Oil consumption

Previously michael_sullivan wrote:

Nikasil bore??? Is it true that Norton is using this process? That is a direct deposit on the aluminum bore, right?

What happens when you need an overbore? Do you then have to buy a new cylinder set? I guess that you could have the cylinder bored out and a sleeve shrunk in but Norton thinks that this is not a good idea in the first place.

Mike

I believe a rebore is possible but the cylinders must then be recoated.

Previously david_charlesworth wrote:

Previously michael_sullivan wrote:

Nikasil bore??? Is it true that Norton is using this process? That is a direct deposit on the aluminum bore, right?

What happens when you need an overbore? Do you then have to buy a new cylinder set? I guess that you could have the cylinder bored out and a sleeve shrunk in but Norton thinks that this is not a good idea in the first place.

Mike

I believe a rebore is possible but the cylinders must then be recoated.

It's a moot point. Whether piston ring to cyl. bore sealing, valve guides, valve seals, head gasket, cylinder distortion or porous castings are the cause of the high oil consumption, no one will know until Norton Motorcycles (UK) Ltd fix the problem - or an owner pays out of their own pocket to get it fixed.

Is the warranty the industry norm of 2 or 3 years unlimited mileage, parts and labour?

Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

Is the warranty the industry norm of 2 or 3 years unlimited mileage, parts and labour?

2 years unlimited mileage, parts & labour.

Previously simon_ratcliff wrote:

It's a moot point. Whether piston ring to cyl. bore sealing, valve guides, valve seals, head gasket, cylinder distortion or porous castings are the cause of the high oil consumption, no one will know until Norton Motorcycles (UK) Ltd fix the problem - or an owner pays out of their own pocket to get it fixed.

Hello everyone

My Commando 961 is right now in winter service (6000 miles) andit will get fitted new oversize pistons to it, enabling to rebore and hone for a normal quality surface of cylinders.

I will report here as soon as I have more details from my dealerabout this procedure and the success concerning oil consumption when I did some miles with my bike in springtime.

Raphael Vonaesch, Switzerland

Previously david_charlesworth wrote:

Previously michael_sullivan wrote:

Nikasil bore??? Is it true that Norton is using this process? That is a direct deposit on the aluminum bore, right?

What happens when you need an overbore? Do you then have to buy a new cylinder set? I guess that you could have the cylinder bored out and a sleeve shrunk in but Norton thinks that this is not a good idea in the first place.

Mike

I believe a rebore is possible but the cylinders must then be recoated.

Nikilsil cylinders cant can't be bored out, but BMW have been using them on the airhead pushrods twins since 1981 and the cylinders have a very long life, well over 150K miles and you will need to replace the pistons before then! This is very much proven technology. The later 'oil head " BMWsp bikes have a reputation of taking up to 20k miles to stop using oil, but by all accounts are very sweet thereafter and BMW don't consider a liter per 1000 miles to be "abnormal"

charles

Moto Guzzi use nikasil bores as well. I stripped a T3 top end at 60,000 miles out of idle curiosity and there was no measurable wear. The bores can be recoated if need be.

Hi everybody

As promissed before follows here a little update on the process of solving the problem with high oil consumption on my Commando 961 by my local dealer. See attached pictures.

Concerning the effect on oil consumption, I will report in a month or two...

Raphael

Previously raphael_vonaesch wrote:

Hi everybody

As promissed before follows here a little update on the process of solving the problem with high oil consumption on my Commando 961 by my local dealer. See attached pictures.

Concerning the effect on oil consumption, I will report in a month or two...

Raphael

Is your bike back on the road now? If so you should be able to evaluate the oil consumption and performance within a few hundred miles. We would all be interested to know if it's sorted.

JMc

Back to the question if nikasil.....

The photo of the cylinder that Rafael supplied certainly did not look like a nikasil bore. It looked like good ol' cast iron with a nice crosshatch hone job.

Question: were the new pistons supplied by the factory under warrantee? And were there any obvious differences between the original pistons and the replacements?

Mike

Previously michael_sullivan wrote:

Back to the question if nikasil.....

The photo of the cylinder that Rafael supplied certainly did not look like a nikasil bore. It looked like good ol' cast iron with a nice crosshatch hone job.

Question: were the new pistons supplied by the factory under warrantee? And were there any obvious differences between the original pistons and the replacements?

Mike

Previously raphael_vonaesch wrote:

Previously michael_sullivan wrote:

Back to the question if nikasil.....

The photo of the cylinder that Rafael supplied certainly did not look like a nikasil bore. It looked like good ol' cast iron with a nice crosshatch hone job.

Question: were the new pistons supplied by the factory under warrantee? And were there any obvious differences between the original pistons and the replacements?

Mike

No, it is not a Nikasil bore. It is a good ol' cast iron with a nice crosshatch hone job.And no, unfortunately (or maybe better fortunately?) the new pistons were not supplied by Norton UK but have been commissioned directly by my local dealer. No warranty payment by Norton UK, they just seem to ignore the problem with the high oil consumption among other warranty issues.The major difference is that the new pistons have an oversize of0.05 mm, which means 88.05 mm in diameter instead of the original 88 mm and they are a bit lighter in weight.Others had their cylinders even to be rebored for an oversize of 0.5 mm due to a very bad surface quality of the cylinder bores.Raphael, Switzerland

Previously bob_parsons wrote:

Previously raphael_vonaesch wrote:

Previously michael_sullivan wrote:

Back to the question if nikasil.....

The photo of the cylinder that Rafael supplied certainly did not look like a nikasil bore. It looked like good ol' cast iron with a nice crosshatch hone job.

Question: were the new pistons supplied by the factory under warrantee? And were there any obvious differences between the original pistons and the replacements?

Mike

No, it is not a Nikasil bore. It is a good ol' cast iron with a nice crosshatch hone job.And no, unfortunately (or maybe better fortunately?) the new pistons were not supplied by Norton UK but have been commissioned directly by my local dealer. No warranty payment by Norton UK, they just seem to ignore the problem with the high oil consumption among other warranty issues.The major difference is that the new pistons have an oversize of0.05 mm, which means 88.05 mm in diameter instead of the original 88 mm and they are a bit lighter in weight.Others had their cylinders even to be rebored for an oversize of 0.5 mm due to a very bad surface quality of the cylinder bores.Raphael, Switzerland

Norton did not go to Nikasil bores until 2013. They are now just like Triumph and several other major manufacturers !Bob, USA

I have 3 friends in the US and 1 in Canada and between the 5 of us not 1 961 is burning any oil. I agree with you John if I was as unhappy as he is I would send it down the road. It is obvious his dealer has not complied with the warranty requirements as he admitted earlier. Norton has a problem with that 1 dealer not the other way around ! I have heard of no other dealers having a problem like that !

Hello

Back to the topic: I will get my bike back on the road by end of this March and am looking forward to cover miles without having to worry about the oil level all the time... John, I will let you know about the change on oil consumption, no worries. But I won't sell you my bike, sorry

Raphael

Previously raphael_vonaesch wrote:

Hello

I am not at all fed up with my 961, otherwise I would have stopped long before to invest any time and money for it... But you can be assured that I am fed up with Norton UK and it's policy over here! But this topic is already discussed in other threads where I made my statements of facts and some speculations on it...

Back to the topic: I will get my bike back on the road by end of this March and am looking forward to cover miles without having to worry about the oil level all the time... John, I will let you know about the change on oil consumption, no worries. But I won't sell you my bike, sorry

Raphael

That's good to hear Raphael, I'm pleased that you are keeping the bike. It really is a superb bike when it working as it should and has to be one of the best looking. I hope that you can now enjoy riding it as much as me andall the other owners I've spoken to.

John Mc

Raphael:

With the new non-factory pistons (and I presume non-standard rings) has the oil comsumption/smoking problem gone away?

Mike

Hi Mike

As I said a bit further above, I'll get my Commando back on the road not before next Saturday. After some miles driven I will report about oil consumption, promised...!

Raphael

Previously raphael_vonaesch wrote:

Hello everybody!Here comes the promised update on the success of my local dealer's measures taken against oil consumption of my CafÃ? Racer (see posts before).Since I got my bike back two weeks ago I rode 350 miles (about more than 500 km) with it. Today, the level of motor oil was still on the maximum mark without any filling up in the meantime. Whereas earlier (before the oversize pistons were fitted), I would have had to fill up more than 0.5 litres of oil for this mileage driven.Raphael, SwitzerlandBTW: Still no word from Norton UK what is concerning this major problem and "of course" no payment from Norton UK for those measures among several other warranty claims...

I've been monitoring my Cafe Racers oil consumption over the last week or so 470 miles - 550ml oil.

Previously david_charlesworth wrote:

Glad to hear the problem appears to be solved. Are you having to finance the repairs yourself? It's a pity that Norton still remain silent on the subject, which appears to be the fitting of substandard parts after all.

Previously raphael_vonaesch wrote:

Previously david_charlesworth wrote:

Glad to hear the problem appears to be solved. Are you having to finance the repairs yourself? It's a pity that Norton still remain silent on the subject, which appears to be the fitting of substandard parts after all.

Hi DaveAbout the financing of the final solution to the problem with the extensive oil consumption, I can inform you as follows:I had to pre-finance the new oversize pistons, the hone of the cylinders and all the labour by my dealer at his cost price. If Norton UK will finally take its responsibility and pay my dealer for the warranty claims, I may get my money back.Very unsatisfying, but the only reasonable way for the moment to keep my bike on the road...Raphael

Hi Raphael

Thats pitifull. I was in contact with Norton and a dealer today regarding my Cafe Racers oil consumption. After Norton told me 1,2l/1000miles is still acceptable I rang a dealer and asked if he had come across the problem before and how much the repairs were likely to cost. He asked me how many miles it has on the clock, after I answered 4600 he said "so you've got one with a good engine then, we've had to deal with the problem on bikes with only 600 miles on the clock". The repairs could cost anything up to 2000â? or more if Norton do not accept it as warranty work. The dealer also has had problems with Norton UK.

Dave