Keep asking - cos I'm lea…
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Previously George Phillips…
Previously George Phillips wrote:
Sorry that I seem to be hogging this forum but just when I thought everything was generally OK I find oil hissing out from the joint between the back of the timing cover and the Lucas magdyno (up the top at the drive end). My spares book doesn't show any seal there so what stops oil escaping? Could it be that there is no seal and I've got a blocked timing case drain? I don't want to start stripping it all until I know what I'm looking for. Thanks for any help.
Similarjoint on minehas a largepiece ofcarpet felt set in there. dont have it touching the shaft just a ring of thestuff. Though "hissing" out suggestsitspressurising. First offI would check yourbreathersystem and thequantity of oil in your crankcases....
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No Jonathan - "hissing" ou…
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There isn't a seal but th…
There isn't a seal but there shouldn't be enough oil in there to leak out. Should only be a mist of oil to lubricate the timing chain. Should also be a breather at the bottom with a metal pipe that lets any excess oil drain away.I wonder ifthat breather could be blocked? My '55 ES2 gets virtually no oil in there, to the extent that I occasionally lubricate the timing chain manually.
I like the carpet seal solution but some proper felt would be nicer.
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Hi George. Just been out i…
Hi George. Just been out in the garage and checked mine. There is a gap of at least a 1/16 inch between the mag and the back of the timing cover. Have now completed 750 miles over winter since its rebuild and not a drop has appeared around that area. As I understand it oil mist is meant to pass the inlet cam bush, lube the mag chain then any excess to to vent off from the pipe. I have owned 6 ES2's over 45 years, all have dripped from the vent pipe but none have ever leaked oil from the mag. area. John
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Thanks John and Ian. When…
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Thanks John and Ian. When…
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If the drain isn't blocke…
If the drain isn't blocked then there is an excess of oil entering the area via the cam bush.
If it's greasy and gungy then I'd suspect that a previous owner has filled the whole chain area with grease which is not the intention at all.
If you use a long pointy thing to retain them then it is quite possible to remove the timing cover without disturbing the cam wheels and timing...but if the bushes need replacing and reaming then it probably will be necessary to remove everything as the bushes in the crankcase will be worn too.
My first step would be to remove the chain cover, give everything a clean and reassemble with nothing more than a fingertip of grease along the chain run. It doesn't need a lot - vintage magneto chains ran exposed.
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I think I'm right in sayi…
I think I'm right in saying that the oil pressure relief valve lets oil into the timing case, and from there into the mag chain case if it is blowing. Although this should drain out of the pipe at the bottom, so shouldn't cause your problem so long as the pipe isn't blocked. It might be worth you investigating this although it will require removal of the timing case, which in turn will require the mag chain coming off......... . Perhaps do the other simple checks first!
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Thanks guys, Richard - the…
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Hi George, Have you checke…
Hi George,
Have you checked the inlet camshaft bush? In my c ase, I have to turned a new one, because it had too much side play.
Unlike the exhaust camshaft, the inlet camshaft drives the magdyno chain, which sometimes could have been set too tight.
The exhaust cam bush has a spiral groove for lubrication along the entirely lenght, while the inlet camshaft bush reaches only half way from the inner side, thus avoiding any excess of oil reaching the magdyno chain area.
Hope this help.
Hans from Chile.
P.S. Attached a photograph of the new inlet camshaft bush. (on the right).
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Thanks Hans.Something else…
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One for Dan - I removed th…
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I've resurrected this thr…
I've resurrected this thread rather than start a new one. The leak at the dynamo end was sorted. A new inlet cam bush has been fitted (some months ago, now) but oil now runs out of the timing ccase drain at the end of a run. A 40 mile jaunt more that fills the 100ml yogourt pot that I fitted as a catch pot. When I remove the pot to pour it back nto the oil tank the oil drain drips to the point of almost running out. There is a mass of oil getting in there. Surely it can only enter via the inlet camshaft bush? Maybe I was over zealous in my reaming? Could I solder the grooves on the inner side of the bush. Any bright ideas?
Cheers
George
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There isn't a huge amount…
There isn't a huge amount of oil inside the timing cover so there shouldn't be too much getting through the inlet bush. As you say, this is the only way oil can get in. I wonder whether you have slight wet sumping, and also whether your crankcase breather is working properly. If the crankcase is getting pressurised this may force oil out through the bush especially if you have been a bit over enthusiastic in reaming it.
Did you make sure the slot in the inner end of the bush was correctly orientated?
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Thanks Ian, I'm fairly ce…
Thanks Ian, I'm fairly certain the c/case vent (on the drive side) is clear. I recall removing the ball bearing some while ago and checking the tube for throughput.
Just remind me what "correct orientation" means?
G
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I thought I had a diagram…
I thought I had a diagram somewhere but can't lay my hands on it. The bushes have slots in their inner ends which need to be at a 45 degree angle but I can't remember which way round they go!
My diagram is probably if EM Franks's book which I only have in grubby hard copy.
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Why have they got to be at…
Why have they got to be at 45deg? Just out of interest. I'll do a bit of research as well.
George
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As I thought it was Edgar…
As I thought it was Edgar Frank's book, although he doesn't actually show the inlet bush in the timing cover. I would guess that the groove needs to be at right angles to the one in the timing chest however (not 45 degrees as I had thought). But someone will know better.....
Note what he says about the oilway being blocked off in the inlet bush.
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Very helpful, Ian. If I'm…
Very helpful, Ian. If I'm interpreting it correctly the groove in the cover bush should end up at right angles to the groove in the crankcase? What would happen of they inadvertently lined up? I'm guessing oil would run down the upper groove and straight out the bottom groove? I'm trying to figure of this can be the cause of my excessive oil transfer to the timing case. If the oilway were not blocked off I can see that that would allow more oil transfer.
George
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I don't really know and t…
I don't really know and there's nothing in the book to tell us. It's the only place I've seen that information - the official Norton book doesn't mention the bushes other than to say your dealer should fit them, and the Haycraft Pitman book, although generally helpful is equally silent.
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hello, i dont expect a rep…
hello, i dont expect a reply. but heres a photo of my 56 19s crank case showing oil holes in tops of the bushes
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Hi George, I'm following…
Hi George, I'm following this with interest - as you know I have the same problem with my 19S. Sorry to hear that the new bush did not solve the problem (but spares me a job!). The bush orientation highlighted by Ian sounds promising.
Some years ago Mike Pemberton overhauled the bottom end of my engine. Because of the oil loss from the inlet camshaft I asked him to check the condition of the bushes. He reported that they were in good condition and did not need to be changed. He reset the pressure relief valve as he said it was screwed in tight and would not have operated as intended, resulting in high oil pressure. After this work the rate of oil loss past the camshaft bush actually increased significantly. When the relief valve opens the excess oil is delivered to the camshaft gears so I wonder if part of the problem comes from an over supply of oil to this area.
Ian has also mentioned crankcase pressure as a possible contributing factor. I am not ruling that out but I have tried running with the standard one way ball valve, with an open breather, and with an Enfield "duck bill" tube on the breather pipe. I didn't notice any significant difference to how quickly the catch bottle filled. It might however be worth trying more sophisticated breathing arrangements involving reed valves that have been suggested in other threads on this site.
Ian McD
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I'm suspecting that the o…
I'm suspecting that the oil groove(s) in your inlet cam bush actually extends all the way to the end, which would allow the oil to pass straight into the mag drive. I'm interpreting Franks's comment to mean that the spiral groove should stop short of the end of the bush.
You can see from Barry's photo that the grooves in the crankshaft bushes go all the way through. If the inlet one in the timing cover is like this it will allow loads of oil through - and you may even be able to feel crankshaft pressure pulses on the end of the little drain pipe.
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I think we're homing in g…
I think we're homing in guys! So , when I get into the garage, I'll check the oil prv setting. Tighten it fully then back off 1.5 turns. If it set too high less oil will bypass and be squirted onto the timing gears and leaks may appear round the top end (on mine); if set too low, less will be bypassed and less leakage up top. I could try re-setting the prv to a slightly higher pressure (less bypassed onto gears) and see what happens. I guess I'll just get more leakage somewhere else!
Thanks for all your inputs. It's all very interesting.
BTW is it possible to solder a blockage into the bush groove?
George
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Oops. Fingers Phillips aga…
Oops. Fingers Phillips again! 2nd line should read "If set too low, MORE oil will be bypassed.."
George
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It should be possible to f…
It should be possible to fill the grooves with solder. You will need to clean off all traces of oil first. Easier with an uninstalled bush. You may have to apply the reamer again, to clean off any overspill.
Don't forget that the top end is fed with oil from the return side of the pump, so pressure adjustments on the feed side unlikely to affect the quantity reaching the top end.
I have also wondered if leaks from the pump, either from the pump/crankcase surface or from where the pump outlet spigot meets the outer case (fibre washer) could result in too much oil reaching the timing gears. Do you know if yours has a paper gasket behind the pump (none on mine)?
Ian McD
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Another thought - it might…
Another thought - it might be tricky to fill both grooves. The solder in the first one will probably run out when you heat the second one. Part full may be the best you can achieve. Might epoxy or JB Weld be easier? But you don't want anything that might debond in use.
Ian McD
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Some good points there Ian…
Some good points there Ian. Fair comment about the top end. I should have figured that. I don't need to fill the grooves, simply put a block in the groove to stop oil passing right through - if that is what's happening. I don't know about the paper washer. I don't really want to remove the timing cover at this stage. That's a winter job! I'll do some research on JB Weld. Actually, thinking this through, if I'm going to do anything by way of blocking the grooves the timing cover will have to come off. I still haven't had time to get into the garage and check what's going on with the t/chain cover removed. Many thanks for your input.
George
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You would probably be able…
You would probably be able to see if the oil grooves go right through if you take the mag sprocket off the inlet spindle......
I've used JB weld for all sorts of things and it's excellent but does need absolutely oil free conditions to stick properly.
The current NOC spares list shows the proper bush (C2/19) available - £16.85......
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It does say in the Edgar F…
It does say in the Edgar Franks book that the oilway on the inlet cam bush is stopped off before the end, as also pointed out by Hans in his March 11th 2016 post. It could therefore be that you were supplied with the wrong bush, designed for the crankcase end, where the oilways pass right through. If so, it may be best to obtain the correct bush, rather than attempting to block off your existing one.
Ian
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I've just checked the pap…
I've just checked the paperwork, Ian, and the 3 bushes I ordered (it took 3 for me to master the art of reaming!) are all from NOC and noted as C2/19. Pity - I thought you might be on to something there!
George
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Finally managed to get int…
Finally managed to get into the garage and check some of the points you've all raised. Many thanks.
Removed t/chain cover and observed oil seepage on fast tickover plus a few blasts. Couldn't actually see it coming through but could see it trickling out the bottom of the t/c case.
Also checked breather from crank case (the one that points at the drive chain) and all OK. Puffing and blowing like Gordon Pirie (who?).
So my conclusion is a badly reamed bush.I doubt the camshaft is at fault? Is it possible to fit a centre pop in my stand drill and use it to keep the reamer central as I ream the next bush vertically rather than ("by hand/eye") horizontally as before.
George
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makes you wonder what woul…
makes you wonder what would happen if you put a one way valve the same as the one used for the engine breather in place of the overflow pipe fitting in the timing cover. engine running, would it have the effect of pulling the oil back in through the inlet cam bush or equalizing pressure build up . i don't know. just a thought
Barry
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I don't think that would…
I don't think that would work. That part of the timing case (the mag chain drive enclosure) is effectively open to atmosphere as the magneto does not seal to the large aperture in the back, so unlikely to be any significant pressure variation going on in there.
Possibly posted this before but I have seen this neatly engineered solution - see photo. The mag drive overflow pipe is routed into a non-return valve connected to a hollow engine bolt at the bottom of the crankcase. As the piston rises the oil escaping from the mag case is drawn back into the crankcase.
ian McD
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like i say Ian it was just…
like i say Ian it was just a thought. thats a good idea shown in the photo.
Barry
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Yes - very clever Ian. Has…
Yes - very clever Ian. Has anyone ever seen it done on a Norton single?
G
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I would be concerned about…
I would be concerned about putting it at the bottom of the crankcase as that would normally be flooded with oil. But somewhere half way up may work well?
Nicely engineered job though.
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It is a nice job, I was ve…
It is a nice job, I was very impressed. The owner is a very competent engineer. The closest bolt on the Norton, and mid-way up the case, is also the bolt that holds the footrests. We might not want to take any strength out of that one! The next one down is near the bottom and might be below the oil level. Certainly it would be close to the pickup point for the return side of the pump.
Ian McD
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I'd worry about the muck…
I'd worry about the muck that might get into the mag chain housing and which could then contaminate the oil returning to the sump.
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A good point - I was just…
A good point - I was just looking at the union for the drain pipe on mine and it was quite mucky, with bits of grit in it.
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I'm taking that risk anyw…
I'm taking that risk anyway, by returning the oil from the catch bottle to the tank. The chat about modifications to automatically return the escaped oil is really just a thought exercise. I'm just showing an example that has been done on another make of bike.
What I am really hoping for (probably also George) is to work out why some bikes piddle significant quantities of oil from the inlet cam bush. Knowing why might then help us find a fix. So far this thread has not produced an explanation!
ian McD
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On the subject of curing t…
On the subject of curing the cause rather than the effect, would fitting the reamer into a stand drill give a more accurate ream than the usual "hand" operation?
George
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I think that if it is the…
I think that if it is the correct bush with the grooves stopping before the outer end then it can only be due to the fit between the bush and the spindle - either a badly worn spindle or as you suggest not accurately reamed. For a perfect job the 2 bushes should probably be line reamed. Is there any radial play in the spindle?
Having said that, there shouldn't be much more than oil mist in the timing chest so it's a bit of a mystery why so much liquid oil should come through.
If I was collecting it in a catch bottle I'd probably chuck it away rather than put it back in the tank, and I'm a notorious cheapskate!
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Hello. the photo shows an…
Hello. the photo shows an inlet cam out of my 19s .it has a scrolled groove running along the outer shaft where the bush would sit. so you would think it would be a plain bush not a grooved one that would fit over it. unless they change over the years . if the groove in the bush stops short of the end of the shaft. the groove on the cam shaft carries on to the end would it allow oil to pass through the bush when stationary.
Barry
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It may never have needed r…
It may never have needed reaming, George. Once the new bush is in place, offer up the camshaft to check the fit. The camshaft is most probably the original one, 63 years old, and the journal could have a little wear on it which may render reaming unnecessary, if the bush hasn't distorted when being pressed into place.
You will never ream anything accurately whilst holding the piece in one hand and the reamer in the other.
Technically Ian S. is right, they should be line-reamed, but that means changing both bushes, and splitting the crankcases; I don't think you want to go there!
Norman White installed and line-reamed the camshaft bushes on my 650SS engine for me. Of course that set-up is different, in that the camshaft is about 3 times the length of yours, the bushes being in both crankcase halves. You should be ok just doing the one; if it needs it.
Ian C.
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If the camshaft rotates th…
If the camshaft rotates the same way as my ES2 (ie anticlockwise looking from outside) that groove would tend to pull oil back into the timing chest rather than feed it out. Maybe the theory is that oil travels along the groove in the bush to the blind end then the scroll on the spindle returns it?
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Previously ian_soady wrote…
Previously ian_soady wrote:
If the camshaft rotates the same way as my ES2 (ie anticlockwise looking from outside) that groove would tend to pull oil back into the timing chest rather than feed it out. Maybe the theory is that oil travels along the groove in the bush to the blind end then the scroll on the spindle returns it?
I believe that that is the idea. Some oil (more than mist) will always get into the chain cover. A mechanical scroll and the fit of the cam in the bush will never make it 100% oil tight. If it were oil tight the chain would never be lubricated. Having oil in the cover means that it has to go somewhere and rather than it eventually coming from the mag aperture Norton decided to let it drop out of the drain pipe.
The only time my '38 ES2 has never dropped oil from the drain was when I thought I would be clever and lubricate the chain with grease. It blocked the drain pipe! And it has new bushes, line reamed with only a couple of thou end-float.
As an experiment I attached some clear plastic tube to the drain pipe and ran it up by the engine oil pipes leaving the open top at a level just above the camshaft spindle height. I cable tie it to the oil pipes. I now have an "oil gauge" that I could see how much oil was coming out and the height of the oil level in the chain cover. Crankcase pressure never pushed the oil out of the top and it only filled to about to a third of its height after about a 40 mile run. I now leave the pipe connected and when the engine has cooled, drain it into the tray that I leave under the bike when it is parked in the garage (not that it leaks much anyway). Without the pipe it only gave a small drip after a run but it was sufficient to mark the pave drive
George, I think that in the absence of a line reamer your proposal to put the reamer into a drill stand or pillar drill is a viable alternative. At least the bore would be at 90 degrees to the cover. However only do this this turning the drill by hand and remember, reamers should only be turned in a forward direction, never backwards. Also use a good reamer. I bought a set of far eastern adjustable reamers and most of them are only good for cutting dodecagonal shaped holes!
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Just to put things in pers…
Just to put things in perspective:
From the Franks book:
"With all engine components in good condition, a consumption of 1600 to 2000 mile per gallon should be obtained."
I reckon that, from my measuring gauge, my mag cover drains 0.3 pints per 1000 miles. Peanuts!!
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Ian - you mention end floa…
Ian - you mention end float. Would incorrect end flat cause more oil transfer? I migh try the plastic tube idea and see what happens.
Colin - 1 gallon per 1600miles is 1 pint per 200 miles. Seems a lot? That's 5 pints per 1000m.
My t/c case drips around 120ml on a 40 mile blast. If you do the sums (and if I've got it right) thats over 5 pints per 1000m. That's the same as Franks' figure. Don't tell me after all this that it's normal!!
George
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Keep asking - cos I'm learning too!