Carb needle for 99

Previously neil_wyatt wrote:

OK John but most riders following this thread would like to see a successful conclusion before being closed down. That's all.

I agree, I think it is not productive this 'where can we get E-free fuel', 'who has the last tin of Redex'' stuff, I'm only 48 and I hope to be riding my bikes another 20 years at least, we need to find out how to run our bikes on whats going to be available, and the most mmediate part of that for me is a plug which will resist fouling long enough to set up the carburation on a rebuilt bike, Anna, I have received the plugs you recommended, if they suit your Manxman, can I assume that it hardness they are roughly equivalent to an N3?

Cheers, Niall

Previously neil_wyatt wrote:

OK John but most riders following this thread would like to see a successful conclusion before being closed down. That's all.

I agree, I think it is not productive this 'where can we get E-free fuel', 'who has the last tin of Redex'' stuff, I'm only 48 and I hope to be riding my bikes another 20 years at least, we need to find out how to run our bikes on whats going to be available, and the most mmediate part of that for me is a plug which will resist fouling long enough to set up the carburation on a rebuilt bike, Anna, I have received the plugs you recommended, if they suit your Manxman, can I assume that it hardness they are roughly equivalent to an N3?

Cheers, Niall

yes ok for motorway running , but the model 99 ran best on N5 or equivalent to them like w8dtc from Bosch and a Amal 376/67. set up right yours anna j

I have just bought 2 sets of these Bosch plugs for my single carb'd 650SS. The W8DTC is supposed to be equivalent to the N5, or NGK B7ES, while the W7DTC is supposed to be the equivalent of the N4, which were recommended by Norton for the SS models. The N3 doesn't seem too come up anywhere that I can see; too hot.....

The Green Plug Co. say that the Bosch cover a wider heat range anyway, so, as Anna says, the W8DTC should be ok, unless you thrash it a lot, like I do!

If it is equivalent to the N5, great, then it is also suitable for the Model 50, in which I shall try it out as soon as the very srong winds outside have abated. As Neil wrote, my 350 had wonderful carburation too, for many thousands of miles, on 4 Star and LRP.Itook it off the road for a tidy up, which became a major rebuild, which finished up taking several years as other projects intervened, and when I recently returned it to the road the carburation was a mile out, it required the needle dropping one notch and the slide cutaway increasing from 3 to 4, and the rich running which necessitated this claimed 5 new plugs, maybe a couple more yet. I cannot see what else has changed in the intervening period except for the fuel itself. I shall switch to BP Ultimate until I have the carburation sorted out at least, but I cannot help but feel, having seen 5 Star, then Two and Three star, then Four Star, then LRPall disappear, that it will only be a short while until there is no E-free fuel available, and that we will all have to cope with E10 or more.

This subject has reminded me of an excellent book 'I was a Kamikaze' by Ryujo Nagatsuka, part of which tells of the struggles in a blockaded Japan of the Air Force strugglling with a Petrol/Methanol mix called A-Go, it so reduced the performance of their fighter aircraft that they only got one pass at the B29 formations because they could not catch them for a second one. However what concerned the pilotsmore was the number of crashes due engine failure from plug fouling,....perhaps we should have seen this coming.

I have just bought 2 sets of these Bosch plugs for my single carb'd 650SS. The W8DTC is supposed to be equivalent to the N5, or NGK B7ES, while the W7DTC is supposed to be the equivalent of the N4, which were recommended by Norton for the SS models. The N3 doesn't seem too come up anywhere that I can see; too hot.....

The Green Plug Co. say that the Bosch cover a wider heat range anyway, so, as Anna says, the W8DTC should be ok, unless you thrash it a lot, like I do!

well tell ever one how they are for you and if thay work ok in your bike, I find they work really good, and seam too get more MPG with them so do check this out as well , I feel you like them as you find that starting is more easier than before , and running is much better too my tick over so good you can near count the firing order, anyway see what you make of them Yours Anna J

With regard to my Model 50 and its excellent carburration etc: I should have mentioned that there was a blip (Same problem with my ES2) I had running problems in Spring 2007 after a fill up with Tesco Super unleaded. Then I noticed my Petsealhad become all tacky at the next fill up. I contacted the man at Autocycle Engineering, who I bought the Petseal from and he suggested relining the tank as the new petseal would stick to the old.

None of us knew about Ethanol at this stage, even the manufacturerof petseal. Thanks stakeholder FBHVC for keeping quiet, (not!) And Ministry for Transport etc...Even lost some paint on my ES2 tank.

So, now I had two lots of petsealin my tank all dissolving and going into the combustion. I'm surprised it kept running. See link, the Petsealfilled a Tescocarrier bag, ironically!

In 2008 the rabbit was out of the hat and the stealth move to add Ethanol to petrol was in the public domain. I managed to get a carrier bag of Petsealout of my Model 50 tank while it was still soft, not using any sealantthereafter on this bike and my ES2. Carb strips were necessary and new fuel hoses but this restored normal service.

From that point I only used 4* leaded until a couple of years ago due to supply when BP Ultimate with RedX 4* lead treatment was / is used and no fuel issues since.

Sorry,

Link with a photo of a Tesco bag of used petseal was too big.

All very true Robert, hence my campaign via the VMCC to bring the FBHVC to book. For the last 3 months the VMCC journal has gone quiet on the Ethanol subject. I would urge riders to lobby their MP's. Like the withdrawal of a decent light bulb, we are finding our choices taken away from us for nothing more than meeting government targets. And for what? My own Tory back bench MP is toeing the government line, so no support there.

The FBHVC recently estimated the historic vehicle industry to be worth £4.5 Billion but with its biggest threat since rust, that must be revised down, very sadly.

This year I have had people using supermarket petrol with the anti Ethanol additive, thinking they were safe; call me to say their tanksealant has gone soft and pipe perished.

I did some research and found generally that all super market petrol contains Ethanol and certainly with regard to the standard 95 RON they do not contain any additives to reduce wear etc. It is basic petrol with 5% Ethanol. 10% with a warning sticker to come.

If 10% Ethanol may damage your engine then logically, 5% might half damage it. Like half a cyanide pill might half kill you?

Looking FWD to a successful outcome to your carb settings Robert and my anti Ethanol campaign, both for freedom of choice and the healthy future of our Norton's.

That ethanol containing petrol (gasoline) is a problem with tanks sealed with some materials andt you may well need to change your fuel lines, but I know no reason why it should be bad for engines. We used to seek out Cleveland 25% alcohol fuel in the 1950's because it was highly rated.I have seen no scientific evidence that E5 or E10 is bad for engines. There does seem to be a lot of paranoia about!

That ethanol containing petrol (gasoline) is a problem with tanks sealed with some materials andt you may well need to change your fuel lines, but I know no reason why it should be bad for engines. We used to seek out Cleveland 25% alcohol fuel in the 1950's because it was highly rated.I have seen no scientific evidence that E5 or E10 is bad for engines. There does seem to be a lot of paranoia about!

well Charles there is a big difference as the 1950s to 1970S Cleveland and National Benzene these where made from coal tars and distilled to make alcohol benzine fuel , where as this new stuff it made from parm cornels and sugar cane, that why you get a stick mess in your tank some times and it de-soloves rubbers some plastics and some alloys too and fiber glass tanks as well , so there you are, check out the FBHVC web site it tells you on there, all about it, yours anna j

Charles, Anna is is quite right, the Ethanol in our petrol is also a solvent. I found out to my cost that it will even strip paint!

And why didn't the FBHVCwarn us before 2008, since they knew of the problems? They told me there were few complaints. I can see this as there are many letters to classic magazines and the VMCC not even published.. I know because some opf them were mine.

But given that this stuff is only added at the distribution point, directly before delivery from a sealed tanker; then surely it shouldn't be too difficult to allow some petrol tankers through without adding Ethanol and marked up at the pump E0 or BS 70/70 in the UK. The only reason most add the stuff is to meet government targets. I wonder what the subsidies are to use this stuff?

One thing we can do is to make it worthwhile for BP to leave Ethanol out of their Ultimate.

Hope Robert gets his carb settings right using Ultimate, very soon.

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously charles_bovington wrote:

That ethanol containing petrol (gasoline) is a problem with tanks sealed with some materials and you may well need to change your fuel lines, but I know no reason why it should be bad for engines. We used to seek out Cleveland 25% alcohol fuel in the 1950's because it was highly rated.I have seen no scientific evidence that E5 or E10 is bad for engines. There does seem to be a lot of paranoia about!

well Charles there is a big difference as the 1950s to 1970S Cleveland and National Benzene these where made from coal tars and distilled to make alcohol benzine fuel , where as this new stuff it made from parm cornels and sugar cane, that why you get a stick mess in your tank some times and it de-soloves rubbers some plastics and some alloys too and fiber glass tanks as well , so there you are, check out the FBHVC web site it tells you on there, all about it, yours anna j

Clevland discol was a mixture of gasoline and ethanol and produced in 5 grades containing various levels of ethanol. It is not to be confused with National Benzol mixture which contained products ( benzene and toluene) of coal tar distillation. Both the alcohol and the coal tar products served to increase octane rating ( anti-knock) and were an alternative to the Tetra Ethyl Lead whose use is now banned.

The source of the alcohol is irrelevant, it is still C2H5OH.

Yes it is a problem if your tank had been sealed with Petseal and some plastic fuel hoses may not like it, but engines don't mind.

I have read the FBHVC web site on the issue of ethanol containing fuels and can't see anything to justify your concerns.

Charles, what about the fibreglass tanks that weren't melted with Cleveland Discol, or the hoses for that matter. The current Ethanol will even strip paint, I and others can tell you.

At a car show, two years ago, there were two men demonstrating stripping down Morris 1000 engines that were recently taken off the road. One of the things they pointed out was damage to the valves, they said it was consistent with Ethanol use.

Now the point is that if you pick up a tankful of E5 on a run, (petseal excepted) and fill up with E0 when almost empty at the end then I doubt there would be much of an issue apart from possible paint damage if spilt.

The problem is leaving it in your tank, carb and pipes, petrol tap corks etc for a duration. (Then there is the risk also of phase separation and that WILL wreck an engine) This is the problem if no E0 can be found or not allowed to exist. In the UK, a tiny amount of 4* leaded, BS 40/40 can be produced still but this last two years appears impossible to find.

Just allow a nationwide distribution of E0 petrol for vehicles not suitable to Ethanol use and the job is done. Forcing it on everyone, like stupid dim light bulbs is just not on. I found plenty of E0petrol in the US of A last year. What about our freedom of choice here or are daft targets more important? Stand up and be counted......

Previously neil_wyatt wrote:

Charles, what about the fibreglass tanks that weren't melted with Cleveland Discol, or the hoses for that matter. The current Ethanol will even strip paint, I and others can tell you.

At a car show, two years ago, there were two men demonstrating stripping down Morris 1000 engines that were recently taken off the road. One of the things they pointed out was damage to the valves, they said it was consistent with Ethanol use.

Now the point is that if you pick up a tankful of E5 on a run, (petseal excepted) and fill up with E0 when almost empty at the end then I doubt there would be much of an issue apart from possible paint damage if spilt.

The problem is leaving it in your tank, carb and pipes, petrol tap corks etc for a duration. (Then there is the risk also of phase separation and that WILL wreck an engine) This is the problem if no E0 can be found or not allowed to exist. In the UK, a tiny amount of 4* leaded, BS 40/40 can be produced still but this last two years appears impossible to find.

Just allow a nationwide distribution of E0 petrol for vehicles not suitable to Ethanol use and the job is done. Forcing it on everyone, like stupid dim light bulbs is just not on. I found plenty of E0petrol in the US of A last year. What about our freedom of choice here or are daft targets more important? Stand up and be counted......

Dear Neil,

Phase separation, that is water forming a second layer in a fuel tank generally only occurs when liquid water as opposed to water vapour is introduced into the fuel. For condensation due to humidity and temperature change inside the fuel tank to occur you need about 200 gallons of air for each gallon of fuel. Also the rate of adsorption of water vapour is very slow and would need about 2 years of exposure to achieve saturation.

In theory, there could be problems with petroil fueeld 2 strokes, but 4 stroke engines are very unlikely to experience difficulties. Yes some GRP tanks, illegal since 1978, can have severe problems Ian Murdoch in the Commando section recommended Caswells GTS1750 as a solution.

With regard to valve damage due to ethanol in fuel, I would like to know how it was diagnosed. Our MG midget runs without problems as do those of others in our village to say nothing about the Morris Minor.

When unleaded gasoline came out there were claims of widespread valve recession and Engine manufacturers spent fortunes trying to reproduce this phenomena. Only BMC A series engines were able to recess valves and then only if driven under very very atypical conditions.

If you are convinced that water in fuel is a problem for you, then go down to your garden equipment seller and get some Briggs and Stratton fuel additive. It is cheap and will treat a large quantity of fuel.

Ref. David Korotney, report to fuel studies and standards branch of the us environmental protection agency, 1995

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously charles_bovington wrote:

That ethanol containing petrol (gasoline) is a problem with tanks sealed with some materials andt you may well need to change your fuel lines, but I know no reason why it should be bad for engines. We used to seek out Cleveland 25% alcohol fuel in the 1950's because it was highly rated.I have seen no scientific evidence that E5 or E10 is bad for engines. There does seem to be a lot of paranoia about!

well Charles there is a big difference as the 1950s to 1970S Cleveland and National Benzene these where made from coal tars and distilled to make alcohol benzine fuel , where as this new stuff it made from parm cornels and sugar cane, that why you get a stick mess in your tank some times and it de-soloves rubbers some plastics and some alloys too and fiber glass tanks as well , so there you are, check out the FBHVC web site it tells you on there, all about it, yours anna j

Hi All,

while we're taking this nostalgia trip down Fuel Memory Lane, who remembers the ICI Petrol-that-wasn't-Petrol?

I remember that it smelled funny and engines seemed to run very cool with it, it was said to be made from Petro-Chemical by-products that would otherwise have been flared off, possibly the same toxic aromatics that were later sold to us as 'Green' unleaded fuel, anybody know what it was?

Niall, my Dad used to buy it every so often, he said it was made from coal. But I don't recall any melting and paint stripping issues, as with this Ethanol.

Charles, Roger Parker has written quite a bit on the dangers of Ethanol in 'Enjoying MG' magazine. With regard to phase separation, his advise is to fill the tank before laying up, say for the winter and place cling film or equivalent under the vented filler cap. Yes phase separation can happen, more likely in a car that is less likely to be rocked about .

There are several reports of Ethanol attacks in roadholder. One example is Mr Horsefield's Commando freshly painted tank. (Roadholder April 2013) A few spilt drops blistered the laquer.

Charles, if you want ethanol in your fuel, just visit your local Tesco. Outside of SW England there is still BP Ultimate, at least for now offering E0..

Why suffer these issues when E0 eliminates them. Simples!

The Ethanol problem is not going away and very soon will actually get far worse when the EU force all fuel suppliers to make their products to E10 standard to help cut down on imported oil.

2 years ago, I watched the fibreglass tank, on my Dommie cafe racer, disolve inside a month after filling up with 'leaded' 4 star obtained from one of the few suppliers still around. Then I discovered the fuel tubing melting on my Commando followed by the internals of its previously excellent SU carb. All caused by the Ethanol in the fuel supplied by my local garages.The expense of trying to overcome these problems with tank linings and fuel additives ran into hundreds of pounds. Then I came across an item called a 'fuel cat' which you just dump inside the petrol tank. OK it cost about £20 but, from then on, it saved me buying bottles of lead sub and octane booster. Which were costing around £5 a pot and only lasting 2 tankfuls.

Like many people, I was quite sceptical of its claimed qualities but wasamazed to find that it actually worked. I now get smoother running, no fouled plugs, no Ethanol related problems and can leave my bikes stored and use them months later without the fuel having gone stale.

Returning to the plug issue mentioned at the top of this thread. My Magneto fired 99 ran very well (for 30 years) on Champion N5s which were replaced every 20,000 miles. I tried NGK plugs for a while but must have used the wrong grade as they would always run ok for about 1000 miles then suddenly die. My Atlas used electronic ignition and ran brilliantly on Champion N4 or NKG BP7ES. When I popped a Commando head on the barrels it also ran well with Champion N7Y plugs. Nobody has ever explained, to me, why a 99 can not use N7Y plugs???

Hi Neil,

Firstly apologies to the webmaster - maybe this should be a new thread.

I take it you are in the MGOC. I have three MGBs - a 1963, a 1964 and a 1972 GT as well as three lightweight Nortons At the end of the season I disconnect the rubber fuel pipe at the carbs, on the MGs and drain the fuel into a can - simply switch on the ignition and the electric fuel pump will empty the tank in a short time.. It's even easier to drain the Nortons. Put the batteries on charge over the winter.

Then fill with fresh fuel and octane booster at the start of the year. I use the old fuel in the lawn mower which seems to run on anything.

Yes I agree that ethanol does cause some aggravation. I have changed all old rubber pipes/seals for modern items which wasn't a big job. The Nortons have the old copper floats in the carbs and they seem to cope without problems. Yes it definitely does dissolve Petseal -first hand experience of this - but modern tank liner seems to cope OK. Petrol splashes always did damage paintwork so that's not entirely new.

Surely the reason for ethanol in fuel is the necessity to find an alternative fuel to traditional mineral oil fuels. Way back in the 1980's we were told that the world supply of oil would run out by the year 2000 and we would have to limit the use of internal combustion engines. So what is the up to date position - is world oil supply now plentiful ?

Patrick.

Hi All,

As for N7Y plugs, leaving aside the Ethanol question, you can use them, I have used N9Y Mini plugs, but they don't last long because they are unable to conduct enough heat out and the electrodes recede quite quickly, that is why we need a harder plug like an N4C, if you just poodled about they would probably last a good while, and will start easier too.

As for the ICI petrol, no it didn't attack tanks O rings etc, and it was excellent fuel, my friend had a Rover 105S which would pink on anything but 5-Star, but it ran sweet as a nut on ICI 4-star, when they stopped selling ICI petrol he filled it up one last time and put it in the paper!

As for the ''we can still get E-free fuel, why worry?' argument, thats fine for now, but we will be lucky if its still available in 2 years, and I for one, will still be riding then.

Does anyone know of anywhere still selling the Bayford 4 Star? The last one in Lancashire stopped about7 years ago, the last time I got any was in Chesterfield about 4 years back, why did it stop, was it lack of sales?

I use the Fuel Cat in my Velocette and it works, insofar as preventing pre-ignition and fuel degradation in the tank.

I still think that the plug fouling problem is due to some additive, probably a metallic compound, rather than the Ethanol itself, it may even be that the tank liner/O ring/float destruction is not due to Ethanol itself, but something else that the oil companies are dumping in it and allowing us the privilege of paying for.

I met a Petrol-Chemical engineer once who told me that unleaded petrol was the biggest commercial con trick in history, that the oil companies used it as a way of selling to the public stuff that was so toxic that you couldn't even get a licence to store it, and that the sheer brilliance of it was that they got the Green Movement to campaign for it on their behalf! Because of this I cannot help but wonder what they are mixing in to these fuels, because as others have already stated, the alcohol based fuels of the past did not have these dramatic side-effects.

We will have no choice but to pay for whatever they dish up, I do hope that we will still be able to get some kind of fuel that our bikes can digest, if people think it fanciful, the Steam locomotive movement are wondering where they will get Steam Coal from once the current stocks have gone, whoever thought that it would be lack of coal that would finally kill them off, in a country that had 400 years worth of minable coal, now mostly unextractable.

well to night our chairman Harry Atkinson as received his Bosch W 8DTC plugs He then put down what he as experienced with them while in uses , you know my thoughts now as for Ethanol taking paint of your tank its happend too me on filling up , and I ended up repainting the tank then on ebay I found the spray can of lacquer thats ANTI- Ethanol lacquer so I got some And give it a try out its now two years have past and the paint work is still like the day it was done, so the lacquer works very well indeed But cannot remember what make it was, so I have to have a look on my computer to see if I save it to folder , let you know later on , yours Anna J

Previously Niall Topping wrote:

Hi All,

As for N7Y plugs, leaving aside the Ethanol question, you can use them, I have used N9Y Mini plugs, but they don't last long because they are unable to conduct enough heat out and the electrodes recede quite quickly, that is why we need a harder plug like an N4C, if you just poodled about they would probably last a good while, and will start easier too.

As for the ICI petrol, no it didn't attack tanks O rings etc, and it was excellent fuel, my friend had a Rover 105S which would pink on anything but 5-Star, but it ran sweet as a nut on ICI 4-star, when they stopped selling ICI petrol he filled it up one last time and put it in the paper!

As for the ''we can still get E-free fuel, why worry?' argument, thats fine for now, but we will be lucky if its still available in 2 years, and I for one, will still be riding then.

Does anyone know of anywhere still selling the Bayford 4 Star? The last one in Lancashire stopped about7 years ago, the last time I got any was in Chesterfield about 4 years back, why did it stop, was it lack of sales?

I use the Fuel Cat in my Velocette and it works, insofar as preventing pre-ignition and fuel degradation in the tank.

I still think that the plug fouling problem is due to some additive, probably a metallic compound, rather than the Ethanol itself, it may even be that the tank liner/O ring/float destruction is not due to Ethanol itself, but something else that the oil companies are dumping in it and allowing us the privilege of paying for.

I met a Petrol-Chemical engineer once who told me that unleaded petrol was the biggest commercial con trick in history, that the oil companies used it as a way of selling to the public stuff that was so toxic that you couldn't even get a licence to store it, and that the sheer brilliance of it was that they got the Green Movement to campaign for it on their behalf! Because of this I cannot help but wonder what they are mixing in to these fuels, because as others have already stated, the alcohol based fuels of the past did not have these dramatic side-effects.

We will have no choice but to pay for whatever they dish up, I do hope that we will still be able to get some kind of fuel that our bikes can digest, if people think it fanciful, the Steam locomotive movement are wondering where they will get Steam Coal from once the current stocks have gone, whoever thought that it would be lack of coal that would finally kill them off, in a country that had 400 years worth of minable coal, now mostly unextractable.

Dear Niall,

Your Petro Chemical engineer was either misinformed or from another planet. Tetra Ethyl Lead, co-invented by the worlds largest oil company and the worlds largest auto manufacture, is the really toxic stuff both to produce and to store.

The development of modern lead free petrol was a costly pain in the neck for the oil companies and was driven by environmental regulations of emissions which required the phasing out of TEL in petrol because it poisons the 3-way catalysts used to meet these emissions standards. The initial octane booster was tertiary butyl methyl ether which in turn was found to be a toxic hazard and thus has been replaces by Ethanol . No conspiracy, just lots of expense for the oil companies. Lots of happy farmers profiting from the need for feedstock for ethanol production.

Incidentally, the ICI petrol was synthesized from Coal by processes also used by Germany in WW2 and by SASOL in South Africa during the boycott years. It was blended with TEL and was a high quality product, but was expensive to produce.

This has turned out to be one of the most interesting threads I have read and in a way it will be sad to conclude it when Robert reports back with his 'Ultimate' carb settings. Until then I thought I'd add to and in some cases subtract from what is already said here.

First, Charles: The conspiracy with current Ethanol fuelis that it was introduced by stealth. Our stake holders the FBHVCwould have been aware of its introduction but kept quiet. The problems that this has caused to many did not happen with previous fuels. Appreciated that tank sealants are something withinthe last 30 years but consider all of the other failures, including modern plastic tanks. Yes Leaded fuel was a hazard and I believe its inventor died from lead poisoning. However, I'm not aware of it damaging motor parts or aggressively attacking paint work likeE5. 4 Star Leaded should be made to BS 40/40 and not contain Ethanol. There is a standard for unleaded petrol with zero Ethanol, that is BS 70/70. What kind of a standard is EN228? Agreed that ICI petrol was made from coal and was indeed good stuff that again caused none of the problems that Ethanol causes. The advert used to say:ICI, 'That's my petrol.' As for the catalytic converters, these were developed to turn harmful Co (Carbon monoxide) into relatively harmless (DfT words not mine) Co2 (Carbon dioxide) The next trick was then to tax vehicles not on weight, engine size or horse power but Co2 emissions. The latest EU scam is to limit vacuum cleaners to 1,600 watts to stop global warming, I askyou as I write waiting for this mercury filled light bulb to warm up enough to allow me to see.

Why are we using Ethanol, when clearly BP Ultimate is fine without it? It is because the government have a target of 15% renewables by 2020, as set down in the Ed MilibandClimate Change Act of 2008. Currently there are too many objections to wind turbines and solar energy and so increasing the level of bio in fuels is a way of getting closer to their renewables target, currently around 5%. Remember, all of this is political, not scientific.

I have listened to some riders say that Ethanol is here to stay. Well not necessarily. In the USA there is a choice and some States have actually opposed having Ethanol but it is certainly not forced on the people. Since the US shale gas bonanza the bottom has dropped out of the Ethanol market and the writing is on the wall. With starving people all over the world and growing populations, land for food rather than fuel is the current thinking. A Green nut job, writing for the Guardian; George Mombiot, used to rant over what he called 'peak oil' while more recently he has changed his tune to the world being awash with oil. .So, here is what one publication said about the future of growing corn for Ethanol more recently:

'The âgale of shaleâ is hitting the US and the world with surplus energy. In 2000, shale was 2% of natural gas supply; in 2012, it was about 37%; and will be about 65% within the next two decades. The US is poised for shipping out shale gas in liquefied form as net exporter of energy. American motorists are consuming less gasoline, thereby limiting the blend of biofuels like ethanol. The âenergy securityâ lobby of the US is no longer supportive of biofuels. With sufficiency and viability of shale gas, the future demand of ethanol will shrink, resulting into demand compression of corn, especially in the US, and its price will move southwards in the coming years'. --Tejinder Narang, The Financial Express, 19 August 2014

Remember, it is only silly renewable targets that means the government want as much Ethanol in our petrol as they can get away with. Your Norton's future is not a worry to the folks at the DfT. In fact one communication suggested that there wouldn't be any carburratedvehicles on the road after 2018. If E10 is all we have they will be right while this Ethanol business is just accepted as inevitable. Demanding E0 is easily possible.

Finally on spark plugs: I remember my Dad taking plugs down to the local garage to be sandblasted. I mentioned this to Richard Deeks, who sells plugs, amongst other old bikeelectrical parts. He told me that modern plugs were only good for a light clean and certainly not sand blasting!

Happy riding folks while you still can. I hope to do my annual trip to Whitbyon my exWD16H on Sunday, weather permitting.And yes, I'll be carrying a spare Champion D9. You never know!

Previously charles_bovington wrote:

Previously Niall Topping wrote:

Hi All,

As for N7Y plugs, leaving aside the Ethanol question, you can use them, I have used N9Y Mini plugs, but they don't last long because they are unable to conduct enough heat out and the electrodes recede quite quickly, that is why we need a harder plug like an N4C, if you just poodled about they would probably last a good while, and will start easier too.

As for the ICI petrol, no it didn't attack tanks O rings etc, and it was excellent fuel, my friend had a Rover 105S which would pink on anything but 5-Star, but it ran sweet as a nut on ICI 4-star, when they stopped selling ICI petrol he filled it up one last time and put it in the paper!

As for the ''we can still get E-free fuel, why worry?' argument, thats fine for now, but we will be lucky if its still available in 2 years, and I for one, will still be riding then.

Does anyone know of anywhere still selling the Bayford 4 Star? The last one in Lancashire stopped about7 years ago, the last time I got any was in Chesterfield about 4 years back, why did it stop, was it lack of sales?

I use the Fuel Cat in my Velocette and it works, insofar as preventing pre-ignition and fuel degradation in the tank.

I still think that the plug fouling problem is due to some additive, probably a metallic compound, rather than the Ethanol itself, it may even be that the tank liner/O ring/float destruction is not due to Ethanol itself, but something else that the oil companies are dumping in it and allowing us the privilege of paying for.

I met a Petrol-Chemical engineer once who told me that unleaded petrol was the biggest commercial con trick in history, that the oil companies used it as a way of selling to the public stuff that was so toxic that you couldn't even get a licence to store it, and that the sheer brilliance of it was that they got the Green Movement to campaign for it on their behalf! Because of this I cannot help but wonder what they are mixing in to these fuels, because as others have already stated, the alcohol based fuels of the past did not have these dramatic side-effects.

We will have no choice but to pay for whatever they dish up, I do hope that we will still be able to get some kind of fuel that our bikes can digest, if people think it fanciful, the Steam locomotive movement are wondering where they will get Steam Coal from once the current stocks have gone, whoever thought that it would be lack of coal that would finally kill them off, in a country that had 400 years worth of minable coal, now mostly unextractable.

Dear Niall,

Your Petro Chemical engineer was either misinformed or from another planet. Tetra Ethyl Lead, co-invented by the worlds largest oil company and the worlds largest auto manufacture, is the really toxic stuff both to produce and to store.

The development of modern lead free petrol was a costly pain in the neck for the oil companies and was driven by environmental regulations of emissions which required the phasing out of TEL in petrol because it poisons the 3-way catalysts used to meet these emissions standards. The initial octane booster was tertiary butyl methyl ether which in turn was found to be a toxic hazard and thus has been replaces by Ethanol . No conspiracy, just lots of expense for the oil companies. Lots of happy farmers profiting from the need for feedstock for ethanol production.

Incidentally, the ICI petrol was synthesized from Coal by processes also used by Germany in WW2 and by SASOL in South Africa during the boycott years. It was blended with TEL and was a high quality product, but was expensive to produce.

Hi Charles,

Perhaps the guy was from another planet, or misinformed, I don't know, but he was definitely a Petro-Chemical engineer, when I met him he was just about to retire from a long career at a large petro-chemical manufacturing plant which had previously belonged to a household name multi-national oil company.

What he railed at was not the removal of TEL from petrol, it is beyond doubt highly toxic and has an accumulative tendency in Human Tissue, although much of the credit for reduction of lead in childrens bones in countries which were early discontinuers of TEL in fuel, actually should be credited to removal of lead from cosmetics, paint on toys, school pencils and, most importantly, the phasing out and replacement of lead plumbing in water supply pipes in soft water areas, all of which started before TEL was even invented.

What he considered criminal was the cynical introduction of what he called 'aromatics' to fuel for no better reason than that they burned and the oil industry wanted to get rid of them, even though some of them were highly toxic themselves and far more readily absorbed into the human body, without any legislative oversight or research into long-term effects. The green lobby campaigned hard for the removal of lead from fuel, not the introduction of all this other junk. He told me that the oil industry wanted to do this because the removal of TEL (which they had to buy from the holders of extremely tighly written patents, or their territorial licence holders) from fuel, and its replacement with their own waste products would massively increase their profits, this was 20 years ago, now we, the customers, facilitate this even more by giving tax breaks to the producers of Ethanol, which the oil companies sell on to us, with no reduction in price. He told me that promising research into lesser or non toxic anti-knock additives had been scrapped because this option ticked all the boxes. Meanwhile the amount of arable land devoted to Ethanol production, reduces world food production and pushes other prices up, increasing profits for more multi-nationals.

Like I said, maybe he was telling porkies, but he seemed very convincing, even to me, who normally regards scientists as second only to politicians not to believe, after all, these were the people who thought it would be a good idea to fire hydrogen bombs into the stratosphere and detonate them, just to see what effect it would have on the weather, now look at it, coincidence, or conspiracy theory, the choice is yours!

Grooves are generally numbered from the top, i.e. No 1 is the top groove. Most bikes with monoblocs use a C needle, but some use a D needle. It's a C for a 99. 389 needles are longer than 376 needles - if you pick up some assorted needles, it's possible to fit the wrong one.Tends to play havoc with the carburation when you do that. Not all new needle jets are the same - a 106 from one source can be quite different from a 106 from another supplier. Always worth seeking out the genuine Amal.

Oh no, I've strayed back on topic!

Previously Gordon Johnston wrote:

Grooves are generally numbered from the top, i.e. No 1 is the top groove. Most bikes with monoblocs use a C needle, but some use a D needle. It's a C for a 99. 389 needles are longer than 376 needles - if you pick up some assorted needles, it's possible to fit the wrong one.Tends to play havoc with the carburation when you do that. Not all new needle jets are the same - a 106 from one source can be quite different from a 106 from another supplier. Always worth seeking out the genuine Amal.

Oh no, I've strayed back on topic!

Wait, it's not a bog standard 99. It has 650 high comp pistons and an add-on air filter. The factory settings no longer apply.

This is why we are waiting for Robert to get back to us for his settings, running on E0 petrol. It will be a good marker for anyone with mods to take into account.

Sorry I have not been able to find my slim air filter yet but I'll be doing some mods to my rich running ES2 next week, again, I think all this info is useful as to what direction to go. In this case using a Mk 1 928.

With regard to air filters: the old saying was with one where not fitted as standard; go up a main jet size but with different fuel etc who can say?

Wait, it's not a bog standard 99. It has 650 high comp pistons and an add-on air filter. The factory settings no longer apply.

In my experience, the compression ratio made sod all difference to the carb settings though with an air filter I would reduce the main jet from a 250 to a 240. You can only start at the standard settings and then alter one thing at a time.

My assorted bikes are still on standard carb settings despite variations in petrol composition over the years. On all of them, I have retarded the ignition timing a few degrees to cope with lowered octane ratings. I have only encounteredrich running when needle jets have become worn - which does happen after a few thousand miles. Perhaps I am just lucky.

Policy is made by people who do are either too stupid to understand basic physics and chemistry or, more likely, are forced to pedal barmy ideas so as to buy votes from the self-styled 'Greens' who hold the balance of political power in the heart of the European Empire in Germany.In 2017 it will be illegal to sell vacuum cleaners with over 700 watts. The only way they will work is to have narrower nozzles so it will take twice as long to clean the carpet as a 1400 watt machine. So the total power consumed will be the same; and they are too idiotic to understand. Furthermore we shall spend more time on such tasks; thereby shortening our aggregate useful and enjoyable lives and thus effectively killing thousands of people per year. (Every 8760 lost hours is a year off a life)Logically if they want to reduce engine emissions by taxation they should simply increase the tax on fuel. But they would rather create a vastly complex system based on theoretical fuel consumption instead - so once you have taxed your Bugatti Veyron you might as well use it to the full.Don't blame scientists. They can give us nuclear power which is the greenest and safest form we have and steadfastly refuses to commit mass murder even when people do daft things with it. Fossil fuel should only be used for transport.I think I shall report my own mail to the webmaster for being overtly political...And anyway - what is the best needle for a 99? Are there many different ones? And is groove number 1 at the top or at the bottom?

If you think the Nuclear power is the safest option then Think again its NOT you have to dump thunders of tons of nuclear wast somewhere , perhaps in your back garden wound be a good place , well I can tell you where all been lied too by our own government , I have top secret papers on the Environment and the public is not apart of it where just cannon fodder like we allway been its time to wake up, people there polluting the air we breath with alluoimum oxide bruntum oxide these are toxic too all life forms , you need to look to the sky the see the chem trails there spraying us all with they want us all dead, thats the truth but you will not believe the truth , but you see later on, we do not need Nuclear power or wind turbines or coal power station Look at the Nicola Tesla story and you see why, and you have some of the answers your looking for for the past 100,000 years we been visited under cover by alien intelligences the government knows all about it and will not say any thing , why well I will tell you why there Scared to tell you or anyone. as these alien technology is slowing being used right now to keep control of every one thats the mobile phone, as a tracking device you do not know about, the computer is alien technology back engineered from downed interstellar craft governments of this world have them all over the planet, we know about then and have been whaching whats going on , where not alone there are people hear that look human but are not, as for green men there are not any I have seen , and you may laugh but that what they want you too do not believe, is all made up just story's for kids , think again , ask your self how this world as come so far in a short time in electronic technology when is just 100 years ago we just got radio by Marconi but he stole pattens from Nicola Tesla he is the real man behide radio and TV AC electric Polyphases motors bladeless water turbines and robotics x rays neon lights UV lighting and a particle beam weapon designed by him in 1941 and a magnetic pulses beam weapon , HARRP look it up, and Nicola Tesla did some 600 patterns now under lock and key by the C.I.A and N.A.D .I can tell you Top Secrets that will blow your mind , you not believe them but there real as me, information come too me all the time, yours anna j

Anna,

Even by your standards this must rank as the most weird contribution ever. I suspect that one of the problems is that there is so much nonsense on the internet nowadays and the gullible cannot distinguish fact from fiction.

P.S. I like the article on your Manxman in 'Old Bike Mart.'

Anna,

Even by your standards this must rank as the most weird contribution ever. I suspect that one of the problems is that there is so much nonsense on the internet nowadays and the gullible cannot distinguish fact from fiction.

P.S. I like the article on your Manxman in 'Old Bike Mart.'

well I knew no one would believe this thats why I put it down here and just maybe this tread will get locked by our nice web-master as its run on too far and the problem as been answered many times over by now, but as I said before the Truth is never believed by anyone, As this I put down on this tread are Facts And Not Fiction as I know what fiction is, So You do the research, and you see ! Photos of Nicola Tesla 1903 and photos Of Real Extraterrestrial Biological Enteritis found By the Military. real photos leaked out to prove the smoking gun where not alone, alot of people have risked there lives to get these photos out , the truth is out there ! yours Anna J

And have a look at this conference on you tube about Geo-engineering of our planet this is really going on, time to wake up to the Truth

Anna, I'm extremely disappointed if you have gone way off topic to close this thread down. Your answer, many times is a particular spark plug. We are awaiting a carb setting actually. Well done web master in this case for giving Robert the chance to report back so we can close this properly.

The only point that I can say is true is with regard to HAARP. Don't ask me how I know but there is big money in messing about with the weather and nothing new in this, despite the denials.

When H G Wells broadcast the War of the Worlds on the radio, people actually thought they were being invaded by Martians. Those props in Texas are a well known hoax. To discuss this further, try a new off topic thread. I'll bet you that even aliens wouldn't power their make believe space ship on Ethanol. Nuff said!

Hello Patrick, I meant to write earlier. Anyway, yes I am a member of the MGOC and an MG owner. What prompted me to write now is that a past Section President of the VMCC who said Ethanol never caused him any problem with supermarket petrol, gave me a call the other day, following a two week holiday break, away from his beloved 1925 Royal Enfield.

This owner would say that all he needed to do was to add some Miller (I could imagine another brand would do as well) anti Ethanol additive and all is well) This stuff certainly helps to slow down the damaging effects but even Miller says it is a not 100% cure.

So, his tank sealanthad all come away and was soft and I was asked for advice as how to remove it from his flat tank. He'll be using BP Ultimate from now, just a shame he didn't take that advice before.

My point to you Patrick is that you don't see the problem until you have it. Who knows what damage is going on with your MG's or Norton's for that matter until the symptoms surface.

Seems one hell of a polavato be draining and refilling tanks to use a vehicle just so the government can meet their renewable targets.

Oh, did I tell you that Ethanol reduces your MPG...

Anna, I'm extremely disappointed if you have gone way off topic to close this thread down. Your answer, many times is a particular spark plug. We are awaiting a carb setting actually. Well done web master in this case for giving Robert the chance to report back so we can close this properly.

The only point that I can say is true is with regard to HAARP. Don't ask me how I know but there is big money in messing about with the weather and nothing new in this, despite the denials.

When H G Wells broadcast the War of the Worlds on the radio, people actually thought they were being invaded by Martians. Those props in Texas are a well known hoax. To discuss this further, try a new off topic thread. I'll bet you that even aliens wouldn't power their make believe space ship on Ethanol. Nuff said!

well as for setting up a Amal carburetor first off you need a good carburetor and worn out one will not set up, and it will always run rich, on mater want you do with it, with a good amal 376 you first make sure there is no slack alice in the throttle cable then screw out the big screw looking downward and then with the pilot screw you screw it in and then turn back by 1.1/2 turns start engine two adjust pilot screw for a lean or rich mixture you tell by the engine note then slowly screw up the big air screw to get a tick over 700 to 800 rpm should be about right, so thats it , your Alien do not have to mess with old antiques like ours , with there technology they can go anywhere they like in space and it cost them nothing where the only species on this planet that as too pay to say alive, and pay too travel anywhere , so I welcome the day we do not have too do this, and travel where the hell we like , a E-bike will be the next big thing and with anursure charging you can go anywhere for next to nothing , we need to get our own still set up and make our own fuel , like they did back in the mid 1920s there is lots going on with this hydrogen packs you can get, we got to diversify somewhere . there be a time when there no petrol left, as the oil is running out, that why there is so much synthetic oils on the market, you guy need to do some experiment and see what you come up with , yours anna j

With shale gas and oil too, we are not likely to run out of fuel any time soon and don't forget the high quality fuel ICI produced. This, even with a world population of near 10 Billion!

As a last resort, it would be possible to take Ethanol out of petrol, simply by adding water but I hope we never have to go there. After all, what do you do with all that Ethanol and water?

And if you consider that near 80% of our fuel is tax then it really is for almost nothing, except for the tax that is...

With shale gas and oil too, we are not likely to run out of fuel any time soon and don't forget the high quality fuel ICI produced. This, even with a world population of near 10 Billion!

As a last resort, it would be possible to take Ethanol out of petrol, simply by adding water but I hope we never have to go there. After all, what do you do with all that Ethanol and water?

And if you consider that near 80% of our fuel is tax then it really is for almost nothing, except for the tax that is...

shale gas that just the tip of the iceberg there really looking for oil not gas . did you not know that gas is just a by product of drilling for oil and then there the pollution this will cause in your own back yard too , and there be more cancers more toxins in the atmosphere have a look what really going on, and it will make you into a Mr angry and the thing is your all paying for it, in your taxes , and you have no say in the mater and they call this country democratic is a joke, its time too wake up and make a stand wile we have all got homes too go too as fracking will affect your home, that is a fact, that got on getting round it, me I still my sell up and move to Sweden are the british bikes live, as there is more brit bikes out there than here, and in summer its hotter than Spain, and in winter is real cool but good for skiing as its dry snow, not wet like its here the swedes are more family going, and really look after each other and folks on there own are see by them too no one is left out, some one will come around too see if your ok , even a guy that be court in the heavy snow and he was living in his Volvo for 4 days but someone got too him and got him out of there, so do not be fooled by this crony government they tell you the moon made of green cheese next, yours anna j

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously neil_wyatt wrote:

With shale gas and oil too, we are not likely to run out of fuel any time soon and don't forget the high quality fuel ICI produced. This, even with a world population of near 10 Billion!

As a last resort, it would be possible to take Ethanol out of petrol, simply by adding water but I hope we never have to go there. After all, what do you do with all that Ethanol and water?

And if you consider that near 80% of our fuel is tax then it really is for almost nothing, except for the tax that is...

shale gas that just the tip of the iceberg there really looking for oil not gas . did you not know that gas is just a by product of drilling for oil and then there the pollution this will cause in your own back yard too , and there be more cancers more toxins in the atmosphere have a look what really going on, and it will make you into a Mr angry and the thing is your all paying for it, in your taxes , and you have no say in the mater and they call this country democratic is a joke, its time too wake up and make a stand wile we have all got homes too go too as fracking will affect your home, that is a fact, that got on getting round it, me I still my sell up and move to Sweden are the british bikes live, as there is more brit bikes out there than here, and in summer its hotter than Spain, and in winter is real cool but good for skiing as its dry snow, not wet like its here the swedes are more family going, and really look after each other and folks on there own are see by them too no one is left out, some one will come around too see if your ok , even a guy that be court in the heavy snow and he was living in his Volvo for 4 days but someone got too him and got him out of there, so do not be fooled by this crony government they tell you the moon made of green cheese next, yours anna j

But Anna,I have seen on the television lots of gruesome murders, especially of females, in Scandinavia and particularly in Sweden. Aren't you worried about that?

What kind of motorcycle forum is this - this is not what I signed up for. These rambling rants have gone past mildly amusing to outright frustrating.

Previously stuart_munroe wrote:

What kind of motorcycle forum is this - this is not what I signed up for. These rambling rants have gone past mildly amusing to outright frustrating.

I agree Stuart, time to put an end to this nonsense.

JMc

Previously John McNicoll wrote:

Previously stuart_munroe wrote:

What kind of motorcycle forum is this - this is not what I signed up for. These rambling rants have gone past mildly amusing to outright frustrating.

I agree Stuart, time to put an end to this nonsense.

JMc

I disagree, up until the last few posts anyway, this started as a straightforward technical enquiry on carburettor settings, and developed from there because of the difference between original carb specs and practical settings for today, the major difference being fuel composition.

Personally, I think that any discussion on current and future fuel is highly relevant, and I myself have learned a lot from this thread, although, I must confess,, it has not made me feel any better about the prospects of still being able to ride my bikes in 10 years time.

I always thought that fuel would just get more and more expensive, and that it would become a luxury, rather that something you would use to go to the shops, that didn't particularly worry me as I was stopped from using my bikes to go to work on many years ago by changes in working practice which required me to take a van home or find another trade, but I have to admit I would pay quite a high price for fuel, for a leisure time ride IF IT WERE AVAILABLE.

So it never bothered me to pay the preminum price for the Bayford 4 Star, then it disappeared, and now I worry that within the next few years, there will be nothing suitable available at all, even going to my local airport to buy avgas does not seem possible anymore.

So I think that most of this thread has been highly relevant, the continued usability of our favourite machines must be our prime consideration, surely, or are we to take the same sort of view as the Chairman of the VOC, currently in hot water for saying that he 'couldn't care less' if the club attracts younger members or not, because he wouldn't be around to see the consequences if it didn't.

Good point Niall, I found it all relevantexcept for the more recent Alien content, but even that was mildly entertaining though nobody was forced to read it!

My worry is that BP may put 5% Ethanol into Ultimate when E10 becomes the standard (With a warning notice of course) I fear this because the FBHVC are supporting E5and NOTE0 as their so called legacy fuel.

Meanwhile, how is Robert doing with his needle setting, running on Ultimate?

Maybe I did not make myself clear for which I apologise. The thread is informative and the way it wandered around the initial question with regard to the future I read with great interest. What I am struggling to accept is the constant hijacking of threads and the style with which these ramblings are delivered with much of it repetitive and just makes me want to not bother with reading them.

Previously stuart_munroe wrote:

Maybe I did not make myself clear for which I apologise. The thread is informative and the way it wandered around the initial question with regard to the future I read with great interest. What I am struggling to accept is the constant hijacking of threads and the style with which these ramblings are delivered with much of it repetitive and just makes me want to not bother with reading them.

That is what I thought you were implying, most of it is very useful imformation, it's just the stupid irrelevant posts which come from one source.

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously neil_wyatt wrote:

With shale gas and oil too, we are not likely to run out of fuel any time soon and don't forget the high quality fuel ICI produced. This, even with a world population of near 10 Billion!

As a last resort, it would be possible to take Ethanol out of petrol, simply by adding water but I hope we never have to go there. After all, what do you do with all that Ethanol and water?

And if you consider that near 80% of our fuel is tax then it really is for almost nothing, except for the tax that is...

shale gas that just the tip of the iceberg there really looking for oil not gas . did you not know that gas is just a by product of drilling for oil and then there the pollution this will cause in your own back yard too , and there be more cancers more toxins in the atmosphere have a look what really going on, and it will make you into a Mr angry and the thing is your all paying for it, in your taxes , and you have no say in the mater and they call this country democratic is a joke, its time too wake up and make a stand wile we have all got homes too go too as fracking will affect your home, that is a fact, that got on getting round it, me I still my sell up and move to Sweden are the british bikes live, as there is more brit bikes out there than here, and in summer its hotter than Spain, and in winter is real cool but good for skiing as its dry snow, not wet like its here the swedes are more family going, and really look after each other and folks on there own are see by them too no one is left out, some one will come around too see if your ok , even a guy that be court in the heavy snow and he was living in his Volvo for 4 days but someone got too him and got him out of there, so do not be fooled by this crony government they tell you the moon made of green cheese next, yours anna j

But Anna,I have seen on the television lots of gruesome murders, especially of females, in Scandinavia and particularly in Sweden. Aren't you worried about that?

Television that was last century we do not have TV any more is old hat every thing I need on the internet, even old TV programs , but my favorite is Penny Steam on you tube, I love watch steam locomotives , And anyone that whats too have ago at me will get a big shock, as I done 25 years in marshal arts , and I have the killer blow, no need for anything else just my hands, kun-fu techniques the way of the dragon, I nothing worries me much there not a man on this planet that I cannot put down , so is there anyone what too pick a widow , or do you prefer hospital dinners , your Anna J

Good point Niall, I found it all relevantexcept for the more recent Alien content, but even that was mildly entertaining though nobody was forced to read it!

My worry is that BP may put 5% Ethanol into Ultimate when E10 becomes the standard (With a warning notice of course) I fear this because the FBHVC are supporting E5and NOTE0 as their so called legacy fuel.

Meanwhile, how is Robert doing with his needle setting, running on Ultimate?

Well Aliens are all around us but you don't see them as they look like us humans you never know I maybe one, my blood can be shared with any one, and I cannot be cloned witch is a good job, who would want two of me,

And as for fuel you all going to have come up with your own solution As the Oil is running out fast, there is Not a endless supply Just take what going on in Iraq this ISIS were have they come from and how did they get all this New kit and the New motors there running around in and there well funded , So I smell a rat, somewhere there I think this is a hoax to get the Military back in there to secure the oil fields As this last war was All About OIL Not Terrorists (9/11) was a Inside JOB no steel structure can free fall like it did without explosives thats facts wake up peoples

Point made.