Bike is 1959 Dommi 99. Asssuming my testing procedure is correct I have established that the reason my Alternator is no longer charging is due to my Stator being grounded. This is my second failure of a Goff supplied Lucas Stator. Is this just bad luck or is it something I am doing wrong during fitting ? Or is there another likely cause ?
Lucas electrical components are now Wassell items and so are aftermarket items. A number of problems have been reported with new Lucas products so not really surprised.
Not sure if an Enfield Bullet alternator is a straight fit. If so it would do the job well and cheaply. The one on my Enfield Bullet works well - 60/55 watt headlight plus hot grips and plenty wiggly amps to spare.
What John says is right. There have been several complaints of burned out "new Lucas" stators, even when people have carefully set the running clearance correctly. Issues also include mounting holes too small to allow adjustment, epoxy resin too 'generous' to get the mounting nuts on as well.
A question for all forum readers - is/was it the Emgo stators that were or hopefully still are made in the UK and are the real old Lucas (but not allowed to be called Lucas) instead of the south east asian made ones sold by Wassell under the Lucas brand name? Anyone confirm or know what the brand is if not Emgo? Edit:See John Holmes reply below - LAP are the UK made ones.
What I do know is that I have one of their 3 phase ones - got it from Norvil 20+ years ago - on my 650 and there have been no fitting or running issues with it.
Another question for Mike. What method of voltage control are you using?
Had to replace the stator on my -60 99 in -66. Vibrations had caused wire insulation in the coils to rub off. I believe that's the reason why Lucas changed to sealed ones.
The UK made stators are made by LAP on the original Lucas tooling, one stockist is TMS Motorcycles of Nottingham. TMS also sell the Wassell Lucas ones made in the Far East so pick the ones described as Made in UK. LAP are ex Lucas employees but cannot use the Lucas trademark.
Thank You John,
Yes, that is the one. Mine is an LAP stator. Only issue I've had is the sleeving for the wires has deteriorated inside the chaincase (heat? oil?) but is fine outside. Running/charging has been and is still fine.
Emgo parts are made in Taiwan where they are based.
George, Voltage control is via a Lucas 200W single phase Rectifier/Regulator supplied by Paul Goff. Tests show that this is still functioning as intended.
On the box that the 'Lucas Stator' came in it states "Genuine Lucas High Outout 200W Stator £89.95". In small print on the box it also states " The trademarks 'Lucas' and the Diagonal Device are owned by Lucas Industries Ltd." There is no mention of Wassell anywhere. Are you still staying these particular Stators are Wassell ? If this is the case my understanding of the advice given is that I should buy a LAP Stator from TMS Motorcycles of Nottingham. I assume this will function with my existing Goff supplied 'Lucas' Rectifier/Regulator ? Will it also function with my Goff supplied 'Lucas' Rotor or should I purchase a new Rotor with the LAP Stator ?
John, contacted TMS and they no longer sell LAP Stators. Do you know of anyone else who might ?
TMS was my only lead, but this guy is selling them on ebay, will get one myself as they may be planning not to make any more ;(
KBH Motorcycles Ltd
Unit 1 Whiteoaks Court Davids Lane
On the box that the 'Lucas Stator' came in it states "Genuine Lucas High Outout 200W Stator £89.95". In small print on the box it also states " The trademarks 'Lucas' and the Diagonal Device are owned by Lucas Industries Ltd." There is no mention of Wassell anywhere.
Wassell rent the Lucas Trademark for use on motorcycle parts, all the Green box stuff for sale of recent manufacture is sourced by Wassell, most if not all is of Far Eastern manufacture.
In 2014, Wassell acquired the licence for the Lucas brand from Lucas Industries Limited, for Classic Motorcycle parts. In conjunction with Lucas, an extensive product development programme for Classic Motorcycle parts was initiated, to once again, establish Lucas as a market leader within the industry. Further information is available at www.lucasclassicmotorcycle.com
In 2019, Wassell acquired the extended licence for Lucas Classic products, and Girling products worldwide, for Classic motorcycles. The Lucas Classic programme launched in 2019, and included the Lucas Classic Car, Lucas Classic Landrover, and Lucas Classic Motorcycle divisions.
You have been warned.
So, if LAP stators become ‘unobtanium’, what are the options for anyone wanting to upgrade to 12 volts? It looks like the answer is ‘Not a hope in hell’. That really concerns me as I’m rebuilding a 1960 Dommie and am (hopefully) planning to run electronic ignition, lights and indicators so need a reliable 12 volt source. If (as it seems) it will no longer be possible to convert to 12 volts, my project and many others will just stop dead on the bench - that’s not a pleasant thought.
It may be worthwhile asking Norvil. Les lists stators as Wassell, 'Genuine Lucas' (which could be the same thing...) and some unlisted as to make.
Despite lots of +/- issues with Norvil, they are passionate about things being made in England wherever possible so you/we may still be in luck.
Thanks George. I’ve emailed Norvil to see what stators they are stocking.
It looks like it’s bad news for anyone wanting to convert a Dommie to 12 volt operation.
I contacted TMS, RGM, AN, Norvil, Feked and KBH. They are all only selling Wassel or ‘new’ Lucas stators. It looks like Wassel have cornered the market with their rubbish stators. LAP stators are no longer made.
So I’d better get my desk strengthened as it looks like I’m now building a Dommie paperweight. :-(
I know that I could just use the original mag set-up but I hate setting up points and magnetos are a black art to me.
I have fitted a Commando ES single phase alternator to my 99. Don't know whether these are wassel or not , RGM supplied . A few minor issues with fitting but nothing too difficult.
Thanks Robert, I’ll take a look at the RGM web site. Out of interest, what were the ‘minor fitting issues’ that you had? Did they require an angle grinder and club hammer to complete the installation?
Angle grinder and club hammer always on the top of my tool box ,just shortened the oil tank bolts with it to make it QD. The alternator stud holes are a little big and some thin sleeves needed. The lead exit not in the same place a lttle resin carving to get clearance from the primary cover The New rotor needed a shim behind to get centered in the stator (RGM) . Rectifier got a cooling plate, Zener diode would be overloaded so better charge control needed ,or run with lights on.
Will follow this up.
I kicked off this forum subject with my concerns as to the quality of the Goff supplied Lucas/Wassell stators. These concerns are still valid, but I have located and fixed (maybe only temporarily) my current problem. My Dommi has been converted to belt drive and hence the alternator protrudes further from the bike than a normal set up. This in turn means the primary chain case cover cannot be pulled home to it's correct position and has to be spaced out. As a result of this set up the wires from the stator had been shorted out against the stator body. I've now ground away some of the metal, removing the sharp edge, and re-insulated the wires. Back to charging.
Others must have experienced sililar issues with this set up. My question now is by how much I can safely relieve the area around the wires and so avoid them being crushed by the chain case cover ? Can I dig away some of the encapsulation material ? Can I grind away more of the metal without reducing the performance ?
The 'traditional' installation is to have the wires come out the front face so that they don't get lunched by the chain. I'm sure that the stator can fit on with the wires coming out of the rear side.
IF they are well away from the belt.and can be secured such that they cannot be eaten, why not put it on back to front? I have a chain primary so this is pure conjecture on my part as to whether this would work.
I'm sure others with belts will say yes or no to doing this.
If as we suspect the so called LUCAS item is made through a company called Wassell, then why hasn't anyone contacted Wassell for their technical understanding of these issues? I would suggest Wassell do not understand nor do not want to understand any of these problems.
The Reg/rect sold by P Goff is NOT Lucas it is chinese-the A reg. Which AOSERVICES provide a back up for.
The idea that a Dommie cannot be made 12V as the stator isn't available is of course nonsense. You can use the original RM18 or earlier stator to get 12V no problem. IF 12V stators were NOT available then 90% of classic bikes would be off the road. If we keep buying 'made in far east' but do NOT take it back when it fails then we only have our own poor usage and acceptance of these products.
Hi Al. I’m interested in your comment that, “You can use the original RM18 or earlier stator to get 12V no problem”. Is the RM18 (or ‘earlier’) stator a 6-volt alternator stator? If so, how do you get it to produce 12 volts? I’m not doubting your statement, I’m just keen to understand how to get 12 volts out of an old style 6 volt stator (if that is what you actually meant).
From the early 50s British motorcycles had LUCAS (and Wipac maybe even Miller) 3 wire stators for 6V coil ignition bikes. (ignore the 5 wire Energy Transfer). By connecting the HIGH output to the LOW output (becomes a two wire alternator) we get 12V (after the rectifier). IF you run with a large battery (say more than 11Ahr) and you have coil ignition and you keep your lights on all the time, and kept the revs down you would not need a Zener diode, But if you did run 'no lights' you would need some regulation ie the Lucas Zener diode set for 14.5 V to charge a 12V battery. These early alternators were all modest output (less than 80W or so).
In the mid 1960s Lucas came up with the RM19 74mm rotor=more output, (ie 110W) now we MUST have a Zener (all this implies coil ignition) The RM21 is a two wire version of the RM19 ie it was intended for 12V only (with Zener). 3 wires-RM19 and earlier numbers are NOT 3 phase. 9 pole pieces is 3 phase. There is NO 3 phase rotor.
RM21 (two wire) can now give 6V with usage of the 6V modern Regulator/Rectifier. There is lots of Higher output stators on the market these days, they all need the Reg/Rect (or fancy Zener circuit)
Thanks for the explanation Al. I never realised the old style stators could be used like that. Tony