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Oil consumption

I am a proud owner of Commando 961 since 11. 2012. With only 1700 miles on the clock the engine is suffering with high oil consumption.(oil used: MOTUL 3000 20w50, API SG, meeting JASO T 903). The consumption during the last 800 miles is 2 litres of oil. The performance of the engine seems to be normal. Such an oil consumption is too high for a new engine by my opinion. The rider driving behind me noticed increased volume of smoke from one pipe during heavy acceleration. I am considering to bring the bike to the garage, but my nearest certified service is too far for me now, about 600 miles. Can I drive the bike safely to the garage? I would be thankful for any advice....

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Previously gabriel_vyskocil wrote:

I am a proud owner of Commando 961 since 11. 2012. With only 1700 miles on the clock the engine is suffering with high oil consumption.(oil used: MOTUL 3000 20W50, API SG, meeting JASO T 903). The consumption during the last 800 miles is 2 litres of oil. The performance of the engine seems to be normal. Such an oil consumption is too high for a new engine by my opinion. The rider driving behind me noticed increased volume of smoke from one pipe during heavy acceleration. I am considering to bring the bike to the garage, but my nearest certified service is too far for me now, about 600 miles. Can I drive the bike safely to the garage? I would be thankfull for any advice....

Hi Gabriel, I have had my 961 since March 2011 and covered over 5,000 miles. In that time it has used hardly any oil well under a litre, I check it regular but I rearly have to top up. Remember the level has to be checked when the engine is at normal operating temperature and not from cold and wait for 30 seconds after the engine is stopped. Is it possible that you have over filled with oil?(possible if you have checked when engine has not been run) You should check with Norton tech team if you suspect a problem, I have always found them very helpful. Cheers John

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Thank you, John, Clive. I am well aware of it that the engine is with the dry sump. So I checked the oil properly.An other sign of the oil consumption is, that after 40-50 miles the LLOP warning light goes on by gear change and the intervals wit the light on are by the covered distance longer and longer when the oil is not refilled in time.

Gabriel

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Hi Gabriel

I have my 961 CafÃ? Racer now since May 2012. During the first 3000 miles of riding the bike suffered the same problem as yours with a very high oil consumption (1 litre for 400 to 500 miles of riding). Also I noticed that one exhaust pipe was less passable than the other by comparing exhaust pressure of left and right silencer by hand (may be the same with your bike, if smoke is coming only from one side...). After 3000 miles the cylinders were undergoing a new honing which was recommended and commissioned by my local dealer. See also my following posts for details:http://www.nortonownersclub.org/noc-chat/technical6-961-forum/239969945

Since this honing oil consumption was reduced considerably. However, I had never the oil pressure warning light showing up. This is alarming and I would in your situation not undertake a ride of 600 miles with your bike (maybe something wrong with oil pump?)!

I hope this helps you somehow...

Raphael, Switzerland

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The oil pressure light will come on if the oil level is so low that the pump

is not reaching the oil. Switch off!

Clive willis

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My knowledge in motorcycle mechanics is quite limited, but as far as I know with the oil-in-frame concept and the dry sump of the Commando 961 the suction pump has to be situated well below the oil tank...

But this is of no matter for the in my opinion best advice: "SWITCH IT OFF" to prevent any (more?) damage to the engine.Raphael, Switzerland
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Thanks to all, I will bring the bike to Egli-rcing, Bettwill and from home will use the "Autozug" from Wien up to Feldkirch, to minimize the distance covered by bike...

Gabriel

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Marry Xmass to everybody here, that?s first.

There is no reaction from Norton to the problem of high oil consumption on NC 961s so far. Additionaly a discusion about the same was terminated by admin. It seems to be a seriouscase, when technical expert has 0(zero) contribution to that issue. Or: the concerned person has nothing to say. For any reason.....

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Hi Gabriel,

I'm genuinely sorry that you're no nearer to getting your problem solved. It looks as if Norton are hoping the problem will go away if they ignore it long enough - burying their heads in the sand so to speak as is the EC if the removal of all the critical postings from this thread, including those from 961 owners, is anything to go by, unless Chris Grimmet is working off his own initiative. What was the point of the "Forum Behaviour" thread I wonder. Don't worry, the EC will be working in the best interests of the members - not,

Happy new year.

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Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

Hi Gabriel,

I'm genuinely sorry that you're no nearer to getting your problem solved. It looks as if Norton are hoping the problem will go away if they ignore it long enough - burying their heads in the sand so to speak as is the EC if the removal of all the critical postings from this thread, including those from 961 owners, is anything to go by, unless Chris Grimmet is working off his own initiative. What was the point of the "Forum Behaviour" thread I wonder. Don't worry, the EC will be working in the best interests of the members - not,

Happy new year.

Hi Gabriel

As Simon has said already, sorry to hear that you still have notsorted the problem. Iassume that you are not using it at the moment if the oil light is coming on. I'm surprised that Norton have not replied if you contacted the technical department direct. It would be worth contacting them again as this is a serious problem and I'm sure they wouldn't ignore it !I did have a couple of small problems with my 961 but this was almost 3 years ago and in the first 1000 miles of use. Norton came and collected the bike and sorted the problems and returned it within a week. However I'm in the UK so I can imagine how frustrating it is for you. I had expected Norton to set up more support centers in the UK by now, it is not convenient to take the bike to Donnington for serice/repair if required. They should look at setting up support in all the countries they are supplying to.

I hope that you get an answer from Nortonand get the bike sorted ASAP. Although I've not had this problem with oil consumption myself it would be helpful to know how many 961 owners have and their solution. I don't think Chris will remove or lock this as long as long as replies are constructive and kept on subject.

Cheers, JMc

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Previously john_mcnicoll wrote:

hope that you get an answer from Nortonand get the bike sorted ASAP. Although I've not had this problem with oil consumption myself it would be helpful to know how many 961 owners have and their solution. I don't think Chris will remove or lock this as long as long as replies are constructive and kept on subject.

Cheers, JMc

Of course he won't.

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Gabriel,

Did you take your 961 to Egli in Bettwill? If so did they give you an answer to what the problem/solution may be? Ifyou have not already done so you can also mail Mr Kynnersley direct through the email address in the technical section. One would have hoped that Mr Kynnersley, either as a Norton employee or Technical advisor on the forum, would have been proactive in contacting youdirectly.

If this problem is not affecting all bikes, then in my opinion it is pointing to sub-standard parts being used. If this is the caseI would hope that Norton are able to ascertain through their recordswhich bikes are at risk, and one would also hope that using such information Nortonare able to addressthe issue proactively.

David

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Previously Chris Grimmett wrote:

Previously john_mcnicoll wrote:

hope that you get an answer from Nortonand get the bike sorted ASAP. Although I've not had this problem with oil consumption myself it would be helpful to know how many 961 owners have and their solution. I don't think Chris will remove or lock this as long as long as replies are constructive and kept on subject.

Cheers, JMc

Of course he won't.

Oh yes he will!!

(It is the pantomime season).

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Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

Previously Chris Grimmett wrote:

Previously john_mcnicoll wrote:

hope that you get an answer from Nortonand get the bike sorted ASAP. Although I've not had this problem with oil consumption myself it would be helpful to know how many 961 owners have and their solution. I don't think Chris will remove or lock this as long as long as replies are constructive and kept on subject.

Cheers, JMc

Of course he won't.

Oh yes he will!!

(It is the pantomime season).

Especially in Albrighton

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Previously gabriel_vyskocil wrote:

(oil used: MOTUL 3000 20w50, API SG, meeting JASO T 903).

Gabriel,

I noticed that you are or have been using 20w50 oil, Norton recommend the use of 10w40 semi synthetic oil meeting PI SH and JASO MA.

Whether the use of a different grade of oil than recommended would have an influenceon your bikes oil consumption I do not know, but I am sure one of the better informed members will.

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Oil consumption arises from,leakage,boiling and burning. Assuming its not leaking out, due to poor assembly or manufacture, then we are left with evaporation and poor manufacture. The level of evaporative losses of an oil are measured in the NoAck evaporative loss test and maximum levels are defined in specifications. I would not expect your 20/50 oil to be very different from the 10/40.

This leaves us with the third possibility. The forbidden subject of manufacturing quality.

As Connan doyle says,'When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.'

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I assume not using the recommended grade of oil would make any guarantee void. Although in reality I would think the use of a 20/50 where a 10/40 is recommended would have minimal effect, if any, regarding piston ring to bore sealing as the viscosity would only differ at the extreme ambient temperatures.

Norton's recommended long running-in procedure differs to current practices in the automotive world. I wonder if this is compatible with the bore finishing process they use and is the reason there are reports of high oil consumption.

Still no word from Norton on these pages as to why some of their bikes are using more oil than a two stroke.

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Previously barry_owen wrote:

Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

Previously Chris Grimmett wrote:

Previously john_mcnicoll wrote:

hope that you get an answer from Nortonand get the bike sorted ASAP. Although I've not had this problem with oil consumption myself it would be helpful to know how many 961 owners have and their solution. I don't think Chris will remove or lock this as long as long as replies are constructive and kept on subject.

Cheers, JMc

Of course he won't.

Oh yes he will!!

(It is the pantomime season).

Especially in Albrighton

Are you appearing in any, Barry?

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Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

Norton's recommended long running-in procedure differs to current practices in the automotive world. I wonder if this is compatible with the bore finishing process they use and is the reason there are reports of high oil consumption.

If we assume that Simon is correct, would all engines run in by "the book" be affected, or would it still be a random occurence? Secondy (please bear with me on this as I don't have a degree in engineering) is the only satisfactory solution the replacement of the rings/barrels?

John Mc - your bike is not affected by high oil consumption, how did you run your bike in?

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If bore ovality is within current accepted tolerances (no more than 0.0002") and the ring gap within manufacturers tolerance, then the bores could be plateau honed and new rings fitted. Running-in process is then usually loading the engine by repeated acceleration x 10, or take the bike on a twisty country lane, where there will be repeated acceleration and decceleration through the gears. Properly honed, the rings will bed-in to the bores within minutes.

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Simon may have a point, I ran my 961 in quite fast but did not load it too muchin the first 600 miles. I even took iton a track day at Silverstone to see how it handled with around 200 miles on the clock. I didn't rev it to the limit but between 6,000 - 7,000 revsthrough the gears. My bike has been fine so far with low oil consumption, and performance is good with an indicated top speed of around 130mph if I want it.

JMc

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Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

Previously barry_owen wrote:

Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

Previously Chris Grimmett wrote:

Previously john_mcnicoll wrote:

hope that you get an answer from Nortonand get the bike sorted ASAP. Although I've not had this problem with oil consumption myself it would be helpful to know how many 961 owners have and their solution. I don't think Chris will remove or lock this as long as long as replies are constructive and kept on subject.

Cheers, JMc

Of course he won't.

Oh yes he will!!

(It is the pantomime season).

Especially in Albrighton

Are you appearing in any, Barry?

Already have done

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Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

If bore ovality is within current accepted tolerances (no more than 0.0002") and the ring gap within manufacturers tolerance, then the bores could be plateau honed and new rings fitted. Running-in process is then usually loading the engine by repeated acceleration x 10, or take the bike on a twisty country lane, where there will be repeated acceleration and decceleration through the gears. Properly honed, the rings will bed-in to the bores within minutes.

This is incorrect information. Plateau honing will not de-glaze a cylinder ! Plateau honing will not properly cross hatch a cylinder for oil retention and proper scuff in of rings to seal. Plateau honing is the final step of a multi-step process. A plateau hone is just a glorified nylon brush with fine abrasives embeded in it !

Years ago most cyclinders had cast iron liners which were bored then honed with an abrasive stone wiper hone. This conventional hone removed metal and could correct minor flaws in roundness and taper and provided the final precision size of the bore. It also provided the all important "cross hatching" for oil retention and scuffing in of the rings. The rings were heavier and thicker then todays rings and would usually brake-in within 300 - 500 miles.

Today, most NOT ALL manufacturers use cylinders that are impregnated with some form of nitriding which leaves a very hard surface. The cylinders are honed and then if the rings are designed forultra high finish,the plateau honing is done as a final step to flatten off the top ridges of the cross hatch left by the earlier honing and clean the bore, thus the term "plateau". This leaves a very fine finish. The rings for this are also coated, the system must be designed from the begining for plateau honing. it is not something you do randomly. To plateau hone a more conventional bore would be a disaster as the rings would never seal and you would have a poor running engine, creating exactly what we are trying to avoid here! If the process is engineered correctly from the start then the rings may seal in as little as 20 miles or on the dyno at the factory if the OEM does extensive dyno run-in.

The situation DavidC. describes would be better served with an abrasive ball hone assuming the bore, roundness, taper and size was within specs. A plateau hone could then be used Onlyif the rings were designed for ultra finish applications!

There is a lot of mis-information on this forum! I don't claim to be an expert but I have been doing this for 37 years, quite succesfully!

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Previously bob_parsons wrote:

Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

If bore ovality is within current accepted tolerances (no more than 0.0002") and the ring gap within manufacturers tolerance, then the bores could be plateau honed and new rings fitted. Running-in process is then usually loading the engine by repeated acceleration x 10, or take the bike on a twisty country lane, where there will be repeated acceleration and decceleration through the gears. Properly honed, the rings will bed-in to the bores within minutes.

This is incorrect information. Plateau honing will not de-glaze a cylinder ! Plateau honing will not properly cross hatch a cylinder for oil retention and proper scuff in of rings to seal. Plateau honing is the final step of a multi-step process. A plateau hone is just a glorified nylon brush with fine abrasives embeded in it !

Using a silicon carbide ball hone (see; http://www.brushresearch.com/) will de-glaze, plateau hone and provide the required cross hatch. The above manufacturer supplies ball hones specifically for plateau honing. They also supply abrasive nylon brushes but do not recommend them for plateau honing.

Years ago most cyclinders had cast iron liners which were bored then honed with an abrasive stone wiper hone. This conventional hone removed metal and could correct minor flaws in roundness and taper and provided the final precision size of the bore. It also provided the all important "cross hatching" for oil retention and scuffing in of the rings. The rings were heavier and thicker then todays rings and would usually brake-in within 300 - 500 miles.

Brake-in, or running-in, is nothing to do with the weight and dimensions of the rings. It is primarily dependent on the surface finish of the cylinder bore. i.e plateau honing in comparison to honing which leaves jagged peaks preventing the rings from sealing until worn away by the rings, which also wears the rings. Performing this operation during the machining process is much more beneficial for engine performance (ring/bore sealing) and longevity.

Today, most NOT ALL manufacturers use cylinders that are impregnated with some form of nitriding which leaves a very hard surface. The cylinders are honed and then if the rings are designed forultra high finish,the plateau honing is done as a final step to flatten off the top ridges of the cross hatch left by the earlier honing and clean the bore, thus the term "plateau". This leaves a very fine finish. The rings for this are also coated, the system must be designed from the begining for plateau honing. it is not something you do randomly. To plateau hone a more conventional bore would be a disaster as the rings would never seal and you would have a poor running engine, creating exactly what we are trying to avoid here!

This is nonsense. Any quality piston ring will be finished to a high standard and will provide a better seal, quicker, if the rough peaks from honing are removed by plateau honing whether the bore undergoes hardening treatments or not.

The situation DavidC. describes would be better served with an abrasive ball hone assuming the bore, roundness, taper and size was within specs. A plateau hone could then be used Onlyif the rings were designed for ultra finish applications!

There is a lot of mis-information on this forum! I don't claim to be an expert but I have been doing this for 37 years, quite succesfully!

Abrasive ball hones and flex hones are trade marks of Brush Research Manufacturing (see above website link) and are specifically designed for plateau honing.

I agree with your last part regarding mis-information on this forum. Doing something for any length of time is no gaurantee of understanding.

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The website you referenced said almost exactly verbatim what I said and is contrary to your original post. Wrong is wrong Simon!

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Some years ago I carried out a study of surface finish and its effect on wear and oil consumption. Others participating included Universities of Coventry and Birmingham, GKN Sheepbridge Stokes.

Plateau Honing as the final part of the 3 stage process for producing an engine liner. It removes the tops of the rough peaks and aids running in without consequential damage to the piston rings.

Lubricated 600 grit stones of SiC or SiN are usually used for this. The cross hatching angle also has an effect on Oil Consumption. The angle depends on the feed to rotation speed ratio and shoild be between 40 and 60 deg.

Brush honing is a poor substitute for this and should be avoided. Sunnen have useful information on Honing on their web site.

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Previously bob_parsons wrote:

The website you referenced said almost exactly verbatim what I said and is contrary to your original post. Wrong is wrong Simon!

Whatever.

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Previously charles_bovington wrote:

Some years ago I carried out a study of surface finish and its effect on wear and oil consumption. Others participating included Universities of Coventry and Birmingham, GKN Sheepbridge Stokes.

Plateau Honing as the final part of the 3 stage process for producing an engine liner. It removes the tops of the rough peaks and aids running in without consequential damage to the piston rings.

Lubricated 600 grit stones of SiC or SiN are usually used for this. The cross hatching angle also has an effect on Oil Consumption. The angle depends on the feed to rotation speed ratio and shoild be between 40 and 60 deg.

Brush honing is a poor substitute for this and should be avoided. Sunnen have useful information on Honing on their web site.

Charles,

I'm sure you're aware technology never stands still. I suggest you look at the info. and videos on the above website. The theory is proven with surface analyser readouts in their literature also.

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Previously charles_bovington wrote:

Brush honing is a poor substitute for this and should be avoided. Sunnen have useful information on Honing on their web site.

Charles, We use Sunnen products almost exclusively. Our parts can be found on the Moon, The International Space Station, The Shuttle, most airliners, nuclear submarines, and a few bikes, cars, trucks, and snowmobiles.

Rolls Royce, Nasa, US Navy, Boeing, Airbus, GM and dozens of others think we understand ! Sorry Simon!

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Previously bob_parsons wrote:

Previously charles_bovington wrote:

Brush honing is a poor substitute for this and should be avoided. Sunnen have useful information on Honing on their web site.

Charles, We use Sunnen products almost exclusively. Our parts can be found on the Moon, The International Space Station, The Shuttle, most airliners, nuclear submarines, and a few bikes, cars, trucks, and snowmobiles.

Rolls Royce, Nasa, US Navy, Boeing, Airbus, GM and dozens of others think we understand ! Sorry Simon!

Bob,

In your opinion, why are several owners of 961 Norton four stroke engined motorcycles reporting oil consumption comparable to a two stroke?

I understand you are a new owner but yet to cover any significant mileage, therefore your personal experiences are irrelevant. I'm specifically refering to the owners with oil consumption of approx. 1 litre/1000kms. I'm interested in your technical opinion - not a marketing department cop out.

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Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

Previously bob_parsons wrote:

Previously charles_bovington wrote:

Brush honing is a poor substitute for this and should be avoided. Sunnen have useful information on Honing on their web site.

Charles, We use Sunnen products almost exclusively. Our parts can be found on the Moon, The International Space Station, The Shuttle, most airliners, nuclear submarines, and a few bikes, cars, trucks, and snowmobiles.

Rolls Royce, Nasa, US Navy, Boeing, Airbus, GM and dozens of others think we understand ! Sorry Simon!

Bob,

In your opinion, why are several owners of 961 Norton four stroke engined motorcycles reporting oil consumption comparable to a two stroke?

I understand you are a new owner but yet to cover any significant mileage, therefore your personal experiences are irrelevant. I'm specifically refering to the owners with oil consumption of approx. 1 litre/1000kms. I'm interested in your technical opinion - not a marketing department cop out.

I have met at least 10 other 961 owners at shows and Norton club days. So far not one I have spoken to has had this high oil consumption problem. I would be good to know if anyone in the UK has has this problem. It would also be helpful if we hadsome feedback from the factory.

As I've said before my 961 has not had this problem but I would like to know how many are affected. Even my 38 year old 850 uses a lot less than 1 litre/1000kms and has done well over 30,000 miles since the engine was overhauled.

JMc

Attachments 961-and-850-commandos
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Previously john_mcnicoll wrote:

I have met at least 10 other 961 owners at shows and Norton club days. So far not one I have spoken to has had this high oil consumption problem. I would be good to know if anyone in the UK has has this problem. It would also be helpful if we hadsome feedback from the factory.

As I've said before my 961 has not had this problem but I would like to know how many are affected. Even my 38 year old 850 uses a lot less than 1 litre/1000kms and has done well over 30,000 miles since the engine was overhauled.

JMc

My Cafe Racer was first registeredin theUKand not intended as such for export. The oil consumption is not as bad as some cases but over the last 2000 miles ithas seemed to get progressively worse. I have no accurate figure as yet, but a good guess is approx 1.5l in 2000 miles which equates to approx 0,75l/1000miles. The bike has covered approx 4200 miles. I'm not holding my breath as regards feedback from Norton.

David

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Previously john_mcnicoll wrote:

Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

Previously bob_parsons wrote:

Previously charles_bovington wrote:

Brush honing is a poor substitute for this and should be avoided. Sunnen have useful information on Honing on their web site.

Charles, We use Sunnen products almost exclusively. Our parts can be found on the Moon, The International Space Station, The Shuttle, most airliners, nuclear submarines, and a few bikes, cars, trucks, and snowmobiles.

Rolls Royce, Nasa, US Navy, Boeing, Airbus, GM and dozens of others think we understand ! Sorry Simon!

Bob,

In your opinion, why are several owners of 961 Norton four stroke engined motorcycles reporting oil consumption comparable to a two stroke?

I understand you are a new owner but yet to cover any significant mileage, therefore your personal experiences are irrelevant. I'm specifically refering to the owners with oil consumption of approx. 1 litre/1000kms. I'm interested in your technical opinion - not a marketing department cop out.

I have met at least 10 other 961 owners at shows and Norton club days. So far not one I have spoken to has had this high oil consumption problem. I would be good to know if anyone in the UK has has this problem. It would also be helpful if we hadsome feedback from the factory.

As I've said before my 961 has not had this problem but I would like to know how many are affected. Even my 38 year old 850 uses a lot less than 1 litre/1000kms and has done well over 30,000 miles since the engine was overhauled.

JMc

John,

First, 2 gorgeous bikes, good for you!

You asked a legitamit question so I will give you my best answer !

First I count 4 firsthand owners accounts of high oil consumption, plus many "I know someone with this problem stories". 4 bikes with high oil consumption is a very small percentage of the total. Internet hysteria is rampant here and a person with a problem will tell dozens of people, a person with no issues does not tell anyone! But there is a problem and I don't want to make light of it!

The 961 is a handmade, new production, new design bike. I do not think this is a break-in problem! Norton has changed some of its componenent suppliers, and has taken over engine assembly from another outside source. The reasons for all this change will forever be debated here, but I believe Norton is trying to gain control of any quality issues, especially in the US market which is critical to their longterm success. There is a huge learning curve here ! Each time there is a significant change it opens the door for issues both good and bad. I believe there have been a few issues, with rings, valves and valve seals.

I have been in touch with the factory, the importer, and someone who is about to become a huge player in the US market as well as my own dealer. They are guardinginformation very closely and freely admit it is because of internet rumor mills. Out of respect for their confidence in me I am not going to get into details. But it seems there is some new technology on the US bikes and it is causing a minor problem, the bikes are still rideable and being ridden. Norton has been very proactive about this issue and is investing much money and time on a very rapid fix! What they have learned will be good for all of us.

Short story is we have fallen in love with an exotic, not a mass produced economical bike. With an exotic, whether a car or bike, there will be issues. I am trying to sort mine in the winter months and I think my bike will be perfect well before spring!

John, I hope this is an acceptable answer!

Bob

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After reading my post above I realize I may have directed my answer to John on a question that was asked by Simon. Simon if this is true, my sincerest apologies !

Bob

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Previously bob_parsons wrote:

After reading my post above I realize I may have directed my answer to John on a question that was asked by Simon. Simon if this is true, my sincerest apologies !

Bob

Thanks for the explanation Bob, I'm pleased Norton are looking into this. I hope you get your bike fully sorted by the spring, my bike is almost 3 years old now. I had a few small problems at first but I had excellent support from Norton and they were all resolved swiftly. However I don't expect Simon will be satisfied !

Cheers, John

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Bob,

I was interested in your technical opinion as to why 5 owners now have a problem with high oil consumption, you must have misread the question. I didn't realise there is a continuing problem with your bike after the initial smoking exhaust.

Sorry to hear about your oil consumption, David. 630miles/pint is obviously not good.

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Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

Bob,

I was interested in your technical opinion as to why 5 owners now have a problem with high oil consumption, you must have misread the question. I didn't realise there is a continuing problem with your bike after the initial smoking exhaust.

Sorry to hear about your oil consumption, David. 630miles/pint is obviously not good.

Simon,

First, I am not having a continuing problem with my bike!

Second, that was my technical opinion, new bike, new design, new production, expected issues, less then 1/2 % ( one half of 1 percent )reporting high oil consumption. At least 1 of those was a prototype bike and the owner should have known there would be issues, same owner reported Norton transported the bike a long distance both ways did a complete top end overhaul, all for free, all well after the warranty period !!!

I am an engineerby education, make my living in manufacturing, biker for 40 years. For any company to design a new vehicle, form a company, start production and have as few issues as have been reported here is truly an amazingly successful effort!

A Multi-Billion Dollar company GM, is having much more issues with the new 7th Generation Corvette. That car is hailed as a World Class ground breaking automobile, as it should be. There are still hundreds of issues bringing it to production. How about Indian Motorcycles, way more issues!

IfI bought a new Toyota,I would have none of these issues, I wouldn't have a new Vette either. I chose the Vette!

I chose a World Class bike also, and do not regret it !

Simon, If you don't mind what is your educational background and what do you do for a living, I am just trying to see it from your side?

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Previously john_mcnicoll wrote:

Previously bob_parsons wrote:

After reading my post above I realize I may have directed my answer to John on a question that was asked by Simon. Simon if this is true, my sincerest apologies !

Bob

Thanks for the explanation Bob, I'm pleased Norton are looking into this. I hope you get your bike fully sorted by the spring, my bike is almost 3 years old now. I had a few small problems at first but I had excellent support from Norton and they were all resolved swiftly. However I don't expect Simon will be satisfied !

Cheers, John

And your expectations would be correct John !

Regards, Bob

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Bob you wrote:

"less then 1/2 % ( one half of 1 percent )reporting high oil consumption."

I would be interested to know where you have obtained your information frombecause as far as I am aware not even Mr Garner will comment on how many bikes have been produced. Seen another way there are 5 cases of high oil consumption here on the forum and perhaps less than 20 users who own a 961, this changes the percentage significantly, but without concrete information my statement, like yours, has no validity

"I have been in touch with the factory, the importer, and someone who is about to become a huge player in the US market as well as my own dealer. They are guardinginformation very closely and freely admit it is because of internet rumor mills. Out of respect for their confidence in me I am not going to get into details. But it seems there is some new technology on the US bikes and it is causing a minor problem, the bikes are still rideable and being ridden. Norton has been very proactive about this issue and is investing much money and time on a very rapid fix! What they have learned will be good for all of us."

This is precisely the sort of comment that fans the flames of internet rumours - I know something you don't but what it is I'm not telling you. It is much better to keep such comments to one's self. I should imagine Norton will be very pleased you have given people grounds for further speculation.

"The 961 is a handmade, new production, new design bike. I do not think this is a break-in problem!"

A product entering it's 4th year of production - basically unchanged -can hardly be classed as new production/new design.

"Internet hysteria is rampant here"

I may be alonewith this opinion,but I have not read anything in the previous posts that could be classed as hysterical.

David

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Bob,

you've made the following comments;

It smoked badly the first 2 minutes. I put about 50 miles on the bike and it ran great. I started it again a few hours after my ride with no smoke at all. The dealer says this is normal because of hard rings which are not seated yet and will get better with mileage. Do your bikes smoke on startup after sitting several days and if so does it get better with mileage ??

and;

I believe there have been a few issues, with rings, valves and valve seals.

and;

But it seems there is some new technology on the US bikes and it is causing a minor problem

and;

I am trying to sort mine in the winter months and I think my bike will be perfect well before spring!

followed by;

First, I am not having a continuing problem with my bike!

and;

I do not think this is a break-in problem!

I'm confused to what your having to 'sort' on a brand new bike to make it perfect. If there's problems with the US bikes then surely yours will be affected also. I take it you do not believe your dealers diagnosis to your problem as you contradict his opinion with your last point.

You don't state what the 'new technology' is that Norton are alledgedly using but imply this is the cause of the high oil consumption, but there is nothing new in the engine design. OHV pushrod engines have been around for decades. It is common practice in engineering to take advantage of current, proven technology - research and development is expensive and it would not be a sensible decision to incorporate unproven, new technology in a product, especially for a company with limited funds.

Second, that was my technical opinion, new bike, new design, new production, expected issues, less then 1/2 % ( one half of 1 percent )reporting high oil consumption.

You gave reasons why a company may have problems with production, but not for the high oil consumption which is why I assumed you mis-read my question.

Simon, If you don't mind what is your educational background and what do you do for a living, I am just trying to see it from your side?

It should be obvious to any engineer that 'my side' is from an engineering point of view. My experience in manufacturing does not extend to 37 years. I do have formal engineering qualifications and continue to study mechanical/automotive engineering informally. Would it make my argument more valid if I'd had 38 years in manufacturing?

I've received poor quality work from several machine shops with '25 years experience' and 'specialists' etc. which is why I have educated myself in respect to reboring/honing theory, for example. So I'm naturally wary when 'time served' is used to support an argument.

Engineering is based on logic and the laws of nature. I don't see why you can't put forward a logical argument without refering to years in service, where your products go and who they are for.

I agree with all of David's points in his previous posting.

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My figures come from the factory. As to no significant changes the engine that Norton is producing now has several design changes from the 2010-2011 engine and has many Rolling changes made at the production line. When I say technology it is not about being a push rod engine or not, Much smaller changes are considered "technology" in the US.

There are no secrets here,. anyone who has attended the latest Factory/ importer rolloutsie Toronto, New York could have this info if they asked a lot of questions

I do agree with David on at least one area, that is I may be fanning the flames.So I will say no more, enjoy your bikes Gentlemen !

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Previously bob_parsons wrote:

My figures come from the factory. As to no significant changes the engine that Norton is producing now has several design changes from the 2010-2011 engine and has many Rolling changes made at the production line. When I say technology it is not about being a push rod engine or not, Much smaller changes are considered "technology" in the US.

There are no secrets here,. anyone who has attended the latest Factory/ importer rolloutsie Toronto, New York could have this info if they asked a lot of questions

So as there are no secrets, maybe you would like to expand on the several design and many "Rolling"(?) changes.

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Even though the new 961s are not yet on sale in California I have been following the various postings with interest.

Would it not be beneficial to have a list of the serial numbers of the suspect bikes generated? If, there was a time in the manufacturing stream that all the bikes were made then maybe the cause of the problem could be identified.

I can think of no other betterplace where the list could be compiled but here.

Mike

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Previously michael_sullivan wrote:

Even though the new 961s are not yet on sale in California I have been following the various postings with interest.

Would it not be beneficial to have a list of the serial numbers of the suspect bikes generated? If, there was a time in the manufacturing stream that all the bikes were made then maybe the cause of the problem could be identified.

I can think of no other betterplace where the list could be compiled but here.

Mike

Mike,

This would only be of real value if the serial numbers have been used in strict numerical order, which I am led to believe has not been the case (see Phil Hannam's post in the news and views forum behaviour thread). I would suggest the factory is well aware of which bikes are or could be affected (through information collated from warranty claims, complaints etc), but chooses not to address the issue proactively.

David

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Previously bob_parsons wrote:

My figures come from the factory. As to no significant changes the engine that Norton is producing now has several design changes from the 2010-2011 engine and has many Rolling changes made at the production line. When I say technology it is not about being a push rod engine or not, Much smaller changes are considered "technology" in the US.

There are no secrets here,. anyone who has attended the latest Factory/ importer rolloutsie Toronto, New York could have this info if they asked a lot of questions

I do agree with David on at least one area, that is I may be fanning the flames.So I will say no more, enjoy your bikes Gentlemen !

I agree Bob it's best to leave this alone now, it would have been nice to get something from Norton but that's not going to happen ! It's a shame that we have not got an answer yet, I think all the current owners and potential owners need to know.

This is me enjoying my 961 back in March 2011 at Silverstone and it just gets better with more miles.

Attachments 961-silvers
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It is realy strange that Norton does not ANY comments on the high oil consumption of their engines. But theere is also a possibility, that Norton is not interested with N.O.C. members issues presented in this forum.

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Posted by sean_kynnersley at June 25. 2013"NORTON MOTORCYCLES UK LTD. Following the posting by Pierre-Oliver Michel,regarding his 2011 Norton Commando we decided to step in and resolve the current issues....... We will be taking this up with the dealer in question and have apologised for the poor service Mr Michel received from the dealer in question. You can be assured the Norton Factory will NEVER abandon itâs valued riders."Am I correct in thinking the owners with high oil consumption have complained to Norton only to be told that 1litre/1000kms is normal?

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Norton now Nikasil coat the bores instead of using a liner, perhaps this is why? It does show though that they are still developing the bike and trying to fix problems which is a good thing. Keep it up Norton and when the faults are resolved i will buy one to go with my MK2a Commando.

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Nikasil bore??? Is it true that Norton is using this process? That is a direct deposit on the aluminum bore, right?

What happens when you need an overbore? Do you then have to buy a new cylinder set? I guess that you could have the cylinder bored out and a sleeve shrunk in but Norton thinks that this is not a good idea in the first place.

Mike

 


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