Ethanol in fuel

I'm seeing issues now, biggest problem is finding out who has what in their petrol, supermarket brandsare using Ethanol asfar as I can make out, Tesco's premium is the worst (Ethanol can help boost Octane seemingly) so if you think you're giving the old Commando a treat think again!

Ethanol is a killer for fibreglass tanks, older rubber hoses , some plastics and cork used in seals in old petrol taps. This is a (another) downside of the green lobby and actually another con by govenments and oil companies. At the moment in the uK weare limited to a maximum of5%in our petrol but going up to 10% next year, thats when the real trouble starts. Ethanoldoes not have the same explosive effect as petrol (to put it simply) so your gallon of petrol / ethanol mix will propel your bike or car less than the equivalent pure petrol, thus you use more petrol, great isn't it. also it will potentially cause havoc with old fuel systems.

A good sealer (look to America for advice they have been suffering 10% or E10 as its called ethanol issues for a while) will help and you may have to renew some hoses. Its a suck it and see job just like valve seat reccessionwith the advent of unleaded but be prepared to have more fuel/ carburetter problems in the future.

Oh and make sure theres no water in your fuel system, it helps separate the ethanol from the petrol and since its heavier it will be the nearest to the petrol tap!

Happy days just because the lunatics are running the asylum!

Previously wrote:

Hi Chaps - I've posted this under 'Commando' cos I've got on but it applies to all our bikes. I was reading an article in this months Real Classic ref the 5 to 10% ethanol being added to modern fuel and its detrimental effect on existing tank sealer. Having read this I popped out to the garage and peered into the Interstate tank on my Commando - I was somewhat concerned to see that the coating of Petseal I applied about 15 years ago was fast peeling away from the metal. The coating of Petseal was fine about 6 months ago thus I can only conclude that the ethanol is the cause. I checked the inside of my BSA Rocket 3 tank and found the same thing. The 'peelings' are now floating in suspension in the fuel and will obviously need cleaning out. The only 'saving-grace' is that Petseal has done its job in as much as the tank metal is in very good nick and will be fine when re-coated. I've looked at the sealant advertised by Caswell Europe - it looks OK and one £45.00 kit should just be enough for my two tanks. Have any of you any experience of this issue and suitable tank sealers.

It has been said that ethanol attracts water, that is the only downside i know of. adding water dispersantssuch asgas line antifreeze regularly, solves that issue.

The horror stories about peeling tank sealers go on and on. I for one have never used them for that reason. I have two fibreglass tanks that are still intact after40 years in original state. the unleaded was supposed to destroy them? I doubt that ethanol will either.might be something that occurs when fuel just sits in them for long periods on bikes that are used as coffee tables. solution:if your not riding it, drain the tank.

I've been on the nasty end of this recently,

My 1953 Matchless had a tank lining that's been in there ten years, ithas now decided to melt with all sorts of issues,

Started off last summer with strange running issues, First issue was it wouldn't tickle up a couple of times so I replaced float needle and all was fine.

Never thought any more about it, Thenpour old G3 throttle stuck wide open for a few seconds coming out of a roundabout,

Not good on a single with no igntion switch or cut out, pulling in the decompressor at high "LOL" revs don't do alot, eak!

So back to base for a carb clean, it was full of sticky snot, thought to myself must have swallowed something nasty

Then it did it again, same place funny enougth, so time for a proper examination,

Both taps gummed up to a trickle (Matchless only uses petrol at a drip a month so),

The carb full of sticky snotty deposits again, float needle would stay up on its own etc etc.

Since then I've dried tank out, been only using Shell Opitmate, seems to be ok,

I'm now draining fuel if its going to be long time between rides, a bl**dy pain...

But the Biggest thing here is the Dangerous position it has put me in twice now,

Hay Ho,

G

Previously wrote:

I'm seeing issues now, biggest problem is finding out who has what in their petrol, supermarket brandsare using Ethanol asfar as I can make out, Tesco's premium is the worst (Ethanol can help boost Octane seemingly) so if you think you're giving the old Commando a treat think again!

Ethanol is a killer for fibreglass tanks, older rubber hoses , some plastics and cork used in seals in old petrol taps. This is a (another) downside of the green lobby and actually another con by govenments and oil companies. At the moment in the uK weare limited to a maximum of5%in our petrol but going up to 10% next year, thats when the real trouble starts. Ethanoldoes not have the same explosive effect as petrol (to put it simply) so your gallon of petrol / ethanol mix will propel your bike or car less than the equivalent pure petrol, thus you use more petrol, great isn't it. also it will potentially cause havoc with old fuel systems.

A good sealer (look to America for advice they have been suffering 10% or E10 as its called ethanol issues for a while) will help and you may have to renew some hoses. Its a suck it and see job just like valve seat reccessionwith the advent of unleaded but be prepared to have more fuel/ carburetter problems in the future.

Oh and make sure theres no water in your fuel system, it helps separate the ethanol from the petrol and since its heavier it will be the nearest to the petrol tap!

Happy days just because the lunatics are running the asylum!

Hello Gino - Yes I agree with your comments! There's more loonies in this government than ever ? I suggest all you guys take a look atwww.fbhvc.co.uk and you'll see what's going on and they have the tips too to get your bike right? Yours anna J dixon

I have a 1971 Roadster with fibreglass tank, which I have had to repair using epoxy a few times now to fix minor weeps. I have always run on Shell Optimax or V power. The fuel has not given any problem until recently, when after noticing that there were various internet posts about Ethanol being introduced to V power, I looked at the fuel in my tank. It was brown, so I drained the tank, and started looking at possible solutions to stop the Ethanol damaging my tank.

Steel tank, after painting and VAT would be about £500, soa good incentive to find an alternative.

There is much comment on the internet about some tank treatments not working, and some are not suitable for fibreglass tanks anyway. Treatments originating in the USA should work, since they have had Ethanol in their fuel in many, if not all states, for some time now. I found Sureseal from Tank Care Products in Norwich, which looked very promising. I also looked for industrial coatings to do the same job, and found Sigma coatings, part of PPG. I discovered that the Sigma Novaguard 890 product data sheet had a remarkable similarity to the TCS Sureseal datasheet (~ identical). The first descriptive words on the Novaguard 890 brochure (http://www.sigmacoatings.com/protective/downloads/00_B111.pdf) state:

NovaGuard 890 has no limitation to the amount of (bio)ethanol present gasoline blends, providing maximum storage flexibility.

NovaGuard 890 has no limitation to the amount of (bio)ethanol present gasoline blends, providing maximum storage flexibility.

If it is good enough for industrial use with that claim, then I am convinced. For the Novaguard 890 data sheet go to www.sigmacoatings.com, Industrial coatings, Technical information, Novaguard 890.

The product is a form of Phenolic Epoxy resin, and with all such materials cleanliness is essential, or they will not adhere. TCS sell two tank preparation products, both of which I shall use, after I have cleaned my tank a number of times (minimum three)with hot soapy water, and rinsed it with clean hot waterat least anequal number of times. With Epoxy, cleanliness is next to Godliness. It would also be useful to be able to rough up the inner surface of the tank, but I haven't worked out how to do this yet. Sharp gravel and a cement mixer?

Incidentally, I expect that all pump fuel in the UK now has 5% Ethanol in it, and that percentage is likely to increase to 10% in 2013. So we are all stuck with Ethanol, unless one uses Avgas 100LL, which will never have Ethanol in it since the latter is prohibited in Aviation fuel. Commandos love the Octane, the plugs dislike the lead, and its use is illegal on the road.

Now all I need is new carbs!

Ian Hey

Previously wrote:

Hi Ian, how have you got on with coating the tank? I have recently bought a 69 Fastback which has a fibreglass tank & I am currently researching for the best option on internally coating it due to the ethanol. Seems there is good & bad stories to every option be it Caswell, Tank care, Petroseal etc etc

Maybe you can let me know how you got on.

Many thanks,

Martin.

I have a 1971 Roadster with fibreglass tank, which I have had to repair using epoxy a few times now to fix minor weeps. I have always run on Shell Optimax or V power. The fuel has not given any problem until recently, when after noticing that there were various internet posts about Ethanol being introduced to V power, I looked at the fuel in my tank. It was brown, so I drained the tank, and started looking at possible solutions to stop the Ethanol damaging my tank.

Steel tank, after painting and VAT would be about £500, soa good incentive to find an alternative.

There is much comment on the internet about some tank treatments not working, and some are not suitable for fibreglass tanks anyway. Treatments originating in the USA should work, since they have had Ethanol in their fuel in many, if not all states, for some time now. I found Sureseal from Tank Care Products in Norwich, which looked very promising. I also looked for industrial coatings to do the same job, and found Sigma coatings, part of PPG. I discovered that the Sigma Novaguard 890 product data sheet had a remarkable similarity to the TCS Sureseal datasheet (~ identical). The first descriptive words on the Novaguard 890 brochure (http://www.sigmacoatings.com/protective/downloads/00_B111.pdf) state:

NovaGuard 890 has no limitation to the amount of (bio)ethanol present gasoline blends, providing maximum storage flexibility.

NovaGuard 890 has no limitation to the amount of (bio)ethanol present gasoline blends, providing maximum storage flexibility.

If it is good enough for industrial use with that claim, then I am convinced. For the Novaguard 890 data sheet go to www.sigmacoatings.com, Industrial coatings, Technical information, Novaguard 890.

The product is a form of Phenolic Epoxy resin, and with all such materials cleanliness is essential, or they will not adhere. TCS sell two tank preparation products, both of which I shall use, after I have cleaned my tank a number of times (minimum three)with hot soapy water, and rinsed it with clean hot waterat least anequal number of times. With Epoxy, cleanliness is next to Godliness. It would also be useful to be able to rough up the inner surface of the tank, but I haven't worked out how to do this yet. Sharp gravel and a cement mixer?

Incidentally, I expect that all pump fuel in the UK now has 5% Ethanol in it, and that percentage is likely to increase to 10% in 2013. So we are all stuck with Ethanol, unless one uses Avgas 100LL, which will never have Ethanol in it since the latter is prohibited in Aviation fuel. Commandos love the Octane, the plugs dislike the lead, and its use is illegal on the road.

Now all I need is new carbs!

Ian Hey

Hi Everyone,

Just thought I'd comment on my opinion of ethanol, I have just completed the renovation of my 1972 Commando, this has a fibreglass tank and I intend using it without any sealent. It is clean and shiny inside. Before putting the tank on the bike I filled it up with standard unleaded which would have 5% ethanol, inside and left for a couple of weeks just to ensure there were no leaks from the tap seals or anywhere else, I then drained off to find the petrol nice and clean and the inside of the tank still shiny and hard. I just wonder if the trouble a lot of people are having is partly due to the inside of the tank being contaminated due to years of use and that the ethanol is loosening this contamination causing the problems.

As far as I am aware, fibre glass tanks should be ethanol proof anyway and ethanol should not be as aggresive as some are making out. I think as long as the inside of the tank is clean, free of contamination and the finish is not compromised then there should not be any problems. So over the course of this year I shall fill my tank as normal and priodically drain the carbs to check the condition of the petrol, if I have any problems or not as the case might be,I will post an update.

I am also running my newly renovated engine on classic 20/50 multigrade, some people insist on using 50w monograde, I dont think this is necessary, even the original Commado handbook recommends 20/50 multigrade. I would notrecommend sythetic and semi synthetic oils as these are designed for more modern engines with closer tolarances but a classic mineral 20/50 should be OK with Commando engines, Just a thought.

Cheers, Paul.

Hi Everyone,

Just thought I'd comment on my opinion of ethanol, I have just completed the renovation of my 1972 Commando, this has a fibreglass tank and I intend using it without any sealent. It is clean and shiny inside. Before putting the tank on the bike I filled it up with standard unleaded which would have 5% ethanol, inside and left for a couple of weeks just to ensure there were no leaks from the tap seals or anywhere else, I then drained off to find the petrol nice and clean and the inside of the tank still shiny and hard. I just wonder if the trouble a lot of people are having is partly due to the inside of the tank being contaminated due to years of use and that the ethanol is loosening this contamination causing the problems.

As far as I am aware, fibre glass tanks should be ethanol proof anyway and ethanol should not be as aggresive as some are making out. I think as long as the inside of the tank is clean, free of contamination and the finish is not compromised then there should not be any problems. So over the course of this year I shall fill my tank as normal and priodically drain the carbs to check the condition of the petrol, if I have any problems or not as the case might be,I will post an update.

I am also running my newly renovated engine on classic 20/50 multigrade, some people insist on using 50w monograde, I dont think this is necessary, even the original Commado handbook recommends 20/50 multigrade. I would notrecommend sythetic and semi synthetic oils as these are designed for more modern engines with closer tolarances but a classic mineral 20/50 should be OK with Commando engines, Just a thought.

Cheers, Paul.

Fuel with ethanol is much more electricly active and corrosion more likely. Soldered floats will fall appart ,brass parts will corrode. Corks in taps will leak. Fuel filler pipes on cars will dissove dumping gallons of petrol on the forecourt. This happened to my Mercedes.Drain off fuel if not in use. Diesels will have problems with mould growth in the tanks and dissolving injection pump seals,This happened to my Transit.Its all going on NOW!!.We are all being led into chaos. We need green fuels ,but we also need to be able to buy alternative fuels to avoid scrapping a third of the vehicles that are in use today.

Like Paul Goring i was an ethanol sceptic, until this year. !!

About 10yrs ago I built a Triumph 650 Metisse for classic scrambling, with a fibreglass fuel tank. All has been well apart from a minor fuel leak from the fuel tap over the last few years. The bike was last raced about Sept 2012 and I then drained the tank as I knew the next race would not be until May this year. I always use Shell Ultimate for this bike, and refuelled it about a week before the meeting. It started perfectly, as usual, but I found that the fuel tap was very stiff and had to be turned off with pliers ! Solution, replace the tap, easy. I removed the tank, drained it and applied a spanner to the securing nut. THE WHOLE DAMN LOT CAME AWAY from the bottom of the tank, boss and all, and I now have a gaping hole in the base of the tank. I can only assume that there was a dribble left in the bottom of the tank which ate away at it over winter. The surrounding fibreglass is soft and spongy and will have to be cut out and re glassed before being re-cut for the tap fixing. However, on speaking to other riders the only sensible solution was to buy an alloy replica tank at great expense. But i wont have the same problem again. Damn stuff

Demand Ethanol free, E0 petrol, it is the only way. Don't give in to that big Green monster!

Maybe it would be worth investigating the fitting of a butyl rubber bag liner inside the petrol tank. Many helicopters have this type of liner fitted within the fuselage. It could be fitted by removing a part of the base of the tank that could be screwed back into position. The filler cap and tap fittings would be bonded into the moulding. If and when it deteriorates just replace the liner. The liners may take up some capacity but at least they won't leak and would afford some crash protection also.

Maybe someone in the club should investigate this and spend some of the club's wedge on a soloution.

Time to "man up" dry your eyes and deal with the problem cause it aint going away..............Did we really put a man on the moon?

A national regular supply of Ethanol free petrol (EO) is not difficult if there is a political will. It just means that if the government can't get enough wind turbines put up they can meet their renewable target by contaminatingmore petrol and diesel with Ethanol and Palm oil respectively. Don't lay down and let your Norton take it!

Previously neil_wyatt wrote:

A national regular supply of Ethanol free petrol (EO) is not difficult if there is a political will. It just means that if the government can't get enough wind turbines put up they can meet their renewable target by contaminatingmore petrol and diesel with Ethanol and Palm oil respectively. Don't lay down and let your Norton take it!

Greetings Norton Owners,

Well I have also had some interesting experiences with Ethanol here in Australia. While I always try to use BP Ultimate (98 octane) in all my historic bikes, there have been interesting recent developments regarding elastomer compatibility and the dreaded âgreenâ fuel. One experience will (hopefully) be dealt with an article submitted for the August RoadHolder but this particular incident was not all Ethanol related, as I believe this particular fault was accelerated by vibration. Unfortunately, without the backing of a research house and robust FMEA protocols, I can only consider the damage caused as âconjecture.â

After searching high and low, the only fuel hose I could get a WRITTEN specification regarding Ethanol âComplianceâ was marine grade, its grey and expensive, but has a warranty. I also fitted two âStay-Upâ Amal float kits.

Sorry to drift off topic, but I have also recently repaired my original 1974 Interstate MkIIA fuel tank with a magnificent POR product. You will have to contact the manufacturer regarding Glass-fiber repair capability, but believe the Caswell product is OK with glass.

http://www.por15.com/HEAVY-DUTY-CYCLE-TANK-REPAIR-KIT_p_60.html

This particular kit also includes the correct chemicals for removing a failed liner!

Fortunately I did not need this additional chemical, as my tank was unlined. So purchased a standard kit off the shelf in Adelaide ($55.00). I am sure the Caswell product is also OK and as I understand it, recommended by a tractor manufacturer based in Milwaukee

However I was shocked and horrified at all the Krud that emanated from the tank post cleaning process! It looked clean to meâ?

Note: Very important to DRY the tank out completely prior to liner / coating application. I choose a nice day, 30Ë C + and carefully used a hot air gun. This tank had previously restored and has very nice paint. Consequently did not want any damage. Exceptional care was used to wrap all paintwork & mask with plastic. Purchased a couple of ? â BSP SS plugs from the usual hydraulic supplier to keep threads clear & blank off the fuel tap holes.

Then just followed the instructions and hand painted the fuel cap area once the stuff started to cure. That was over 18 months ago and no problems since. This material sets like Flint and I ran a tap through the fuel tap threads once 100% cured, material cut like Devcon Titanium putty!

Good luck and herewith photos.

Stay Upright!

Rgds Steve