7" T.L.S Which supplier offers the best

Hello Martin,

I am very new to the NOC and indeed Nortons. I do have a motley collection of British bikes--all with non standard from brakes--all but the recently acquired navigator with TLS Brakes.

I have a Rickman Triumph street mettisse with a Laverda TLS it is 8 inches or more and not hugely powerful (duff linings I suspect it was good with AM4 linings).

A 1964 T120 with a 1967 group typle 2LS front brake this is a good brake it is 8 inch but the same brake was made in 7 inches and fitted to BSA 250s 441s small Triumph twin and badge engineered 250s (new ones on sale).

I have a Bsa C25 with b40 engine with the TLS front brake from a Honda 250 K4--very good brake--there are many early Japanese 250/350s with 2ls brakes but--available at reasonable prices.

I have a Triumph 750 OIF with a the 8inch TLS brake from a Bridgestone 175 (the same as the 350--a flukely find of a rare bit)-- a very powerful brake.

If you do not mind the mix of bit--I'd look for a Ja bike one--they are old but probably cost less that a British one that is no better as brake.

Cheers

JPA

If the Indian brake proved effective, why look further? You will certainly not buy a new T.L.S. brake, for 35 pounds, in the U.K.

Hello . My Norton Electra is in need of a 7" T.L.S. front brake. As my wrist has been operated on and the grip is alittle on the weak side.

I just want a plain brake, no vents ,no stiiffening plates. etc.

Are they suppliers or are they just agents. Do they supply the same article. How does their product vary in design and construction.

Which in your view is the best plain assembly.

Looking forward to your experiences in .T.L.S.

Closing now with kind regards to fellow members.

Martin Jones Hull

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously martin_jones1 wrote:

Hello . My Norton Electra is in need of a 7" T.L.S. front brake. As my wrist has been operated on and the grip is alittle on the weak side.

I just want a plain brake, no vents ,no stiiffening plates. etc.

Are they suppliers or are they just agents. Do they supply the same article. How does their product vary in design and construction.

Which in your view is the best plain assembly.

Looking forward to your experiences in .T.L.S.

Closing now with kind regards to fellow members.

Martin Jones Hull

Hello Martin why not go hydraulic brake with pit bike parts from eBay a hydrauic brake slave cylinder the screws in place of your old brake cable all you need is the brake lever set and you can fit one to the rear brake has well make it more afficant yours anna j

That's a very good idea--I know several people who have done it especially with Aerials and AMCs for some reason. Some had hydraulic car drum brake plates fitted.

Martin

I've no direct experience of 7" TLS. The 8" TLS on my old 650 Triumph was a pretty good brake for its time and I would think that the 7" version referred to by John earlier in the thread would be almost as good. These are available from Burton Bike Bits for example:

https://www.britishbikebits.com/7-twin-leading-shoe-front-brake-assembly-bsa-triumph-1969-70#.WKwZGjjVqCk

Also there are 7" Royal Enfield ones from India on ebay, for example:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ROYAL-ENFIELD-7-INCHES-TLS-FRONT-BRAKE-ASSEMBLY-WITH-BRAKE-SHOES-AND-HARDWARE-/182367113957?hash=item2a75ed52e5:g:aSwAAOSwj85YO2H-

Apologies if you already have this info.

Andy

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously martin_jones1 wrote:

Hello . My Norton Electra is in need of a 7" T.L.S. front brake. As my wrist has been operated on and the grip is alittle on the weak side.

I just want a plain brake, no vents ,no stiiffening plates. etc.

Are they suppliers or are they just agents. Do they supply the same article. How does their product vary in design and construction.

Which in your view is the best plain assembly.

Looking forward to your experiences in .T.L.S.

Closing now with kind regards to fellow members.

Martin Jones Hull

Hello Martin why not go hydraulic brake with pit bike parts from eBay a hydrauic brake slave cylinder the screws in place of your old brake cable all you need is the brake lever set and you can fit one to the rear brake has well make it more afficant yours anna j

That's a very good idea--I know several people who have done it especially with Aerials and AMCs for some reason. Some had hydraulic car drum brake plates fitted.

Previously John Shorter wrote:

If the Indian brake proved effective, why look further? You will certainly not buy a new T.L.S. brake, for 35 pounds, in the U.K.

Hello John.

The back T.L.S. brake from India is a 6".and yes it works quite well. If I stamp on it, the rear wheel will tyre squeal on a dry road. but not strong enough to lock up. Its the front brake off Indias latest Bullet model.

If thay made an 8" T.L.S. I would get one tomorrow.

Thank you for your input.

Martin Jones

Have I missed some important bits here ? Surely the Electra has an 8" front brake?. I have just been up to my garage and both my De Luxe Navigator and the Standard Navigator have 8" SLS front brakes which I assumed was standard Dominator ? So any upgrade had to improve on this e.g TLS Commando . I don't think these are available from sources such as India. The 7" TLS from India are very cheap but they won't fit. Or will they ?

Patrick.

Patrick

I reckon you're correct.

See this article http://ridermagazine.com/2009/07/14/retrospective-norton-electra-400-1963-1965/

And in Roy Bacon's Norton Twin Restoration Appendix 12 (pg 231) lists 8 x 1.25" front brake for 350 and 400 twins.

The rear brake on the 400 is 7 x 1.25" as opposed to 6 x 1" for the 350.

Andy

Patrick, you took the words right out of my finger! Having a lever with 7/8th gap between cable and pivot will help too.

dan

Have I missed some important bits here ? Surely the Electra has an 8" front brake?. I have just been up to my garage and both my De Luxe Navigator and the Standard Navigator have 8" SLS front brakes which I assumed was standard Dominator ? So any upgrade had to improve on this e.g TLS Commando . I don't think these are available from sources such as India. The 7" TLS from India are very cheap but they won't fit. Or will they ?

Patrick.

Patrick, you took the words right out of my finger! Having a lever with 7/8th gap between cable and pivot will help too.

dan

Patrick

I reckon you're correct.

See this article http://ridermagazine.com/2009/07/14/retrospective-norton-electra-400-1963-1965/

And in Roy Bacon's Norton Twin Restoration Appendix 12 (pg 231) lists 8 x 1.25" front brake for 350 and 400 twins.

The rear brake on the 400 is 7 x 1.25" as opposed to 6 x 1" for the 350.

Andy

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

Have I missed some important bits here ? Surely the Electra has an 8" front brake?. I have just been up to my garage and both my De Luxe Navigator and the Standard Navigator have 8" SLS front brakes which I assumed was standard Dominator ? So any upgrade had to improve on this e.g TLS Commando . I don't think these are available from sources such as India. The 7" TLS from India are very cheap but they won't fit. Or will they ?

Patrick.

Hello What bar are you drinking Yes they will Fit with some work if you have to use some brains yours anna J

Anna are you saying a 7inch TLS brake plate can be made to fit an 8 inch drum?

I'm new to this forum so somebody is gonna have to let me in on the joke.

This person rambling on above about hydraulic brakes and fitting a 7" backplate into an 8" drum has got to be having a laff, right?

It sounds like the ravings of a mad person.

Dearie me. An Electra should have a bog standard Dominator 8" sls brake fitted. So to go the TLS route all that's needed is a Commando type TLS brakeplate and cable. Simples. Or have I missed something here?

Martyn, Not quite! Anna might not write very clearly but she is an engineer, you can't question her enthusiasm and she has excellent knowledge of Nortons!!

Gordon I think the issue was that you can get cheap 7inch tls brake plates but not 8inch ones. Although I don't think it's clear whether the op has a wheel with a 7 inch brake or if he's mistaken! time will tell!

Previously Martyn Watson wrote:

I'm new to this forum so somebody is gonna have to let me in on the joke.

This person rambling on above about hydraulic brakes and fitting a 7" backplate into an 8" drum has got to be having a laff, right?

It sounds like the ravings of a mad person.

If only, with time you will get used to this sort of thing, unless she maintains her promise not to renew her membership in march.

Hello All

This link is to an advert showing an Electra and referring to 'full-hub front and rear brakes as big as those on the 750cc Atlas'

http://www.classicbike.biz/Norton/A_Link/1960s/63Electra400-Ad.pdf

That looks like 3 independent sources indicating that the standard brake was an 8" at least at sometime in the production of Electras.

Obviously owner needs to check what's fitted and go from there.

"I'll get me coat."

Andy

Previously Charles Bovington wrote:

Previously Martyn Watson wrote:

I'm new to this forum so somebody is gonna have to let me in on the joke.

This person rambling on above about hydraulic brakes and fitting a 7" backplate into an 8" drum has got to be having a laff, right?

It sounds like the ravings of a mad person.

If only, with time you will get used to this sort of thing, unless she maintains her promise not to renew her membership in march.

Charles

What's wrong with what Anna has written? She's suggested going hydraulic. No prob there. She's also assuming that the Op is right and he has s 7" brake. We've assumed he is mistaken and it's a 8inch brake. I've never spoken to her but think the club will be worse off without her.

Nothing personal, but comments like ' what bar are you drinking at and you have to use your brains' do sound a bit arrogant and might intimidate those who are not used to her ways.

Of course it is possible to convert from cable to hydraulic action, but I wonder whether you would want to. These are old bikes and maintaining there original spirit is important to some owners.

There were 3 posts last week on Britbike showing hydraulic conversion to a B50 8" TLS by Mead Tomkinson in the 70's when they raced B50's, no objection from anyone just thanks for posting details.

Nothing personal, but comments like ' what bar are you drinking at and you have to use your brains' do sound a bit arrogant and might intimidate those who are not used to her ways.

Of course it is possible to convert from cable to hydraulic action, but I wonder whether you would want to. These are old bikes and maintaining there original spirit is important to some owners.

I rest my case.

I understand what she is saying, the only issue is that the original post was about a front brake and Anna was talking about a rear. But the same applies to the front, and if your hands are weak fitting hydraulics so you can still ride is a small price to pay in my book

dan

I don't think there is anyone here reading that does not understand what she is saying/repeating over and over (seven times). I just don't think people appreciate being spoken to like idiots with their implied lesser qualifications.

Going hydraulic maybe a legitimate conversion for some that don't mind putting chinese pitbike parts onto their venerable nortons, having that option jammed down yer throat several times and then having someone assume you haven't understood because you haven't agreed is a bit much.

1st law of thermodynamics indicates that energy put into a system will be transferred effectively minus losses, in this case frictional i.e. cables/linkages. Hydraulic systems do not create stronger hand muscles. Pivot distances make a huge difference as has already been mentioned. Modern teflon lined cables are very good, very low friction, do not leak fluid, very reliable, look correct. Sort out the fundamentals of why the brake is poor first (crummy cable, crap linings, bad adjustment etc.) before trying to sidestep around the problem with miracle chinese products from ebay.

Why do we ride our nortons anyway?Hondas have hydraulic brakes already, get a honda.

This is wildly off topic now, the OP asking which TLS backplate could be used in the Electra drum, obvious answer being the commando backplate, being a straight swap. Unfortunately vents and holes abound and it certainly couldn't be accused of being plain.

I can't attest to the quality of the pit bike hydraulics but they may well improve the leverage,

anyway hydraulics on a Norton is a matter of choice and they look ok on this one!

Norvil do the TLS 8" brake in plain form:

http://www.norvilmotorcycle.co.uk/064281.htm

And for some weird reason (might be a typo!) it is cheaper with the stiffening kit!

(ps Martyn - some of the original confusion probably arose from your message title: Re: 7" ... brake - do you really mean that or as both Patrick and Gordon have pointed out - doesn't your bike have the original 8" size?)

Incidentally - on hydraulics:

An SLS brake has both shoes pushed the same distance at the same time. So both theleading and trailing shoes are forced by the mechanical cam to wear at the same rate so they must both provide the same friction force. But with hydraulics, one will self-servo and one will not. So they will wear at different rates. This is because hydraulics apply a force, whereas a cam provides a displacement.

Martyn's point about not getting something for nothing is well made! Oneefficiency benefit from hydraulics is to remove cable and cam friction (and replace it by some smaller friction in the seals). The other is that the relationship between effort and brake force remains the same as the shoes wear because there is no cam angle to change. Hydraulics ismore convenient to a designer because he does not have to concern himself about clear paths for tidy cable runs.

You need to remember that altering the braking system, whether TLS or hydraulic, should be discussed with your insurer. They will probably be OK with fitting a commando TLS, but may well be very unhappy with a home made hydraulic system. Failure to notify will almost certainly invalidate your policy.

I don't think there is anyone here reading that does not understand what she is saying/repeating over and over (seven times). I just don't think people appreciate being spoken to like idiots with their implied lesser qualifications.

Going hydraulic maybe a legitimate conversion for some that don't mind putting chinese pitbike parts onto their venerable nortons, having that option jammed down yer throat several times and then having someone assume you haven't understood because you haven't agreed is a bit much.

1st law of thermodynamics indicates that energy put into a system will be transferred effectively minus losses, in this case frictional i.e. cables/linkages. Hydraulic systems do not create stronger hand muscles. Pivot distances make a huge difference as has already been mentioned. Modern teflon lined cables are very good, very low friction, do not leak fluid, very reliable, look correct. Sort out the fundamentals of why the brake is poor first (crummy cable, crap linings, bad adjustment etc.) before trying to sidestep around the problem with miracle chinese products from ebay.

Why do we ride our nortons anyway?Hondas have hydraulic brakes already, get a honda.

This is wildly off topic now, the OP asking which TLS backplate could be used in the Electra drum, obvious answer being the commando backplate, being a straight swap. Unfortunately vents and holes abound and it certainly couldn't be accused of being plain.

David ... on hydraulics, yes and no! The convertion here is using a slave cylinder to push the cam so it's no different to a cable, and the ease of applying force is dependant on the leverage, hence the difference between a 1 1/4 in and a 7/8 in pivot.

I have no idea what the ratio is for these small pit bike hydraulics but know that other members have used them with success on clutches.

Charles is right to say you need to inform your insurer

That's interesting, Dan. So if this conversion does not involve putting a slave inside the drum like a car (older car...), it only replaces the cable friction and not the cam friction? Sounds like a lot of effort for very little return to me - but I suppose I'd need a 'double blind trial' to find out.

I do have 7/8 lever pivot on my TLS Dommie brake. It is fine although has a tendency to jam on when starting after being left for a few weeks. I know that next time I get the bike out I shall ride up the road (the STRAIGHT road) very slowly and try the brake. It will squeal and stick until I've done couple of hundred yards. Only then will it be safe to use. If I rashly go east instead of west, I will fall off on the curve at the end of the road. Again.

Point taken, but "maintaining original spirit" (and even more so, maintaining original parts) will be harder if one has stuffed the front end through failing to stop quickly enough ...

Previously Charles Bovington wrote:

Of course it is possible to convert from cable to hydraulic action, but I wonder whether you would want to. These are old bikes and maintaining there original spirit is important to some owners.

Previously julian_wells wrote:

Point taken, but "maintaining original spirit" (and even more so, maintaining original parts) will be harder if one has stuffed the front end through failing to stop quickly enough ...

Previously Charles Bovington wrote:

Of course it is possible to convert from cable to hydraulic action, but I wonder whether you would want to. These are old bikes and maintaining there original spirit is important to some owners.

Given that the Electra has a modest weight, about 50 lbs less than a Dominator, and modest performance, 80-85 mph top speed+ a rather good 8'' front brake , I think that stopping quickly should not be a problem.

There is an informative article on Sammy Miller's Electra in the March ' Classic Motor Cycle'.

Roy Ponting, who tested it says that he had no complaints about the brakes.

I see the OP has abandoned this thread now and started a new one so it's probably ok to go off on a tangent....

The 8" SLS can be made to work reasonably well despite the shortcomings of the SLS concept.

The uneven wear of the shoes causes a problem when they are essentially linked by the single cam. Because the trailing shoe wears slower than the faster wearing leading shoe (that does possibly as much as 80% of the work), eventually the pressure the cam is able to apply to the leading shoe is compromised because of the fact that the trailing shoe isn't wearing as fast and is stopping the cam from rotating.

Car drum brakes don't suffer this because the hydraulic slave cylinder automatically compensates for this problem.

Changing the shoes around occasionally would help mitigate this situation or having a floating backplate.

Following (or rambling) on,

It's probably feasible to throw the trailing shoe away and just rely on the leading shoe, the trailing shoe just causes a problem. Anyone that has had to hold a bike pointing uphill on the front brake if the bike is fitted with a big 4LS will have experienced that even four trailing shoes don't do jack..

Hello Something you maybe interestedin In my Amal parts book It tells me that amallevers Part number 18/755 ball end lever righthand. with 7/8ths bar fitting and 1.1/16 pivot between pivot and barrel hole for the cable end, At Monty'sClassic on Ebay Number 132039539041 you find lever for brake and air lever 7/8 bar fitting and 1.1/16 pivot which is the largest pivot you can get hope this may help yours anna j

Anna

although a 1 1/16 gap will give a longer movement of the cable a smaller gap, i.e. 7/8th will make for a much easier action because leverage is improved.

Dan

Have a good look at the pit bike stuff before you commit to buy. They have no bleed nipple so are very difficult to bleed. I tried fitting one to my Commando clutch, and one person on this forum has managed this, but I could not get enough travel in the pull rod to disengage the clutch. Bare in mind most of these are sold as clutch levers so you would have to find another master cylinder. The pit bike stuff is smaller than standard Jap hydraulic fittings. Mine is in the pending drawer, probably shortly to be the bin

Before anyone modifies their brake system and especially if they change to hydraulics, check that your insurance company are happy with this and that you do not infringe construction and use laws.

I really cannot see why you would want to go hydraulic with an Electra. What next, double ceramic discs with 4 pot calipers!

It should not be difficult either to get the big SLS system to work well or to use a cable operated Norton TLS system from ,say, a commando