1960 Norton Navigator Rebuild

Ulrich, I'll have a look in my box of bits!

That's pretty common, mine is a flat aluminium plate too but with no sump plug, they were replaced because they distort easily. The club sells the gauze filter it's attached to flat piece of lead that acts as the gasket to the plate.

Ive fitted an external oil filter anyway, I attached it to the rear of the central channel at the bottom, but I'm using an aluminium mudguard which means I can make room. I,m not sure how far an original mudguard extends below the swing arm?

Dan

deleted by

Fritz

Ulrich,

I don't think that is original, there is a pic of the club one in the spares section

dan

Hi Ulrich,

I agree that this is not original. The original prop stand was an optional extra and as far as I know was BOLTED to the bottom stud where the front down tube meets the bottom frame rails. The mounting bracket for yours appears to be welded on to the bottom frame rail. If you look at the Norton Spare Parts List you can see why someone welded on the bracket where they did.

I don't think I have ever seen a Jubilee or Navigator with the original stand. Only one of mine has a side stand and that's not an original.

Patrick

Hi Ulrich,

To the best of my knowledge the Navigator originally came out late in 1960 and was described as being a 1961 model and there were no such thing as paint codes then.

Black and dove grey was certainly a Navigator De Luxe colour for 1961 as I have a 1961 De Luxe, My Standard Navigator is painted polychromatic red with a black frame - I know this is actually a later colour (about 1963/64) so I expect polychromatic blue was also from this later year. The polychromatic red is a metallic colour and Rover Nightfire Red is a pretty close match or so I have been told.

Maybe someone else can give you a better answer.

Patrick.

Previously Ulrich Hoffmann wrote:

The frame parts are back from powdercoating .

Now in dove gray aka RAL 1013 pearl white.

Engine is back in the frame.

Unfortunatly one barrel has a crack which I found out after sandblasting. I can use a sleeve from the NOC shop but the engine specialist wants 200.- Euros for the work to fit it into the cylinder.

And I still have no pistons for it.

Hi, there is a pair of +10 pistons on the Web site NOC Shop, or I think if you offer Dan a bun he might have a pair for sale. My advice would be if you see it and it looks part right -buy it. Navigator parts are almost as rare as hens teeth. You will find people say "hard to find", that is an understatement... I was lucky and my engine builder happened to have a pair of +30s. If it were not for him I would have bought the liners and +10s. currently Navigator pistons over +10 are pushing £140 or so each - eek.

Hi Ulrich,

That looks a superb job painting the frame -there are so many separate little bits. Why did you take the centre stand apart ?

Patrick

Hi Ulrich,

As Fritz and you probably have the only two Navigators in Germany I doubt if anyone will ever query your colour match - so if you are happy that is all that matters. I can't remember the last time I saw a lightweight Norton in blue,- maybe Andy Sochanik could give you an opinion as he has had his Navigator for very many years. I can't remember what colour his Navigator is.

Patrick.

There's a pic of him with a blue navi somewhere I've seen it! There was a very original blue one at Bristol last year too. My jubilee had a blue frame and silver tank, looked cool to me, but I was only 17!

Ah his is blue and black https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=blue+navigator+norton&client=safari&hl=en-gb&prmd=isvn&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYufK9lMzPAhUnJMAKHTCEC9MQ_AUIBygB&biw=1024&bih=649#imgrc=Js9DD6WQ8lYzBM%3A

Not seen a blue and cream on either.

Dan

In the pictures Andy's bike looks to be the later colours - polychromatic blue and a black frame; later silencers as well. I think these came in about October 1962 (officially the 1963 model). For the 1961 model year the Standard Navigator was 'blue' and had the Dove Grey frame. Atlantic blue was certainly a possibility as this colour was used on some models of the Dominators.

The Polychromatic paint is a metallic paint and applied as a base coat and lacquer over a silver or gold ? base colour. It is not an easy paint to spray but it gives a superb finish when properly applied.

Hi Ulrich,

I think that is not the best place to mount the powerbox as it is too close to the carburettor intake. Best to keep electrics as far away from petrol as possible. Dan has fitted a powerbox on his bike so hopefully he will be along soon to say where he fitted it. I have the rectifier on mine mounted on the back of the channel section -i.e facing the back mudguard and a zenor diode mounted on a heat sink under the headlight.

Do you think the Wipac rotor will work OK with the Commando stator? I know you can mix some Lucas and Wipac parts. Anyway you can always fit the Wipac stator.

Patrick

Ulrich, Try rubbing down the powder coating with coarse Wet n Dry paper to expose the frame number but do this with much caution. The number is normally stamped more deeply on early frames which yours should be. Later frames tended to be stamped very poorly and you can rub the number away very easily. Or you could speak to the powder coater - I think they use a special type of thinners to remove old powder coating. The Wet n Dry paper worked for me and I then sprayed the bare metal with a clear lacquer to keep the number visible and avoid rust.

You say your number is on the LEFT side. As far as I know all Lightweights had the number stamped on the RIGHT side. That is the right side while sitting on the bike.

Patrick

Hi, I don't have a power box I have one of Als solid state regulator/rectifiers which I also mounted befind the rear channel. I also have Boyer elec ign ant put that box in the battery case, it just fits in the small space on the left of the battery protected with rubber mat.

dan

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

Hi Dan,

Yes I would agree with your bottom two photos as well. Ulrich quoted the part number as 20849 for the early 'spindle clamping pin'which agrees to the 1959/1961 Spare Parts Lists. This phrase "spindle clamping pin" is how Norton phrased it in the original Spare Parts List. It is simply the clamping bolt.

Apparently there was a reason why Norton uprated the clamping bolt to the quarter inch size ; if the Jubilee engine was regularly taken up to valve bounce- around 9000 rpm- the original bolt could slacken off and the push rod could jump off the ball of the rocker. I presume that Norton had quite a few warranty claims for damaged engines. It has happened to me but strangely enough nothing in the engine actually broke !. I could ride the bike home on the one working cylinder and simply readjusted the tappets, relocked the clamping bolt and all was well.

Patrick

=============

Sorry to come so late in the day on this one.

The Spindle Clamp pin (as you all suggest) got bigger around the time the Electra was born - but probably was nothing to do with it. The earlier smaller clamp pin could bend when overtightened & it could let go. I too have ridden home on one cylinder when this happened. Always fit the later Clamp Pin #24187 if you can (rather than the thinner #20849 pin).

Beware - its not just a case of opening up the holes - the new pin will have a new Centre Line.

Seems NOC spares have neither in stock at present to compare.

Previously Ulrich Hoffmann wrote:

The frame parts are back from powdercoating .

Now in dove gray aka RAL 1013 pearl white.

Engine is back in the frame.

Unfortunatly one barrel has a crack which I found out after sandblasting. I can use a sleeve from the NOC shop but the engine specialist wants 200.- Euros for the work to fit it into the cylinder.

And I still have no pistons for it.

================

Again - apologies for tardy answer.

1) Colours for standard Navigator in 1961/62 were Blue & Dove Grey. The Blue closely resembles Ford Fjord Blue & Dove Grey closely resembles British Leyland Arabian Grey. Neither colour is metallic.

2) I too would not expect to see the centre stand dismantled.

See photo of one I built earlier - which can be seen on the website under 'Models'

Attachments
from-front-jpg

Previously Ulrich Hoffmann wrote:

The frame parts are back from powdercoating .

Now in dove gray aka RAL 1013 pearl white.

Engine is back in the frame.

Unfortunatly one barrel has a crack which I found out after sandblasting. I can use a sleeve from the NOC shop but the engine specialist wants 200.- Euros for the work to fit it into the cylinder.

And I still have no pistons for it.

================

Previously andy_sochanik wrote:

Again - apologies for tardy answer.

1) Colours for standard Navigator in 1961/62 were Blue & Dove Grey. The Blue closely resembles Ford Fjord Blue & Dove Grey closely resembles British Leyland Arabian Grey. Neither colour is metallic.

2) I too would not expect to see the centre stand dismantled.

See photo of one I built earlier - which can be seen on the website under 'Models'

1961 = grey seat

1962 = black seat

Fun illy enough I have a stand with a bent centre strut too. Not sure about the spring, i know the spring mounting hooks were different, but not sure to what extent?

The centre stand on Jubilees and Navigators had a reputation for being weak and bending but it is easily bent back into proper shape. The 'crossbar' is probably brazed into the uprights but I don't know as I have never seen one come apart before.

I don't know how the later springs differ. Andy is the likely man to know the answer.

Yes that looks much better. They can be hard to find so you have done well.

Previously Dan Field wrote:

Fun illy enough I have a stand with a bent centre strut too. Not sure about the spring, i know the spring mounting hooks were different, but not sure to what extent?

Hi Dan,

The different springs were introduced with the later Norton Lightweight gearbox. The gearbox design necessitated a change in position of the lower rear engine mounting stud. The spring action rotates about this stud.

Along with this change, others had to be made too. The hooked centrestand spring top support bracket changed. The centre stand spring changed. The frame centre channel changed.

Early lightweights had very little tension in the centre stand spring when it was up. This meant that on undulating rods the stand would often flap up and down. The change of stud position shortened the distance between stud and crossbar on stand, exacerbating the problem. Hence shorter stronger spring and altered hooked support bracket. The centrestand on Electra, with later gearbox, also became heavier with it's added foot pedal.

IMHO the tube between centre stand legs is very weak, can rust through where the spring contacts, and is easily twisted. Best to ,make sure both feet of the stand are sharing the weight of the bike as you start to lift onto stand.

Both springs are available from Martyn Bratby, No 1 The Coachhouse Works, Limepit Lane, Huntington, Cannock, South Staffs, WS12 4PA Tel 01543 572583 Mob 0777 2169524

Side by side the springs look about the same length. I suspect the early spring, with smaller diameter coils, is made of lighter gauge wire.

Peter

â?

Previously peter_holland1 wrote:

â?IMHO the tube between centre stand legs is very weak, can rust through where the spring contactsâ?

Peter

So this tube has to be exchanged with a rougher one

Fritz

Hi Ulrich,

Sounds mysterious. If the stand fitted before it should fit again. Looking at your picture of the centre stand the inner spacer is not in the picture. (There are two outer spacers and one inner spacer). Are you fitting the outer spacers the wrong way round ? They seem much thicker than my recollection of them. All my bikes are now in Winter quarters so I can't easily have a look.

Patrick.

Brilliant, now I know what the stand stop looks like, thanks Ulrich!

Ulrich,

I completely agree with your fixing of the spacers- so it's a mystery why the stand doesn't fit. The spacers/bushes are very similar in design to the NOCshop modified items and should be superior to the standard Norton item as they help to stop the stand bending.

Is it possible that it's due to a build-up of the powder coating on the mating surfaces ,i.e the faces of the spacers/the channel section/the stand? The original parts had only a thin coat of cellulose paint and the mating faces of the spacers probably wasn't painted at all.

Yes you're right about the Jubilee(17) and Navigator(19) frame numbers. Will this cause you much problem with registration in Germany? The frame number on the right hand side could be 9062? 19.(missing a digit) In my limited experience the 17 or 19 comes after the number ON THE FRAME but oddly enough on all my UK REGISTRATION DOCUMENTS the 17 or 19 is at the start of the number. I don't know why this should be. The Club dating officer could be the best man to verify for you.

Patrick

Nice easy fix ... result!!

Hi Ulrich,

I don't want to be a pessimist but I think you will still have a problem when you come to refit your frame side rails. The outside edge of the top of the stand seems to be out of line with the spacers where the footrest bar fits through. It might just be an optical illusion (I hope so) in the picture but it looks as if the stand is too wide at the top. You might have to file down the stand spacers to get the frame side rails to line up. I hope I'm wrong and I am sure you will succeed.

Patrick

Your before picture is fine - so hopefully it all pulls together properly when you get your frame rails back.

The oil pipes are easy to sort; the small pipe on the return line-oil tank front- connects to the rockers ( approx 22 inches of 3/16 bore oil grade pipe needed), The pipe at the top rear of the oil tank connects to the engine breather (approx 24 inches of 1/4 bore oil grade pipe) and the other pipe connects to the rear chain guard ( approx 20 inches of 1/4 bore oil grade pipe.

These dimensions were given to me in 1994 by T Brock and Ray Sage of the NOC.

You might have some problem in getting these old imperial bore sizes now but the nearest metric should be fine.

Patrick.

Don't forget in the final build up to fit the mud flap at the bottom of the frame channel section. This is supposed to prevent dirt from the back wheel being thrown around the back of the engine.

The mud flap is held on by the same two bolts/nuts which hold the stand stop on. My Navigator De Luxe has what might be an original mud flap and it seems to be made of some sort of compressed fibre board. It looks very poor quality and I doubt if it's waterproof but it has lasted 55 years - best to make one out of plastic. It's only about 10cm wide x 9cm deep.

Your stand stop in your picture looks a home made item but it should do the job OK.

Patrick.

Yes, I found out too that it wasn't some kind of cushion behind the stop (which didn't make much sense anyway) but I copied what I had. Obviously it was the remnants of a mud flap. I didn't think of it as anything else because of the material it was made out of. I'll make one out of rubber for it now I know. I'm pleased to see in your photo where the round rubber bumper goes. I bought one and couldn't figure out where it went - now I know.