does someone have any idea of the number of International producted prewar each year, in each size (350 and 500), especially in 1933 and 1934?
just as curiosity!
Thank you very much,
merci à vous tous.
This turned up fairly recently but I can't remember where. It might have been on this site somewhere. I seem to remember about 100 Model 30 a year and about 1/2 that number of Model 40 during the 1930's. I hope some will come up with something better. Being top of the range they probably mostly lived in dry garages and because they kept their value a bigger proportion of them probably survived than the side valves etc. They are over represented in shows because owners tend to leave the 16H at home when they go to special events.
Tank you very much David.
and does someone knows the ratio between bikes ordered in racing trim and Road going models?
No idea. Maybe if we knew what proportion have the 'pawnbroker's balls' stampings? Nobody seems to know for certain what they mean but some say they show it was assembled in the competition shop. In the 30's, people often raced their road machines - ride to the track, strip the lights and silencer and compete - so maybe there wasn't much distinction? My old friend had a vintage Frazer Nash sports car (late 1920's) and records show that when it went back to the dealer for repairs, they fixed it and then took it (a customer's car) to Brooklands to race it!
Sure you’re right. I suppose the 1932’ bikes was very close from works bikes but each year later the differences between road and race bike going always bigger. I was wondering because my 1934 M40 was ordered with « special tuned engine to full Manx specs », it was dispatched in June to be raced during 1934 Manx GP.
it had been fitted with full bronze head, racing special crankcase....
Concerning the little three circle stamp, no sure if it could help.
I saw some on standard road going CJ crankcase and I Also saw some racing crankcase without them.
may be the RR50 stamp could also help, mine got it, and old mechanical told me that this hiduminium alloy was expensive and only used for racing destination before généralisation of elektron alloy, who knows?
...were stamped on my 35/36 model CS1 alloy cases,shipped to Taylor M, Brisbane with clocks in plated tank.... A proper show pony.... Not sure why it would be race shop built?
Then my 37 Inter MS machine with elektron cases, cambox and brake plate, matching alloy barrel and bronze skull head but no stamping...
Leaves the balls mystery wide open...
I don't have any figures for 1933/34 period, but for 1934/35 October to September are below. These numbers may be up from the previous year as the economy was still recovering from the depression of the early '30s
348cc CJ = 32, 348cc International = 83, 490cc CS1 = 94, 490cc International = 172, 596cc International = 7.
These figures were compiled by Norton historian Peter Roydhouse, but he did not record how many of these were to Racing Specification. By this time the racing machines were to a defined specification compared to the road versions. My guess would be about 35% of Inters would be Race Spec. The club has the full records, but who's got time to sort out that lot ?
thank you very much Richard for this beautiful and very precise information, clearly david was right about the ratio of 1/2 between 500 and 350 inter If I remember good concerning the 596, 51 were produced during the thirties until the 50s because I owned a few years ago one of this big bangger but that's another subject
indeed the sales figures must have increased over the years from the beginning of the thirties with probably a slowdown as ww2 approaches.
it would be very nice to see the details but, what a job to search that in the factory records....
merci beaucoup à tous
I think I remember now (but not sure) there is something about this on this web site in the archive of RoadHolder magazines.
Hi Thierry, David, Jon,
The numbers I listed were taken from Mick Woollett's book "Norton" ISBN 1-85532-202-1 which is worth getting if you don't have one. These numbers are probably in older Roadholders as I think Peter Roydhouse researched them for the benefit of NOC members.
I think the numbers held up well in 1939 as many people thought another war with Germany would not happen. There were 61 Race Spec Inters made that year, but as these can be replicated using post-war parts there are many more now than were actually made in 1939 !
I'm not sure about the 3 ball symbol, but a possibility might be that an engine that was recondition by the factory after some time/mileage was stamped with this as a reference, so this could be on any model, not just competition. I wonder if Stan Dibben or any employee from his era knows of it's significance.
I have the Mick Wollett's book and vaguely remember that I had read the figures sometime but remembering which book becomes a difficulty nowadays.
The 3 balls symbol is a mystery and hope someone of the era replies. Your thought might be expanded to reworked engines internal to the factory after corrective work, making them non standard. My 35 CS1 was shipped to Brisbane in 1936 complete with the markings and I had it back in 2005 after Matt Darwon spotted it for sale, bought it and shipped it for me. Next rework it saw was George Cohen's when I lost a rocker spindle coming over the black mountains and lost the cam tunnel!!!
..the notorious and possibly unnecessary cam tunnel? With the race type direct oil feed to the cams, the cam tunnel should not be necessary, should it? It probably provides an oil bath which is not probably needed if direct oil feed is provided. Is it? Perhaps a new thread...
... this being a CS1 did not have the central feed and suspect it relied on the dipping lobe to keep wet.
George sorted it in a couple of hours... ...and supplied the replacement rocker spindle.
Top man when it came to "knockers"
So nice to see how passionated people are here ....
my wife thinks sometimes I’m a little Crazy with my interest about inter‘s and Norton’s cammy’s....so much time spend to read and looking for parts or informations...
I feel less alone...
Barry Stickland our OHC expert has helped out with this, and as David has mentioned, the info is in the Roadholder archive from 1994 number 173 compiled by Peter R.
Thierry, I think we are all possessed by the Norton bug, my wife has spent most of our married years excusing me to our friends and family, but I know I am on the higher plane !
Dear Richard!! ‘thank you so much .
This production numbers are extremely interesting!!!
Surprisingly, 1935 is the year with the smallest number of racing inter postwar?!!!?