce new parts. Maybe in the future the tech team could help reintroduce the rarer parts, and them put them under the spares scheme once the first batch has been produced. At the moment there is no set up or process to capture 'wants' until there is, then the club can't really plan, direct effort and assistance to aid members in getting the parts needed. 

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I agree with Ashley.  Parts sourcing on a small scale is incredibly time consuming and expensive. The NOC parts people are all volunteers and do a good job. 

I did a rough count of parts held for the various categories of model by copying and pasting the parts list into Excel.  The number of parts lines (part numbers) held for the Commando models is virtually the same as for Lightweight models. Single and heavyweight models have a bigger number but, factor in commonality,  the numbers are not so different.  In would be interesting to look at the demographics of the models owned by club members to see how the parts holding compares.

I am not expecting "Cow's Udders" silencers for my 1938 ES2 to appear in the parts list in the near future.

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If they do, Colin then there should be right and left, to cater for the twin ports....I wonder from time to time if anyone ever bought a twin-port to 'Trials' specification, with the high-level pipes.  It would certainly have been a spectacular thing.

I've seen no literature to indicate that the 'Comp' bikes didn't have the double-outlets although I'm sure I've heard suggestions that in fact the factory gave up on them before the end of the model year.

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.. the only spares that the Club should be sponsoring are those that actually keep our Nortons running. I don't care whether a bike has the "correct" silencer, mudguard etc - I do care if it's only able to be transported on a trailer because its cylinder barrel has fractured and another is unobtainable.

Just my 2 pennorth.

hello only common sense  will tell you that the reason in why I had to trailer my Norton to our show last year  as I set up this show and had to deal with show directional sign boards and carry table and a set of chairs  witch you cannot do by riding a motorcycle  now is there any more comments you like to my get it off your chest now and then leave me out of things  and I do not care about the bruce green cup  or any cups from now on , yours  anna j 

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I think the first stage is to ask ALL members what they would like to see in re-manufactured spares.  It doesn't really matter how expensive or difficult they might be as those would have to be eliminated by the process of "Natural Selection".  It is critical that the demand is known before you can think about supply.  You need to get a feel of the potential demand before anything else.  Hence a "Wishlist".

There are a number of suggested spares in these postings - seemingly dominated by Manxman Silencers perhaps - but that's OK.  Until you get a feel of what parts are really important and currently either unobtainable or in very short supply, you are shooting in the dark.

I think that it's more than reasonable for any motorcycle club to look at the possibility of financing new spares.  One word - "Mudguards"!  Easy to get Wideline types eh?  NOT!   The problem here is as with many other sheet metal parts - making them by hand - and you really need a Wheeler to get the curves right.  Fred Williams is pretty good for front guards for many early Norton models, but he's only one man - and he doesn't want to make the rear Wideline types which are a jigsaw of a thousand parts!  (Yes - I AM exaggerating!)  Don't even mention tin chaincases!  Unobtanium as "new"!

I am lucky enough to own a Bracebridge Street Dommie 99 AND a 1961 Navigator De Luxe!  A good example of spares that NOC used to have, but haven't got now, is the Navigator Side Stand.  Not really a surprise as they were optional extras in the day.

As has been a theme in these posting, I think that it's far more important to have spares that keep a bike going rather than esoteric spot-on correct parts for the year and model so any new parts should reflect that.  Silencers are a good example.  In my first rebuild of my 99 I fitted a "Goldie" silencer to my Siamese pipes because that's what you did to customise - and the pattern ones were dirt cheap!  John Hudson told me that the 99 worked better with Siamese pipes and an "SS Silencer".  I never found out what they were.

I think I am talking myself into a job here and I am happy for people to send spares suggestions to me. I can collate them and even provide original or superceded part numbers from my fairly comprehensive Spares Lists of Lightweight and Heavyweight bikes - but only pre-Commando bikes.   My lists are only post-war. (Although my wife would LOVE a flat tanker!)  Another possible aspect is to find out which members or their friends/family/lovers/acquaintances have an engineering setup that they would be willing and able to use for small batches.  The issues of legality, safety and liability would come afterwards.  This could be considered as Members helping other Members and not a commercial business.  Think of it as in WW2 when parts for planes such as the Spitfire (I am in the home town of that plane and my Mum was involved in building them!) where many small workshops and garages were roped into making parts.

Over to you Chaps and Chapesses.

Stay safe!

 

 

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Lionel,

Firstly, well done for putting your ideas forward. I agree canvassing members for their wish list items is a good place to start. I also agree that the list will get trimmed through a 'natural selection' process e.g. not enough demand, too expensive to manufacture based on a realistic sale price, etc., etc.

I have a Jubilee and my wish list items are a side stand and a solid seat base BUT I would not put these items above those necessary to keep other Norton's on the road.

Good luck with the wish list.

Dennis

In reply to by dennis_thompson

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The more the merrier Dennis!  I just need to sort out how to get this idea to all members in the way that Al Oz did earlier this year looking for information.

What I will ask of people is to give a part number wherever possible.  You ask about "a solid seat base" but Leighton's do the best seats in the business so they are already available.  I am primarily thinking of parts that are not available rather than just trying to manufacture something cheaper.

My question on the Lightweight forum was about sidestands so I know that has a fairly high priority.  The NOC Shop sold them so they musty know a supplier.  Collating information with our own spares section will obviously be important.

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As far as I am aware Leightons cannot supply  bases [for complete seats] for slimline featherbeds, I tried them a number of times to get a complete seat for my '66 Atlas to no avail.

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Are available from Norvil - £136.50+VAT according to their website. Maybe not the best,  but they do work as I hae one.

Regards, George. 

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hello now as for silencers  peter shand as said any after market silencers will do well let us see your bike with a set of ray guns on  it then would look a bit silly would it not  the manxman silencer makes that bike what it is and there is nothing the same any thing else it would look silly   and when you get to own a very rare motorcycle that some of its part are very hard to get hold you do not  go out and ride the hell out of it, just like some bike of the shelf and run of the mill like a Commando  as these where made for a number of styles And over 56,000 of them made Now as for Norton manxman there was less then 600 ever made  and dispersed allover the globe now the owners in the USA now appreciate   these bike to day as even in the USA  there are very rare  and so is the 650ss as well and the model 88 slimlines some people seam to live in their own bubble and do not relises what going on in the classic motorcycle world   owners are now out looking for that rare motorcycle so they have something that bit different from anyone else  that why Norton Built The Norton Manxman in the first place to stand out in a crowd   and in a Class of its own  and it dose this very well its a bike you own carefor and cherish just like my first push bike from new a Eswick tour de angals race bike I loved that bike no one around had one of these back then in 1965 it had a 531 frame everything on it was about racing    any way this club is about running and looking after all Nortons rare or not  so parts need to be made of hard to find Nortons  and there are owners out there that need these parts  and I may have got a after market company to make and sell Manxman silencer and down pipe for them and world wide distributors   Now I need some patterns and help  to get this stared and once the ice as broken then other hard to find parts could follow,  and being negative about things is not going to get any of us far  try helping each other will make for a better club   yours  anna j

"Then again, will the club want to step on the toes of the established suppliers of spares that most of us use? ".  Surely you're not serious Peter?  It should be no consideration at all.  If there is competition it is a good thing - if there is none then it's a bad thing!  There are already suppliers who are in competition with each other, or haven't you noticed? It's the Capitalist way!

It's no use guessing what people want and putting obstacles in the way unless there is a comprehensive survey of members wishlists in the NOC Magazine.

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Lionel

Say the club spares scheme got some fork stanchions made for a Norton, they could very well be in direct competition with the current established suppliers. This could very well impact the numbers sold by the current suppliers, so weakening their sales. To compensate they could put up the prices of the rest of the spares they sell to make up the shortfall. Or they could reduce the quality of the stanchion to then reduce the cost and so promote sales. There is a load of things to take into account with all of this. Losing the goodwill of established suppliers is one of them. 

John Halls initial question was to ask;-

'why is/has Anthony Curzon having to fund the Manxman silencer project, by himself? surely it should have been a project funded by the Club and Anthony should have been recompensed for time and outlay!' 

This is loaded question, very easy to then say 'I have just bought a rare model Norton, its a basket case, and now its the clubs responsibility to fund its restoration' A ridiculous statement at the very least.

One of the previous contributors to this thread quoted that he knew where there was a manxman in bits but was put off buying said pile of bits because of the lack of certain parts. My view is that the bits were probably overpriced in the first place. A manxman in bits is just another 650 twin in bits with silly handlebars. Same as the Commando Hi-rider, a Commando with silly handlebars.

You buy a sixty year old bike, you buy all the problems with it, then either sort out the problems yourself or pay someone to do that for you. The older/rarer the machine the more expensive this will be.

We have a member in our branch who is restoring a vee twin machine of extreme raritiy, the costs racked up so far are in the tens of thousands.    

   

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Peter as a member that is "half a world away" all I want is to go to a supplier that can supply an item that actually fits, an example being- 10 years ago I purchased from a well known UK supplier a set of header pipes for a 650SS no way would they fit, as the cost of freight was and is very expensive returning them was not an option so we had to heat rebend and rechrome I complained to the supplier who's comment was " we've never had a problem before", in the last year a friend who is restoring a Mercury ordered a set of pipes from the same supplier [even though I told him not to] and of course he had the same fitting problems. It is though when a supplier gets an overseas order they send their crap because they know it is to hard for the customer to send it back.

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hello some more bate to get me going well your remarks are so wrong  And as fore silly handlebars  these make more sense then you do peter !!!   And I never said anything or expected this club to fund a restorations,  As I would not ask in the first place, I have funded all my own projects,  And as far has these Exhaust items gose for Manxman twins, This was for other owners so they can buy hard to find items,  But so far there has been a out cry and criticism   in trying in help other Members of this club.  And critic after critic over the Norton Manxman 650 its self.   Witch not many of you even understand this motorcycle, or even what too,  witch is a shame has there fine motorcycles and look that bit different to anything that was produced at Bracebridge Street in this era,  And there  not just another 650,  These were the first of there kind in Norton history but some of you do not Appreciate,  So you all need to get off this case they where built over 60 years ago  now history,  So and try helping other members   with hard to find parts  And thats what the spare part club scheme is about, helping with ( unavailable  Norton parts ) YOURS  Anna J     

 

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