Replacement Frame

Jan,

I've been told that the dealers did have spare frames when the machines were commonly used and occasionally bent!  So, a replacement frame was needed and these were un-stamped.  It may therefore be possible that your frame was replaced after the introduction of the plunger frame and the customer was given the choice of which frame he had.  They would have had to provide a lot of other parts to convert from a solid rea end to a plunger setup.

Once replaced, the dealer would stamp up the frame to suit.

Philip.

Hi Jan,

   Do you have any pictures of your bike? I was thinking it could have had a plunger conversion which was a popular modification in the late 1940s and early 1950s. Spare frames were available to purchase from Norton, but they also offered an up-dating service where you could send your early machine to the factory to be fitted with later components and they would stamp the frame to match the original.

Jan,

It was comment from a BSA owner friend about the replacement frames being held by dealers so cannot confirm this practice.  If this was done I don't expect they would need to inform the Norton factory if the were Authorised Norton Agents.

Philip

I have a similar situation with my 1935 Inter MS.  I was fortunate enough to retain the original  registration as it was put away a long time before SORN but still had the registration docs on file.  The machine would have been rigid, but mine is plunger framed running Long Road holders.

Wheels are 21 /20 steel, black rim, large bolt through tank, no pie crust. Full wrap oil tank( pie Crust) magnesium brake plate, (small  air scoop), finned rear drum and full length saddle.

No frame number in the usual places but an "S" in the web of the head stock and a number  consistent with 1935.   I believe the 35 bike to be built into the frame using compatible parts but  new where necessary.

 It was parked up in the late 70's when there was not a huge value to such a machine so not done to be a look alike and cash in.

 I have kept it in this guise with all its oddities and stickers as its "of the day" and goes very nicely.

 I assume frame breakage and replacement as I see little in the way of accident damage to the original 1935 parts.  It was a Romford based bike for many many years, ridden to the TT yearly with standard Inter gearing and no kick start.

 Jon

Tough guys       

Hi Jan,

   Your frame looks to date from 1947 to 1949. Looking closely at your photo I can see a couple of anomalies and my guess is this could be an ES2 frame and a reproduction petrol tank. I am not 100% sure as it's difficult to see the fine detail. It might be worth removing the paint around the frame number and see if there are any under-lying previous numbers. Having said that, if you have a current V5c registration document it might be best to not get too involved as you could open up a can of worms.

   I am attaching a couple scans from the 1949 parts book which lists the bare frames at £30 each.

Perhaps a slight aside. I have a 1957 R,Enfield 350 Bullet in addition to the 59 Dominator, The engine number on the RE is a duplicate of a 1949 engine number for an earlier machine yet is recorded in the factory records as being as dispatched (again!) in 1957. The owners club and others tell me it is the right frame number and matching(if different) engine number as dispatched since alterations to the factory ledger could only be done in the factory. The engine number matching the original 57 frame number is crossed out and my engine number hand written put in instead against that 57 frame number.. The is no evidence on the casing of any 'after market' butchered alterations to the engine number. The 1949 engine could not have been recycled as it would have required too much re-manufacture. It would appear someone miss set the date punch possibly after a reflective lunch time session in the pub. Anyway apologies for my ramblings Hugh    

Inter on left

Hi again Jan,

   Yes the Inter and ES2 frames are different as Michael's picture shows, but the 500cc engine will fit either and the pre-war CS1 frame was almost the same as the ES2 from 1932 to 1939. The 2 main problems with fitting an Inter engine in an ES2 frame is the downdraught carb and the clearance issues with an original petrol tank. Your frame number looks to be stamped on the front engine lug, but it should be on the front petrol tank lug, so it may have been stamped in recent years. I am attaching 2 photos of my 1939 ES2 frame and a friends 1939 Inter frame for comparison, the ES2 is front and left in the photos.

My main area of study invloves the WD machines...about as far from the Inters as it's possible to get, but there are pages in the 1939 records which show 'Spare Frames' for the army and the RAF. All of these have numbers from within the normal sequences...which begs the question of whether replacement frames supplied to private owners simply came from the frame store bearing whatever number was on them, or whether there was a supply of unstamped frames.

My understanding is that a the local authority licensing authorities had no problem with changing a frame number in those days...the idea that it was forever associated with a log book seems to have been a more recent thing.

Have you asked the Club Singles records officer for his opinion of location and font type ?

In the days before centralised, computerised licensing systems, nobody bothered with such things. The owner probably replaced the frame and stamped it. He would not have informed Big Brother. What was there to say? As long as it was properly taxed, nobody would have cared. It's not a Rembrandt. If you have a V5C with the same number as the frame number, I don't see what the worry is. Apart from pure curiosity. If you open correspondence with DVLA, they might well take away its number and you could end up with an age related number. And if they are totally confused you might get a 'Q' plate and then have to pay tax and get it MOT tested. Just enjoy Christmas!

...and if you do not have a V5C, just apply for one, with pictures and numbers as they are, and build date to match the frame. They are not motorcycle historians, and all they care about is whether it really is old enough to qualify for Historic status. My 1902 vet has a build date of 1902 and reclaimed it's original number plate, but the V5C has build date 1902, but 'first taxed' in 1958 when it was restored. (Although they weren't quite as obsessive in those days)

Is Jan actually in the UK ? Most European countries have theoretically similar rules but implementation can vary widely.

DVLA in the UK like nothing better than to declare numbers invalid and to re-stamp frames with a new 17-digit VIN...Not a place that I'd want to go.

Hi Jan/and all,

   I am attaching a picture of my 1939 Inter frame number. Over the last 45 years I have owned more than 20 Norton single cylinder type frames, both pre and post-war, and they have all had the number in the same place. I have seen numbers stamped in the same location as yours and I think they have all been racing models. It is possible this was done to indicate a replacement frame, but I have no proper evidence of this. For anyone trying to get a machine registered nowadays it is more difficult as the onus falls on the club official (Chris Streather) to verify the bike is authentic and that official could be held legally responsible for any inaccurate information. This has come about because of fraudulent registration in the past when you could find out this information and produce a Works racing machine or a sought after registration plate too easily.

...that frame and engine numbers are the same for prewar origin.  The "F" suffix would denote '51 model year, the engine looks a little later also.  Is the left side sump drain plug blocked off?  Other  than the documentation what is the premise that its a 32 model?   I'll take some pics of mine over the holiday period to show the points of reference on mine.

Cheers

Jon