Points ignition or Boyer - what's the difference?

Many, many years ago both me and my brother had Commando's and we both got a Lucas Rita ignition kit each. We then fitted them and went for a ride. A back to back comparison revealed comments like Holy S***, *&%$ me etc etc etc. Such was the difference. Smooth tickover, clean performance and easy starting. This is coming from two luddites to hi tech gizmo's. I have fitted leccy ignition to all my bikes since, with the exception of magnito models.

Boo

I have no experience of a new ATD set-up but echo the above. A Boyer will give a much smoother more progressive advance than sloppy springs and a worn bob-weight assembly.

I have read on-line that the original Boyer doesn't have an ideal advance curve for the Commando but to be honest, apart from a sensistivity to low battery volts, I couldn't really fault it at the time and wouldn't replace mine now unless it fails.

Same for me, Richard. I have had a Mk 3 Boyer since 1989 on my Commando and it has never failed or needed attention.

When the battery is flat or just knackered it will back fire and even refuse to start. But who wants a flat battery anyway?

Points are a backward step but on a Commando, the bob weights etc tend to be shaken about lots. My Boyer's are maintenance free.

Hello Ady, my experience of late is that many people requiring after-market electronic ignition for their Nortons (and other bikes - particularly Twins) are now opting for either Pazon or Tri Spark - both are more expensive than Boyer but they seem to be of a more robust design and technically better performance. I personally have used Tri-Spark on both Twins and Triples and have found them to be very good with good technical support (if needed). The modern 'Classic Twin' has a very good anti-kickback' feature which works a treat and saves your ankle and foot! and is good if you later opt to fit an electric starter (Alton etc.)

I have no particular preference for the Boyer ignition, but going back thirty years, the choice was between that and the almost twice as expensive RITA with the large spun cover on the pick-up assembly.

I've been through the broken wire problems but actually always on the cable where it passes through the timing chest. I now use twin flex there and replace the length every couple of years (I've just done it this week in preparation for coming over for Norton Day !)

I assume that the cable problem away from the pick-up could actually apply to any ignition but there is no doubt that the Boyer produces confusing symptoms as the cable breaks down.

Tri-Spark is neat but worries me as the timing cover is such a hostile environment for all that elec-trickery. Pazon seems a good choice for anyone starting with a clean sheet...but my Boyer is still working and I have a spare in my touring kit so I'll probably stick with it for the time being.

I've used them all over the years and my preference is for the Pazon. The Boyer Bransden is, as has been asserted by others, a very worthwhile improvement over the old points but they are prone to failures. The Lucas Rita was great - if expensive - but I'm not sure if they're still made?

My latest Commando which I only acquired a few weeks ago was fitted with a Boyer but the Ignition was 'breaking down' on a long run and only giving a weak and overly advanced spark on one cylinder. This was probably due to a dry solder joint somewhere - endemic in the Boyer Mk 3. I've now replaced it with a Pazon and it's fine - simply a better product IMHO.

I fully agree with Richard's view - if you have got Boyer bits then keep them working by changing the pick-up connections and refreshing the wiring.

I also echo Chris' view that we have all suffered as a result of Boyer's success. The Rita was a much better (reliable) system when it was available in the 1970s, but the Boyer was the cheap one, and guess which one people bought!

IMHO Boyer were incompetent to have designed the pick up that way (soldered wires) and compounded the error by failing to correct the design for years. As a result endless Commandos have broken down on trips with the failed pickup wires.

I threw away my Boyer Power Box (alternator regulator) several years ago when I found it was not supplying a high enough voltage. It is about 0.5v low and it means that the battery sort of charges but not enough. Speaking to an electrical expert he said he had complained to Boyer that the design voltage was wrong, but apparently that is what they thought was best.

The early RITA with the finned box apparently drew a lot of current so there was an argument for fitting the Boyer and Mistral Engineering became very difficult to contact in the 1980s.

I fitted the Boyer at the time as the pick-up fitted behind the standard points cover.

I hated the look of the big spun cover supplied with the RITA which distorted as soon as the screws were tightened as there were no internal abutments...and as a non-engineer with no facilities at the time, it never occurred to me to me to make up an alternative....so I''ve been a hostage to the looks really....but hey, if the looks weren't important, maybe I'd be riding an MZ ES or a CX500 rather than a Commando Roadster...

Ady

Sorry if we didn't really answer your direct question about points, but hopefully the general waffle from us was helpful.

I remember when I first put a strobe on my points Mk3 back in 1976/77 and seeing that at 4,000 rpm the strobe image of the timing line was all over the place - I had a surprise when I fitted a Rita and the timing line was stable. This does not imply that bikes running on points cannot run acceptably - I don't think that the combustion chamber really cares if the spark is +/- 5deg, as long as it averages the right place.

Note that your Boyer repair of 16 years ago, if you resoldered the pickup wires, will fail again at some point. Resoldering and aralditing the wires to the fibre plate will extend the life (which is what Boyer did), but (as Richard says) the wires will fail at another place. The critical failure point is where the solder penetrates into the copper wire and stops.

Norm

Its perfectly possible to run with points and electronic switching of the ignition current. I use a points assist unit on two bikes . It allows the static timing to be done in the old way if required, it also takes the load off the points so that they last almost indefinately. The points gap can be closed a little to reduce bounce. I also have a Boyer and Rita in use too. The Boyer (On an Atlas) has never let me down and does not seem to mind low voltage which is unusual. The Boyer has a more gradual advance than the points system and definately takes away some of the instant urge of the Atlas ,and is impossible to time accurately with a strobe due to Atlas vibration. So its a bit of trial and error.

I have two 850 Commandos - a Mk1a with original points ignition and a Mk3 with Boyer mk3. Both run fine right through the rev band. The Mk3 starts really easily 1st or 2nd kick while the Mk1a normally takes 4 or 5 swings to fire it up. However , the Mk3 with Boyer has a rather ponderous throttle response while that of the Mk1a with points is more crisp and instantanious. Ignoring the maintenance aspect of points ignition , I prefer the engine running characteristics of points ignition. Horses for courses.

In a recent Roadholder Martin Jones I think it was, purchased new points gubbins at a fantastic price. I bushed the advance/retard mechanism on an old one I had lying around to take up the 20 thou of slack in the cam. It works well but, and here's the rub, setting the timing by the static method used in any of the workshop manuals will result in a massively advanced spark. You must verify your timing with a strobe.

I ran with a boyer for years but thought I would upgrade to a trispark. Some obscure problems with the charging from a boyer powerbox gave me some problems (now resolved) but a misfire on the way to and from the AGM with trispark resulted in me re-fitting the boyer. Trying the trispark again it runs fine. I now carry the boyer as a spare and the wiring is still in place for it.

The advance mechanism of the old points system means the spark is fully advanced at about 2000 rpm and that is what gives you the kick in the pants. Too many things to keep on top of in a points system, cam spindle wear, points, condensers etc.