Carb needle for 99

I would try a new, genuine Amal 106 jet first.

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

The plugs have cleaned themselves up after dropping the needle to the top notch, It may be worth trying a 105 needle jet which could then allow me to use a middle notch and leave me with some room for adjustment ?,

Well No one is reading my advice and you all have been writing away some of it I have all ready written before hand , you do not need a 105 needle , you need a 106 and second notch from the top so you can adjust the cutaway so you have a nice even tick over , BP7ES and B7ES are not Shielded from debris and can foul up, with E5 ethanol So this better to use Bosch W8 DTC these plug are shielded and will not foul up ,with ethanol , I been using them for two years now its the best move I ever made, my bike runs very nice , and I never had to take out the plugs yet, So try reading what I have put for your benefit. so give Bosch a try out, they cost £1.90 each from Green Spark plug Co.uk Yours Anna J

Hey Anna, if you have never needed to take the plugs out then how do you know the state of them?

My ES2 runs OK (of a fashion) but I know the plug will be black if I took it out. Just bought the correct No 4 slide for it.

Something else, a strong smell of petrol is always a good indicator of rich running, assuming you don't have a leak.

BTW, Gordon was suggesting a genuine new 106 needle jet.

Previously neil_wyatt wrote:

Hey Anna, if you have never needed to take the plugs out then how do you know the state of them?

My ES2 runs OK (of a fashion) but I know the plug will be black if I took it out. Just bought the correct No 4 slide for it.

Something else, a strong smell of petrol is always a good indicator of rich running, assuming you don't have a leak.

BTW, Gordon was suggesting a genuine new 106 needle jet.

well I told you earlier that the needle you needed was a 106, second Notch from the top setting, And I do not need too know what the plug are like they will take care of them self's as there Self Shielding and so this mean's they clean them self's there anti-fouling plugs so there is no need to interfere with them as they start the bike within 3 kicks most off the time its first kick, hot or cold, you really should try a set out, and see what you think our Chairman As now going to try a set in his 1960 Dominator model 88 too see if it improves the running , so we get back to you on that one, I am very happy using Bosch W-7DTC in my bike there the same heat range as Champion N4c the C is for copper core , I have a look and see if Champion are doing something smiler too Bosch I get back with some more Info for you all on Spark plugs, yours anna j

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

Hi Anna and Gordon, I value your input which i know comes from experience, I have new jets, needles , slides etc, But standard settings can only be a guideline after 50 years wear,650 comp pistons add on air filter,and modern fuel.I expect i will have to go up a grade in hardness on the plug to suit the HC pistons ,Once i have done a few runs on fixed throttle positions to check plug colours and settled on a heat range ,i will look at using some fancy multipoint gizzmos.Getting some Kickback at the moment and pops and bangs, suspect the capacitor in the dissy, and an air leak at the silencer joint,Have got to sort it before the weekend.

Hello What model Norton Are we on with hear as you may know where only trying our best to help > Yours Anna J

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

The plugs have cleaned themselves up after dropping the needle to the top notch, It may be worth trying a 105 needle jet which could then allow me to use a middle notch and leave me with some room for adjustment ?,

Well No one is reading my advice and you all have been writing away some of it I have all ready written before hand , you do not need a 105 needle , you need a 106 and second notch from the top so you can adjust the cutaway so you have a nice even tick over , BP7ES and B7ES are not Shielded from debris and can foul up, with E5 ethanol So this better to use Bosch W8 DTC these plug are shielded and will not foul up ,with ethanol , I been using them for two years now its the best move I ever made, my bike runs very nice , and I never had to take out the plugs yet, So try reading what I have put for your benefit. so give Bosch a try out, they cost £1.90 each from Green Spark plug Co.uk Yours Anna J

Thanks for the tip Anna,

I have been having terrible problem with fouling with local fuel, if the bike runs the tiniest bit rich it just stops and the plug is dead, it has been costing me a fortune in plugs, before anyone says it, I haven't been able to get E-free here for quite some time, even Murco has Ethanol in it.

I shall give the W8 DTYCs a try.

Cheers,

Niall

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

Anna, its a 1960 99 with single monoblock, Niall, try dropping the needle in the slide one notch,my plugs went from fouled sooty black to light tan electrode and a fine carbon ring round the mouth ,the earth strap has a heat line slap in the center, All much better. A sooty plug also means your oil will be contaminated with carbon very fast.

Robert,

thanks for the help, but when I said a tiny bit rich, I meant it, the plugs don't come out sooty, they look fine, they just stop sparking, cleaning them will not remove whatever deposit stops them working, new plug(s) and we are away, this is not one bike, but several, (650/99 hybrid, Model 50, Venom, BMW R69S outfit, the only one which I never had this trouble with, strangely, was a 250 MZ trophy, possibly a much hotter plug to begin with). The Bing carbs on the BM are notorious for float problems, if the float in one of the carbs sticks down, the plug on that side will pack up almost immediately. I have tried different makes and grades of plug, without success.

I am buying plugs by the dozen now and spending more on them than oil.

I don't buy my petrol from the same place all the time, I have tried both regular and super grades (at the few places they still sell it). Dropping the needle on the 350 did not help, but increasing the slide cutaway did, althogh I have not got it quite right yet.

The 650/99 hybrid motor overheated in town and spat out a valve guide, I think I went a bit weak with that one, The BMW outfit, I am wondering if I can afford £700 for a new pair of carbs....

Niall, I assume you either live in SW England or outside the UK.

I run on BP Ultimate and have to travel to get to my nearest station but when I know I will pass one in the car I'm ready with a plastic can. I take it you might be able to do the same when out of the E zone.

That said, while we know Ethanol can destroy fuel system components, including tank sealant, I wouldn't have associated it with rich running. @ 35% Oxygen of the current 5%, pro rata, it is more likely to produce the opposite if anything. Charles previously wrote that there would be no need to change jetting as a result. But Ethanol certainly promotes hot running.

Two of my singles started running hot in 2006/7 and it was only after I found the petsealcoming away and gone soft that eventually I found out why.

If only the stake holder FBHVC had warned us instead of staying silent! Who's side are they on?

Anyway, if your 99 is carboningup, sooty plugs etc then it will make the oil dirty, as said, and rather quickly.

I'll let you know in a month or so how a Mk 1 28mm with 3 1/2 slide and 240 main jet go on my 1960 99.

Hi again,

I don't think I've expressed myself well here.

The E-fuel is not causing rich running, but carburation needs to be much more accurately set up throughout the full range of throttle openings, none of my bikes have been sooting up, but unless my carburation is much better set up than it needed to be before, any SLIGHTLY rich period, if I stay in it for more than a short while, and something in the fuel is not being burnt off and is coating the plugs, which look fine, but will not spark. I have tried cleaning them but it is useless and now I just whizz them, some have lasted 3-4 miles only. As I get nearer with the carburation this is much less, but I never leave home without at least two changes.

I don't even know where there is a BP station, I thought they only had them in Scotland now, There are very few branded stations around here any more, they are all car valeting establishments, and all the Supermarket Petrol comes from Ellesmere Port anyway, regardless of whichplaceyou buy it from.

Modern fuel injected vehicles equipped with Lambda sensors have very precisely metered fuel delivery and run much hotter than our old bikes, which used to allways err on the rich side to avoid damage to valves, piston crown etc.perhaps that is why they can run on this stuff.

I am really surprised that other people have not been having similar problems, Incidentally, none of the tanks on these bikes have ever been Petsealed, I keep my filters clean, and the bikes listed have 2 Rita systems, 1 BTH electronic and 1 old but very effective Lucas K1F Magneto.

If this is not a fuel problem then I have learned nothing at all in the last 40 years that I have been messing with bikes.

BP are nationwide. If you are not in the SW of England then check out your nearest station, please. Only Ultimate 97 RON is E0. But remember, not in South West England.

Fuel or more likely dodgy plus appears to be the issue. Never had a bad Champion yet, although we know about counterfeit N*K's.

If you are getting your plugs from the same supplier, as with fuel, then change.

Since you have the same issue with mag and electronic ignitions I can't think what else if at one stage all was well.

Please let us know how you get on.

Previously neil_wyatt wrote:

BP are nationwide. If you are not in the SW of England then check out your nearest station, please. Only Ultimate 97 RON is E0. But remember, not in South West England.

Fuel or more likely dodgy plus appears to be the issue. Never had a bad Champion yet, although we know about counterfeit N*K's.

If you are getting your plugs from the same supplier, as with fuel, then change.

Since you have the same issue with mag and electronic ignitions I can't think what else if at one stage all was well.

Please let us know how you get on.

Thanks again Neil,

I have taken your advice and by happy chance it seems that the Shell station near where my Mum lives is now BP, so I shall try the Ultimate and see how I get on.

Once again, I near to clarify myself, the problem I have is imperfect carburation, the Velocette is damn near perfect on the carb, the only time it happened to me on that was when I got stuck behind a JCB 3C on a windy B road, but the result was the same, a dead plug, fit new one, away instantly, with the BMW the problem is worn float needle seats which cause the float bowl fuel level to rise at low speeds, the last time I took it on a long run I used 5 sets of plugs coming back from the Dragon Rally, nearly all on the near (sidecar) side unfortunately with the OE carbs now at £700 a pair I don't know what to do about this, the Model 50 had an engine change but the previous 626 carb was retained and required different settings, the dommy was running OK when I had it on LRP but again fuel changes required carburation changes. My point is that 4star or LRP would tolerate small errors in carburation, and this E-fuel seems not to, it is my belief that something in it requires a very high temperature to burn, and a cooler, very slightly rich engine allows this substance to build up on the plug and foul it, what is frustrating is that whatever it is will not come off and the plugs are scrap.

The plugs themselves have been Champion N5Cs N3Cs, NGK B8ES, Bosch W240T2, W260T2, W7CC, various old KLG FE100s and FE 80s ant the same sort of stuff in the BMW but short-reach ones, (Champion L3, L5, Bosch W240T1, W260T1, NGK B7HS), I tried the old ones (which came from my own personal stock, saved for years and which I now regret using), because I read a piece which said that old glazed nose plugs did not suffer this problem but to no avail, about the best were some old Esso plugs said to be N4 equivalents they did quite well.

It seems that setting up the carburation on a bike if no combustion gas analyser is available will from now on involve the sacrificial offering up of a few new plugs, and how can you set up a rebuilt bike according to the book, which involves full-throttle running, until you have run it in at slow speeds where carburation used to be less critical?

I think I have bought more plugs in the last 3 years than in the previous 25, I am sure that once I get set up bang on I shall be able to forget about plugs again for a while. Unless the fuel changes again.

Incidentally the comment about not how do you know if your plug is OK if you never need to take it out, reminds me of when I was a kid I knew a guy with a CB32 Goldie which he claimed had not had the plug out for 10,000 miles, his girlfriend said 'he must check it when he has the head off every weekend!'. LOL!

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

Previously Niall Topping wrote:

Previously neil_wyatt wrote:

BP are nationwide. If you are not in the SW of England then check out your nearest station, please. Only Ultimate 97 RON is E0. But remember, not in South West England.

Fuel or more likely dodgy plus appears to be the issue. Never had a bad Champion yet, although we know about counterfeit N*K's.

If you are getting your plugs from the same supplier, as with fuel, then change.

Since you have the same issue with mag and electronic ignitions I can't think what else if at one stage all was well.

Please let us know how you get on.

Thanks again Neil,

I have taken your advice and by happy chance it seems that the Shell station near where my Mum lives is now BP, so I shall try the Ultimate and see how I get on.

Once again, I near to clarify myself, the problem I have is imperfect carburation, the Velocette is damn near perfect on the carb, the only time it happened to me on that was when I got stuck behind a JCB 3C on a windy B road, but the result was the same, a dead plug, fit new one, away instantly, with the BMW the problem is worn float needle seats which cause the float bowl fuel level to rise at low speeds, the last time I took it on a long run I used 5 sets of plugs coming back from the Dragon Rally, nearly all on the near (sidecar) side unfortunately with the OE carbs now at £700 a pair I don't know what to do about this, the Model 50 had an engine change but the previous 626 carb was retained and required different settings, the dommy was running OK when I had it on LRP but again fuel changes required carburation changes. My point is that 4star or LRP would tolerate small errors in carburation, and this E-fuel seems not to, it is my belief that something in it requires a very high temperature to burn, and a cooler, very slightly rich engine allows this substance to build up on the plug and foul it, what is frustrating is that whatever it is will not come off and the plugs are scrap.

The plugs themselves have been Champion N5Cs N3Cs, NGK B8ES, Bosch W240T2, W260T2, W7CC, various old KLG FE100s and FE 80s ant the same sort of stuff in the BMW but short-reach ones, (Champion L3, L5, Bosch W240T1, W260T1, NGK B7HS), I tried the old ones (which came from my own personal stock, saved for years and which I now regret using), because I read a piece which said that old glazed nose plugs did not suffer this problem but to no avail, about the best were some old Esso plugs said to be N4 equivalents they did quite well.

It seems that setting up the carburation on a bike if no combustion gas analyser is available will from now on involve the sacrificial offering up of a few new plugs, and how can you set up a rebuilt bike according to the book, which involves full-throttle running, until you have run it in at slow speeds where carburation used to be less critical?

I think I have bought more plugs in the last 3 years than in the previous 25, I am sure that once I get set up bang on I shall be able to forget about plugs again for a while. Unless the fuel changes again.

Incidentally the comment about not how do you know if your plug is OK if you never need to take it out, reminds me of when I was a kid I knew a guy with a CB32 Goldie which he claimed had not had the plug out for 10,000 miles, his girlfriend said 'he must check it when he has the head off every weekend!'. LOL!

Thinking of buying some shares in NGK,BOSCH, CHAMPION etc.

well you only need to give one set of plugs out and there Bosch W8DTC , there the same heat range as N5c but better as these are self cleaning and there anti fouling as well. when my old Norton manxman 650 as been stud for a mouth and a half . and I fire her up she smokes with the oil weeping in to the crankcases as all Norton's do if there no tap in line, she start and burn that oil of and run real nice a run down the road and back that about 5 miles then there not a puff of smoke from then on its never seams to bother it away so that how good these Bosch plug are as if it had been a Champion the engine would of bean a pig to start , and then it would run lumpy all the way too roundabout and half way back with the odd spit and bag though the carb , then you have too take the plug out and clean them. with the Bosch plugs You do not need to do that now, its even run on half tank of diesel I put in buy mistake think I was in the van , my head was not on this planet that day , any way it run ok on it with no banging or popping , and I am not the only one that's done this our Chairman Harry he did the same with his ES2 , it run ok for some time then he started to have a bit of power lost, and got to the next filling station and filled up with fresh petrol, than it was ok from there on , so our old bike will just about run on anything , yours anna j

I am at a loss as to why you are eating plugs. I have had no spark plug failures in very many years, well, except last year a Champion in my 1952 Land Rover. My Domi disliked Champions way back in the 1970s - newplugs would fail after 7 miles. Since then I have used NGKs in everything - Norton, Velocette, BSAs except the 1913 Douglas which has Bosch, just to keep Anna happy. Fuel is mostly BP Ultimate but can be supermarket unleaded cheapo. No plug problems, even when the mixture has been a bit out. All I can suggest is BP Ultimate and NGK B7ES or B7HS (depending on the reach) and it should work. Well, it works for me.

Hmmmmm I'm at a loss too. Talking about a model 50 with a 626 carb. Mine has the most wonderful carburation one could wish for. In the last 5,000 miles I have taken the same Champion N5c out a few times and put it back in again, perfect colour and dry with not even a gap adjustment necessary..

I was running on 4* Leaded until two years ago when Bayford Thrust wouldn't break bulk for Northern Energy. Since then it has been BP Ultimate or E0 Murco super but for that one you need to check where it came from.

The only other thing is that I use Red X Leaded petrol treatment with Ultimate etc but even that is getting hard to find. All they seem to stock now is petrol system and injection cleaner. Can get RedX Lead Treatment at Autojumbles and I'm sure there will be some on remaining country small garage shelves. I wonder if this stuff makes a difference?

Previously neil_wyatt wrote:

Hmmmmm I'm at a loss too. Talking about a model 50 with a 626 carb. Mine has the most wonderful carburation one could wish for. In the last 5,000 miles I have taken the same Champion N5c out a few times and put it back in again, perfect colour and dry with not even a gap adjustment necessary..

I was running on 4* Leaded until two years ago when Bayford Thrust wouldn't break bulk for Northern Energy. Since then it has been BP Ultimate or E0 Murco super but for that one you need to check where it came from.

The only other thing is that I use Red X Leaded petrol treatment with Ultimate etc but even that is getting hard to find. All they seem to stock now is petrol system and injection cleaner. Can get RedX Lead Treatment at Autojumbles and I'm sure there will be some on remaining country small garage shelves. I wonder if this stuff makes a difference?

See if you can check what the composition of the Red-ex additive is. We had a NGK rep speak at our local club and he advised that lead free replacement additives based on manganese salts tend to foul up plugs very quickly. Potassium based products are trouble free. I use "Valvemaster" in my bikes and tractor. I've used Champion N5's in my 650SS and replace them about every 5 or so years. Never had a problem. Starting always firstor second kick hot or cold. The only plug problem I have had was when I treated the WD Big 4 to a new NGK. It only lasted 5 miles. Put the old Lodge plug back in and a way it went.

regards, Ian

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

If the plug is coming out fairly clean then the problem could be glazing of the insulator, Done some research on this ,the gist of it seems to be, clean up the carburation of any richness,go up a grade of hardness, Despite what the fuel suppliers say fuel today is formulated for lean burn watercooled cars. Not the dinosaurs we ride with crude carbs and hot heads.

Well we all have to convert them too electric , like Harley Davidsons New Electric bike, I fit a alternator and a bank of large Capacitors and two Cadmium battery's that should keep the change up ok so then there be no need for any more fuel stops , free motorcycling , yours anna J

As with many posts, this one is rambling round in circles, it might be this, it might be that, and repetition of the same statements.

Norton did, and Amal still do, give the correct details of jet, needle, cutaway etc for the 99. It is not outrageously expensive to replace these parts with the correct items. Once the carb has been set up, as described in the manual, if the problem persists the answer lies elsewhere. Start with everything set up as per manual, then check out one thing at a time.

OK John but most riders following this thread would like to see a successful conclusion before being closed down. That's all.

Previously neil_wyatt wrote:

OK John but most riders following this thread would like to see a successful conclusion before being closed down. That's all.

I agree, I think it is not productive this 'where can we get E-free fuel', 'who has the last tin of Redex'' stuff, I'm only 48 and I hope to be riding my bikes another 20 years at least, we need to find out how to run our bikes on whats going to be available, and the most mmediate part of that for me is a plug which will resist fouling long enough to set up the carburation on a rebuilt bike, Anna, I have received the plugs you recommended, if they suit your Manxman, can I assume that it hardness they are roughly equivalent to an N3?

Cheers, Niall

Previously Niall Topping wrote:

Previously neil_wyatt wrote:

OK John but most riders following this thread would like to see a successful conclusion before being closed down. That's all.

I agree, I think it is not productive this 'where can we get E-free fuel', 'who has the last tin of Redex'' stuff, I'm only 48 and I hope to be riding my bikes another 20 years at least, we need to find out how to run our bikes on whats going to be available, and the most mmediate part of that for me is a plug which will resist fouling long enough to set up the carburation on a rebuilt bike, Anna, I have received the plugs you recommended, if they suit your Manxman, can I assume that it hardness they are roughly equivalent to an N3?

Cheers, Niall

yes ok for motorway running , but the model 99 ran best on N5 or equivalent to them like w8dtc from Bosch and a Amal 376/67. set up right yours anna j

I have just bought 2 sets of these Bosch plugs for my single carb'd 650SS. The W8DTC is supposed to be equivalent to the N5, or NGK B7ES, while the W7DTC is supposed to be the equivalent of the N4, which were recommended by Norton for the SS models. The N3 doesn't seem too come up anywhere that I can see; too hot.....

The Green Plug Co. say that the Bosch cover a wider heat range anyway, so, as Anna says, the W8DTC should be ok, unless you thrash it a lot, like I do!

If it is equivalent to the N5, great, then it is also suitable for the Model 50, in which I shall try it out as soon as the very srong winds outside have abated. As Neil wrote, my 350 had wonderful carburation too, for many thousands of miles, on 4 Star and LRP.Itook it off the road for a tidy up, which became a major rebuild, which finished up taking several years as other projects intervened, and when I recently returned it to the road the carburation was a mile out, it required the needle dropping one notch and the slide cutaway increasing from 3 to 4, and the rich running which necessitated this claimed 5 new plugs, maybe a couple more yet. I cannot see what else has changed in the intervening period except for the fuel itself. I shall switch to BP Ultimate until I have the carburation sorted out at least, but I cannot help but feel, having seen 5 Star, then Two and Three star, then Four Star, then LRPall disappear, that it will only be a short while until there is no E-free fuel available, and that we will all have to cope with E10 or more.

This subject has reminded me of an excellent book 'I was a Kamikaze' by Ryujo Nagatsuka, part of which tells of the struggles in a blockaded Japan of the Air Force strugglling with a Petrol/Methanol mix called A-Go, it so reduced the performance of their fighter aircraft that they only got one pass at the B29 formations because they could not catch them for a second one. However what concerned the pilotsmore was the number of crashes due engine failure from plug fouling,....perhaps we should have seen this coming.

Previously ian_cordes wrote:

I have just bought 2 sets of these Bosch plugs for my single carb'd 650SS. The W8DTC is supposed to be equivalent to the N5, or NGK B7ES, while the W7DTC is supposed to be the equivalent of the N4, which were recommended by Norton for the SS models. The N3 doesn't seem too come up anywhere that I can see; too hot.....

The Green Plug Co. say that the Bosch cover a wider heat range anyway, so, as Anna says, the W8DTC should be ok, unless you thrash it a lot, like I do!

well tell ever one how they are for you and if thay work ok in your bike, I find they work really good, and seam too get more MPG with them so do check this out as well , I feel you like them as you find that starting is more easier than before , and running is much better too my tick over so good you can near count the firing order, anyway see what you make of them Yours Anna J

With regard to my Model 50 and its excellent carburration etc: I should have mentioned that there was a blip (Same problem with my ES2) I had running problems in Spring 2007 after a fill up with Tesco Super unleaded. Then I noticed my Petsealhad become all tacky at the next fill up. I contacted the man at Autocycle Engineering, who I bought the Petseal from and he suggested relining the tank as the new petseal would stick to the old.

None of us knew about Ethanol at this stage, even the manufacturerof petseal. Thanks stakeholder FBHVC for keeping quiet, (not!) And Ministry for Transport etc...Even lost some paint on my ES2 tank.

So, now I had two lots of petsealin my tank all dissolving and going into the combustion. I'm surprised it kept running. See link, the Petsealfilled a Tescocarrier bag, ironically!

In 2008 the rabbit was out of the hat and the stealth move to add Ethanol to petrol was in the public domain. I managed to get a carrier bag of Petsealout of my Model 50 tank while it was still soft, not using any sealantthereafter on this bike and my ES2. Carb strips were necessary and new fuel hoses but this restored normal service.

From that point I only used 4* leaded until a couple of years ago due to supply when BP Ultimate with RedX 4* lead treatment was / is used and no fuel issues since.

Sorry,

Link with a photo of a Tesco bag of used petseal was too big.

All very true Robert, hence my campaign via the VMCC to bring the FBHVC to book. For the last 3 months the VMCC journal has gone quiet on the Ethanol subject. I would urge riders to lobby their MP's. Like the withdrawal of a decent light bulb, we are finding our choices taken away from us for nothing more than meeting government targets. And for what? My own Tory back bench MP is toeing the government line, so no support there.

The FBHVC recently estimated the historic vehicle industry to be worth £4.5 Billion but with its biggest threat since rust, that must be revised down, very sadly.

This year I have had people using supermarket petrol with the anti Ethanol additive, thinking they were safe; call me to say their tanksealant has gone soft and pipe perished.

I did some research and found generally that all super market petrol contains Ethanol and certainly with regard to the standard 95 RON they do not contain any additives to reduce wear etc. It is basic petrol with 5% Ethanol. 10% with a warning sticker to come.

If 10% Ethanol may damage your engine then logically, 5% might half damage it. Like half a cyanide pill might half kill you?

Looking FWD to a successful outcome to your carb settings Robert and my anti Ethanol campaign, both for freedom of choice and the healthy future of our Norton's.

That ethanol containing petrol (gasoline) is a problem with tanks sealed with some materials andt you may well need to change your fuel lines, but I know no reason why it should be bad for engines. We used to seek out Cleveland 25% alcohol fuel in the 1950's because it was highly rated.I have seen no scientific evidence that E5 or E10 is bad for engines. There does seem to be a lot of paranoia about!

Previously charles_bovington wrote:

That ethanol containing petrol (gasoline) is a problem with tanks sealed with some materials andt you may well need to change your fuel lines, but I know no reason why it should be bad for engines. We used to seek out Cleveland 25% alcohol fuel in the 1950's because it was highly rated.I have seen no scientific evidence that E5 or E10 is bad for engines. There does seem to be a lot of paranoia about!

well Charles there is a big difference as the 1950s to 1970S Cleveland and National Benzene these where made from coal tars and distilled to make alcohol benzine fuel , where as this new stuff it made from parm cornels and sugar cane, that why you get a stick mess in your tank some times and it de-soloves rubbers some plastics and some alloys too and fiber glass tanks as well , so there you are, check out the FBHVC web site it tells you on there, all about it, yours anna j

Charles, Anna is is quite right, the Ethanol in our petrol is also a solvent. I found out to my cost that it will even strip paint!

And why didn't the FBHVCwarn us before 2008, since they knew of the problems? They told me there were few complaints. I can see this as there are many letters to classic magazines and the VMCC not even published.. I know because some opf them were mine.

But given that this stuff is only added at the distribution point, directly before delivery from a sealed tanker; then surely it shouldn't be too difficult to allow some petrol tankers through without adding Ethanol and marked up at the pump E0 or BS 70/70 in the UK. The only reason most add the stuff is to meet government targets. I wonder what the subsidies are to use this stuff?

One thing we can do is to make it worthwhile for BP to leave Ethanol out of their Ultimate.

Hope Robert gets his carb settings right using Ultimate, very soon.

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously charles_bovington wrote:

That ethanol containing petrol (gasoline) is a problem with tanks sealed with some materials and you may well need to change your fuel lines, but I know no reason why it should be bad for engines. We used to seek out Cleveland 25% alcohol fuel in the 1950's because it was highly rated.I have seen no scientific evidence that E5 or E10 is bad for engines. There does seem to be a lot of paranoia about!

well Charles there is a big difference as the 1950s to 1970S Cleveland and National Benzene these where made from coal tars and distilled to make alcohol benzine fuel , where as this new stuff it made from parm cornels and sugar cane, that why you get a stick mess in your tank some times and it de-soloves rubbers some plastics and some alloys too and fiber glass tanks as well , so there you are, check out the FBHVC web site it tells you on there, all about it, yours anna j

Clevland discol was a mixture of gasoline and ethanol and produced in 5 grades containing various levels of ethanol. It is not to be confused with National Benzol mixture which contained products ( benzene and toluene) of coal tar distillation. Both the alcohol and the coal tar products served to increase octane rating ( anti-knock) and were an alternative to the Tetra Ethyl Lead whose use is now banned.

The source of the alcohol is irrelevant, it is still C2H5OH.

Yes it is a problem if your tank had been sealed with Petseal and some plastic fuel hoses may not like it, but engines don't mind.

I have read the FBHVC web site on the issue of ethanol containing fuels and can't see anything to justify your concerns.

Charles, what about the fibreglass tanks that weren't melted with Cleveland Discol, or the hoses for that matter. The current Ethanol will even strip paint, I and others can tell you.

At a car show, two years ago, there were two men demonstrating stripping down Morris 1000 engines that were recently taken off the road. One of the things they pointed out was damage to the valves, they said it was consistent with Ethanol use.

Now the point is that if you pick up a tankful of E5 on a run, (petseal excepted) and fill up with E0 when almost empty at the end then I doubt there would be much of an issue apart from possible paint damage if spilt.

The problem is leaving it in your tank, carb and pipes, petrol tap corks etc for a duration. (Then there is the risk also of phase separation and that WILL wreck an engine) This is the problem if no E0 can be found or not allowed to exist. In the UK, a tiny amount of 4* leaded, BS 40/40 can be produced still but this last two years appears impossible to find.

Just allow a nationwide distribution of E0 petrol for vehicles not suitable to Ethanol use and the job is done. Forcing it on everyone, like stupid dim light bulbs is just not on. I found plenty of E0petrol in the US of A last year. What about our freedom of choice here or are daft targets more important? Stand up and be counted......

Previously neil_wyatt wrote:

Charles, what about the fibreglass tanks that weren't melted with Cleveland Discol, or the hoses for that matter. The current Ethanol will even strip paint, I and others can tell you.

At a car show, two years ago, there were two men demonstrating stripping down Morris 1000 engines that were recently taken off the road. One of the things they pointed out was damage to the valves, they said it was consistent with Ethanol use.

Now the point is that if you pick up a tankful of E5 on a run, (petseal excepted) and fill up with E0 when almost empty at the end then I doubt there would be much of an issue apart from possible paint damage if spilt.

The problem is leaving it in your tank, carb and pipes, petrol tap corks etc for a duration. (Then there is the risk also of phase separation and that WILL wreck an engine) This is the problem if no E0 can be found or not allowed to exist. In the UK, a tiny amount of 4* leaded, BS 40/40 can be produced still but this last two years appears impossible to find.

Just allow a nationwide distribution of E0 petrol for vehicles not suitable to Ethanol use and the job is done. Forcing it on everyone, like stupid dim light bulbs is just not on. I found plenty of E0petrol in the US of A last year. What about our freedom of choice here or are daft targets more important? Stand up and be counted......

Dear Neil,

Phase separation, that is water forming a second layer in a fuel tank generally only occurs when liquid water as opposed to water vapour is introduced into the fuel. For condensation due to humidity and temperature change inside the fuel tank to occur you need about 200 gallons of air for each gallon of fuel. Also the rate of adsorption of water vapour is very slow and would need about 2 years of exposure to achieve saturation.

In theory, there could be problems with petroil fueeld 2 strokes, but 4 stroke engines are very unlikely to experience difficulties. Yes some GRP tanks, illegal since 1978, can have severe problems Ian Murdoch in the Commando section recommended Caswells GTS1750 as a solution.

With regard to valve damage due to ethanol in fuel, I would like to know how it was diagnosed. Our MG midget runs without problems as do those of others in our village to say nothing about the Morris Minor.

When unleaded gasoline came out there were claims of widespread valve recession and Engine manufacturers spent fortunes trying to reproduce this phenomena. Only BMC A series engines were able to recess valves and then only if driven under very very atypical conditions.

If you are convinced that water in fuel is a problem for you, then go down to your garden equipment seller and get some Briggs and Stratton fuel additive. It is cheap and will treat a large quantity of fuel.

Ref. David Korotney, report to fuel studies and standards branch of the us environmental protection agency, 1995

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously charles_bovington wrote:

That ethanol containing petrol (gasoline) is a problem with tanks sealed with some materials andt you may well need to change your fuel lines, but I know no reason why it should be bad for engines. We used to seek out Cleveland 25% alcohol fuel in the 1950's because it was highly rated.I have seen no scientific evidence that E5 or E10 is bad for engines. There does seem to be a lot of paranoia about!

well Charles there is a big difference as the 1950s to 1970S Cleveland and National Benzene these where made from coal tars and distilled to make alcohol benzine fuel , where as this new stuff it made from parm cornels and sugar cane, that why you get a stick mess in your tank some times and it de-soloves rubbers some plastics and some alloys too and fiber glass tanks as well , so there you are, check out the FBHVC web site it tells you on there, all about it, yours anna j

Hi All,

while we're taking this nostalgia trip down Fuel Memory Lane, who remembers the ICI Petrol-that-wasn't-Petrol?

I remember that it smelled funny and engines seemed to run very cool with it, it was said to be made from Petro-Chemical by-products that would otherwise have been flared off, possibly the same toxic aromatics that were later sold to us as 'Green' unleaded fuel, anybody know what it was?

Niall, my Dad used to buy it every so often, he said it was made from coal. But I don't recall any melting and paint stripping issues, as with this Ethanol.

Charles, Roger Parker has written quite a bit on the dangers of Ethanol in 'Enjoying MG' magazine. With regard to phase separation, his advise is to fill the tank before laying up, say for the winter and place cling film or equivalent under the vented filler cap. Yes phase separation can happen, more likely in a car that is less likely to be rocked about .

There are several reports of Ethanol attacks in roadholder. One example is Mr Horsefield's Commando freshly painted tank. (Roadholder April 2013) A few spilt drops blistered the laquer.

Charles, if you want ethanol in your fuel, just visit your local Tesco. Outside of SW England there is still BP Ultimate, at least for now offering E0..

Why suffer these issues when E0 eliminates them. Simples!

The Ethanol problem is not going away and very soon will actually get far worse when the EU force all fuel suppliers to make their products to E10 standard to help cut down on imported oil.

2 years ago, I watched the fibreglass tank, on my Dommie cafe racer, disolve inside a month after filling up with 'leaded' 4 star obtained from one of the few suppliers still around. Then I discovered the fuel tubing melting on my Commando followed by the internals of its previously excellent SU carb. All caused by the Ethanol in the fuel supplied by my local garages.The expense of trying to overcome these problems with tank linings and fuel additives ran into hundreds of pounds. Then I came across an item called a 'fuel cat' which you just dump inside the petrol tank. OK it cost about £20 but, from then on, it saved me buying bottles of lead sub and octane booster. Which were costing around £5 a pot and only lasting 2 tankfuls.

Like many people, I was quite sceptical of its claimed qualities but wasamazed to find that it actually worked. I now get smoother running, no fouled plugs, no Ethanol related problems and can leave my bikes stored and use them months later without the fuel having gone stale.

Returning to the plug issue mentioned at the top of this thread. My Magneto fired 99 ran very well (for 30 years) on Champion N5s which were replaced every 20,000 miles. I tried NGK plugs for a while but must have used the wrong grade as they would always run ok for about 1000 miles then suddenly die. My Atlas used electronic ignition and ran brilliantly on Champion N4 or NKG BP7ES. When I popped a Commando head on the barrels it also ran well with Champion N7Y plugs. Nobody has ever explained, to me, why a 99 can not use N7Y plugs???

Hi Neil,

Firstly apologies to the webmaster - maybe this should be a new thread.

I take it you are in the MGOC. I have three MGBs - a 1963, a 1964 and a 1972 GT as well as three lightweight Nortons At the end of the season I disconnect the rubber fuel pipe at the carbs, on the MGs and drain the fuel into a can - simply switch on the ignition and the electric fuel pump will empty the tank in a short time.. It's even easier to drain the Nortons. Put the batteries on charge over the winter.

Then fill with fresh fuel and octane booster at the start of the year. I use the old fuel in the lawn mower which seems to run on anything.

Yes I agree that ethanol does cause some aggravation. I have changed all old rubber pipes/seals for modern items which wasn't a big job. The Nortons have the old copper floats in the carbs and they seem to cope without problems. Yes it definitely does dissolve Petseal -first hand experience of this - but modern tank liner seems to cope OK. Petrol splashes always did damage paintwork so that's not entirely new.

Surely the reason for ethanol in fuel is the necessity to find an alternative fuel to traditional mineral oil fuels. Way back in the 1980's we were told that the world supply of oil would run out by the year 2000 and we would have to limit the use of internal combustion engines. So what is the up to date position - is world oil supply now plentiful ?

Patrick.

Hi All,

As for N7Y plugs, leaving aside the Ethanol question, you can use them, I have used N9Y Mini plugs, but they don't last long because they are unable to conduct enough heat out and the electrodes recede quite quickly, that is why we need a harder plug like an N4C, if you just poodled about they would probably last a good while, and will start easier too.

As for the ICI petrol, no it didn't attack tanks O rings etc, and it was excellent fuel, my friend had a Rover 105S which would pink on anything but 5-Star, but it ran sweet as a nut on ICI 4-star, when they stopped selling ICI petrol he filled it up one last time and put it in the paper!

As for the ''we can still get E-free fuel, why worry?' argument, thats fine for now, but we will be lucky if its still available in 2 years, and I for one, will still be riding then.

Does anyone know of anywhere still selling the Bayford 4 Star? The last one in Lancashire stopped about7 years ago, the last time I got any was in Chesterfield about 4 years back, why did it stop, was it lack of sales?

I use the Fuel Cat in my Velocette and it works, insofar as preventing pre-ignition and fuel degradation in the tank.

I still think that the plug fouling problem is due to some additive, probably a metallic compound, rather than the Ethanol itself, it may even be that the tank liner/O ring/float destruction is not due to Ethanol itself, but something else that the oil companies are dumping in it and allowing us the privilege of paying for.

I met a Petrol-Chemical engineer once who told me that unleaded petrol was the biggest commercial con trick in history, that the oil companies used it as a way of selling to the public stuff that was so toxic that you couldn't even get a licence to store it, and that the sheer brilliance of it was that they got the Green Movement to campaign for it on their behalf! Because of this I cannot help but wonder what they are mixing in to these fuels, because as others have already stated, the alcohol based fuels of the past did not have these dramatic side-effects.

We will have no choice but to pay for whatever they dish up, I do hope that we will still be able to get some kind of fuel that our bikes can digest, if people think it fanciful, the Steam locomotive movement are wondering where they will get Steam Coal from once the current stocks have gone, whoever thought that it would be lack of coal that would finally kill them off, in a country that had 400 years worth of minable coal, now mostly unextractable.

well to night our chairman Harry Atkinson as received his Bosch W 8DTC plugs He then put down what he as experienced with them while in uses , you know my thoughts now as for Ethanol taking paint of your tank its happend too me on filling up , and I ended up repainting the tank then on ebay I found the spray can of lacquer thats ANTI- Ethanol lacquer so I got some And give it a try out its now two years have past and the paint work is still like the day it was done, so the lacquer works very well indeed But cannot remember what make it was, so I have to have a look on my computer to see if I save it to folder , let you know later on , yours Anna J

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This business of fouling plugs - I thought it had been alleged before that modern cars keep their plugs free of soot because fuel is metered so accurately. So the plug manufacturers (allegedly) no longer glaze the ceramic insulator. But on old machines with relatively crude fuel metering the soot still deposits but is now not self-cleaning and indeed cannot be cleaned. Without any glaze, fuel soaks the soot into the ceramic and HT tracking results.So we have at least two things coming together - fuel and spark plugs are both less and less suitable for old machines. The temporary solution for plugs might presumably be to buy old ones from jumbles until the supply runs out.

Previously Niall Topping wrote:

Hi All,

As for N7Y plugs, leaving aside the Ethanol question, you can use them, I have used N9Y Mini plugs, but they don't last long because they are unable to conduct enough heat out and the electrodes recede quite quickly, that is why we need a harder plug like an N4C, if you just poodled about they would probably last a good while, and will start easier too.

As for the ICI petrol, no it didn't attack tanks O rings etc, and it was excellent fuel, my friend had a Rover 105S which would pink on anything but 5-Star, but it ran sweet as a nut on ICI 4-star, when they stopped selling ICI petrol he filled it up one last time and put it in the paper!

As for the ''we can still get E-free fuel, why worry?' argument, thats fine for now, but we will be lucky if its still available in 2 years, and I for one, will still be riding then.

Does anyone know of anywhere still selling the Bayford 4 Star? The last one in Lancashire stopped about7 years ago, the last time I got any was in Chesterfield about 4 years back, why did it stop, was it lack of sales?

I use the Fuel Cat in my Velocette and it works, insofar as preventing pre-ignition and fuel degradation in the tank.

I still think that the plug fouling problem is due to some additive, probably a metallic compound, rather than the Ethanol itself, it may even be that the tank liner/O ring/float destruction is not due to Ethanol itself, but something else that the oil companies are dumping in it and allowing us the privilege of paying for.

I met a Petrol-Chemical engineer once who told me that unleaded petrol was the biggest commercial con trick in history, that the oil companies used it as a way of selling to the public stuff that was so toxic that you couldn't even get a licence to store it, and that the sheer brilliance of it was that they got the Green Movement to campaign for it on their behalf! Because of this I cannot help but wonder what they are mixing in to these fuels, because as others have already stated, the alcohol based fuels of the past did not have these dramatic side-effects.

We will have no choice but to pay for whatever they dish up, I do hope that we will still be able to get some kind of fuel that our bikes can digest, if people think it fanciful, the Steam locomotive movement are wondering where they will get Steam Coal from once the current stocks have gone, whoever thought that it would be lack of coal that would finally kill them off, in a country that had 400 years worth of minable coal, now mostly unextractable.

Dear Niall,

Your Petro Chemical engineer was either misinformed or from another planet. Tetra Ethyl Lead, co-invented by the worlds largest oil company and the worlds largest auto manufacture, is the really toxic stuff both to produce and to store.

The development of modern lead free petrol was a costly pain in the neck for the oil companies and was driven by environmental regulations of emissions which required the phasing out of TEL in petrol because it poisons the 3-way catalysts used to meet these emissions standards. The initial octane booster was tertiary butyl methyl ether which in turn was found to be a toxic hazard and thus has been replaces by Ethanol . No conspiracy, just lots of expense for the oil companies. Lots of happy farmers profiting from the need for feedstock for ethanol production.

Incidentally, the ICI petrol was synthesized from Coal by processes also used by Germany in WW2 and by SASOL in South Africa during the boycott years. It was blended with TEL and was a high quality product, but was expensive to produce.

This has turned out to be one of the most interesting threads I have read and in a way it will be sad to conclude it when Robert reports back with his 'Ultimate' carb settings. Until then I thought I'd add to and in some cases subtract from what is already said here.

First, Charles: The conspiracy with current Ethanol fuelis that it was introduced by stealth. Our stake holders the FBHVCwould have been aware of its introduction but kept quiet. The problems that this has caused to many did not happen with previous fuels. Appreciated that tank sealants are something withinthe last 30 years but consider all of the other failures, including modern plastic tanks. Yes Leaded fuel was a hazard and I believe its inventor died from lead poisoning. However, I'm not aware of it damaging motor parts or aggressively attacking paint work likeE5. 4 Star Leaded should be made to BS 40/40 and not contain Ethanol. There is a standard for unleaded petrol with zero Ethanol, that is BS 70/70. What kind of a standard is EN228? Agreed that ICI petrol was made from coal and was indeed good stuff that again caused none of the problems that Ethanol causes. The advert used to say:ICI, 'That's my petrol.' As for the catalytic converters, these were developed to turn harmful Co (Carbon monoxide) into relatively harmless (DfT words not mine) Co2 (Carbon dioxide) The next trick was then to tax vehicles not on weight, engine size or horse power but Co2 emissions. The latest EU scam is to limit vacuum cleaners to 1,600 watts to stop global warming, I askyou as I write waiting for this mercury filled light bulb to warm up enough to allow me to see.

Why are we using Ethanol, when clearly BP Ultimate is fine without it? It is because the government have a target of 15% renewables by 2020, as set down in the Ed MilibandClimate Change Act of 2008. Currently there are too many objections to wind turbines and solar energy and so increasing the level of bio in fuels is a way of getting closer to their renewables target, currently around 5%. Remember, all of this is political, not scientific.

I have listened to some riders say that Ethanol is here to stay. Well not necessarily. In the USA there is a choice and some States have actually opposed having Ethanol but it is certainly not forced on the people. Since the US shale gas bonanza the bottom has dropped out of the Ethanol market and the writing is on the wall. With starving people all over the world and growing populations, land for food rather than fuel is the current thinking. A Green nut job, writing for the Guardian; George Mombiot, used to rant over what he called 'peak oil' while more recently he has changed his tune to the world being awash with oil. .So, here is what one publication said about the future of growing corn for Ethanol more recently:

'The âgale of shaleâ is hitting the US and the world with surplus energy. In 2000, shale was 2% of natural gas supply; in 2012, it was about 37%; and will be about 65% within the next two decades. The US is poised for shipping out shale gas in liquefied form as net exporter of energy. American motorists are consuming less gasoline, thereby limiting the blend of biofuels like ethanol. The âenergy securityâ lobby of the US is no longer supportive of biofuels. With sufficiency and viability of shale gas, the future demand of ethanol will shrink, resulting into demand compression of corn, especially in the US, and its price will move southwards in the coming years'. --Tejinder Narang, The Financial Express, 19 August 2014

Remember, it is only silly renewable targets that means the government want as much Ethanol in our petrol as they can get away with. Your Norton's future is not a worry to the folks at the DfT. In fact one communication suggested that there wouldn't be any carburratedvehicles on the road after 2018. If E10 is all we have they will be right while this Ethanol business is just accepted as inevitable. Demanding E0 is easily possible.

Finally on spark plugs: I remember my Dad taking plugs down to the local garage to be sandblasted. I mentioned this to Richard Deeks, who sells plugs, amongst other old bikeelectrical parts. He told me that modern plugs were only good for a light clean and certainly not sand blasting!

Happy riding folks while you still can. I hope to do my annual trip to Whitbyon my exWD16H on Sunday, weather permitting.And yes, I'll be carrying a spare Champion D9. You never know!

Previously charles_bovington wrote:

Previously Niall Topping wrote:

Hi All,

As for N7Y plugs, leaving aside the Ethanol question, you can use them, I have used N9Y Mini plugs, but they don't last long because they are unable to conduct enough heat out and the electrodes recede quite quickly, that is why we need a harder plug like an N4C, if you just poodled about they would probably last a good while, and will start easier too.

As for the ICI petrol, no it didn't attack tanks O rings etc, and it was excellent fuel, my friend had a Rover 105S which would pink on anything but 5-Star, but it ran sweet as a nut on ICI 4-star, when they stopped selling ICI petrol he filled it up one last time and put it in the paper!

As for the ''we can still get E-free fuel, why worry?' argument, thats fine for now, but we will be lucky if its still available in 2 years, and I for one, will still be riding then.

Does anyone know of anywhere still selling the Bayford 4 Star? The last one in Lancashire stopped about7 years ago, the last time I got any was in Chesterfield about 4 years back, why did it stop, was it lack of sales?

I use the Fuel Cat in my Velocette and it works, insofar as preventing pre-ignition and fuel degradation in the tank.

I still think that the plug fouling problem is due to some additive, probably a metallic compound, rather than the Ethanol itself, it may even be that the tank liner/O ring/float destruction is not due to Ethanol itself, but something else that the oil companies are dumping in it and allowing us the privilege of paying for.

I met a Petrol-Chemical engineer once who told me that unleaded petrol was the biggest commercial con trick in history, that the oil companies used it as a way of selling to the public stuff that was so toxic that you couldn't even get a licence to store it, and that the sheer brilliance of it was that they got the Green Movement to campaign for it on their behalf! Because of this I cannot help but wonder what they are mixing in to these fuels, because as others have already stated, the alcohol based fuels of the past did not have these dramatic side-effects.

We will have no choice but to pay for whatever they dish up, I do hope that we will still be able to get some kind of fuel that our bikes can digest, if people think it fanciful, the Steam locomotive movement are wondering where they will get Steam Coal from once the current stocks have gone, whoever thought that it would be lack of coal that would finally kill them off, in a country that had 400 years worth of minable coal, now mostly unextractable.

Dear Niall,

Your Petro Chemical engineer was either misinformed or from another planet. Tetra Ethyl Lead, co-invented by the worlds largest oil company and the worlds largest auto manufacture, is the really toxic stuff both to produce and to store.

The development of modern lead free petrol was a costly pain in the neck for the oil companies and was driven by environmental regulations of emissions which required the phasing out of TEL in petrol because it poisons the 3-way catalysts used to meet these emissions standards. The initial octane booster was tertiary butyl methyl ether which in turn was found to be a toxic hazard and thus has been replaces by Ethanol . No conspiracy, just lots of expense for the oil companies. Lots of happy farmers profiting from the need for feedstock for ethanol production.

Incidentally, the ICI petrol was synthesized from Coal by processes also used by Germany in WW2 and by SASOL in South Africa during the boycott years. It was blended with TEL and was a high quality product, but was expensive to produce.

Hi Charles,

Perhaps the guy was from another planet, or misinformed, I don't know, but he was definitely a Petro-Chemical engineer, when I met him he was just about to retire from a long career at a large petro-chemical manufacturing plant which had previously belonged to a household name multi-national oil company.

What he railed at was not the removal of TEL from petrol, it is beyond doubt highly toxic and has an accumulative tendency in Human Tissue, although much of the credit for reduction of lead in childrens bones in countries which were early discontinuers of TEL in fuel, actually should be credited to removal of lead from cosmetics, paint on toys, school pencils and, most importantly, the phasing out and replacement of lead plumbing in water supply pipes in soft water areas, all of which started before TEL was even invented.

What he considered criminal was the cynical introduction of what he called 'aromatics' to fuel for no better reason than that they burned and the oil industry wanted to get rid of them, even though some of them were highly toxic themselves and far more readily absorbed into the human body, without any legislative oversight or research into long-term effects. The green lobby campaigned hard for the removal of lead from fuel, not the introduction of all this other junk. He told me that the oil industry wanted to do this because the removal of TEL (which they had to buy from the holders of extremely tighly written patents, or their territorial licence holders) from fuel, and its replacement with their own waste products would massively increase their profits, this was 20 years ago, now we, the customers, facilitate this even more by giving tax breaks to the producers of Ethanol, which the oil companies sell on to us, with no reduction in price. He told me that promising research into lesser or non toxic anti-knock additives had been scrapped because this option ticked all the boxes. Meanwhile the amount of arable land devoted to Ethanol production, reduces world food production and pushes other prices up, increasing profits for more multi-nationals.

Like I said, maybe he was telling porkies, but he seemed very convincing, even to me, who normally regards scientists as second only to politicians not to believe, after all, these were the people who thought it would be a good idea to fire hydrogen bombs into the stratosphere and detonate them, just to see what effect it would have on the weather, now look at it, coincidence, or conspiracy theory, the choice is yours!

Policy is made by people who do are either too stupid to understand basic physics and chemistry or, more likely, are forced to pedal barmy ideas so as to buy votes from the self-styled 'Greens' who hold the balance of political power in the heart of the European Empire in Germany.In 2017 it will be illegal to sell vacuum cleaners with over 700 watts. The only way they will work is to have narrower nozzles so it will take twice as long to clean the carpet as a 1400 watt machine. So the total power consumed will be the same; and they are too idiotic to understand. Furthermore we shall spend more time on such tasks; thereby shortening our aggregate useful and enjoyable lives and thus effectively killing thousands of people per year. (Every 8760 lost hours is a year off a life)Logically if they want to reduce engine emissions by taxation they should simply increase the tax on fuel. But they would rather create a vastly complex system based on theoretical fuel consumption instead - so once you have taxed your Bugatti Veyron you might as well use it to the full.Don't blame scientists. They can give us nuclear power which is the greenest and safest form we have and steadfastly refuses to commit mass murder even when people do daft things with it. Fossil fuel should only be used for transport.I think I shall report my own mail to the webmaster for being overtly political...And anyway - what is the best needle for a 99? Are there many different ones? And is groove number 1 at the top or at the bottom?