Commando Mk111 electric start

Any idea if it is one of my starters?see here:

IF so...I have tested it with an atlas battery, regular commando battery, and of course the regular lead acid yuasa E-start battery. and they all work just fine on the starter. But the old boyer analog does not usually work well with a stock starter, mod 4 brush starter or my starter. I currently use the stock size yuasa AGM on my MKIII (my starter of course).

Previously andrew_windsor wrote:

Hi,

This is the new thread seperated fron the 1953 ES2 electric start ?.

Right here we go !

This week i placed orders with RGM for the remainder of the gears bushes spacers etc that i didnt have and they arrived wednesday so now i have everything i need for inside the primary drive case. Then i spoke to Les at Novil in his happy hour what a character, and he supplied me with a New more powerful starter motor and three starter leads more thicker, and they arrived thursday. This morning i checked the battery to see what numbers were on it and there was none , so my guess its a cheapy. Towards the end of next week Nidge is coming over to make a start his only concern is the battery may not be up to it, and he said leave the ignition for now untill we try it.

Andrew.

Some electronic ignitions advance if the voltage drops. If when using the electric start the battery is not up to it the voltage drops to the ignition, the ignition advances causing kickback which can cause damage.

I would see how well the engine turns over with the ignition disconected while measuring the battery voltage. If the voltage drops too low replace the battery before starting. Motobatt batterys are good and have four terminals so you can use two for the starter and two for the rest of the electrics.

Previously andrew_windsor wrote:

Hi,

Thankyou Chris the point you make is a good one , i am pretty sure the voltage was down when i experienced the kickback . i will put the voltage meter on it and let you know the readings..

Kind Regards

Andrew

I know costs can run away, but it is better to spend on a new battery than have a sprag destroyed as you probably have found they are not cheap.

I have fitted an early battery tray which allows a larger 21 amp hr motobatt battery, two terminals for starter, two for electrics. I use car battery cable and a mini starter solinoid with a Norvil starter motor. I am using a Pazon ignition from Andover Norton. I have used relays for all switching. This results in no hesitation when I press the button.

If you have an old starter solinoid check the resistance across the starter connections while it is engaged. My original had very high resistance probably due to bouncing when used with low battery power.

Hi Andrew

You are referring to the preload applied to the anti-backfire device. The Haynes Manual says to tighten it until a torque of 50 ft/lbs will cause the device to 'slip' as the balls ride out of their sockets. You are going to need to make some adapters to hold it in a vice. Personally, I found that 50 ft/lbs was not quite enough and I set mine at 70 ft/lbs (NOTE: this is the torque to make the device slip, and not the torque on the nut)

That nut should be a new one so that you can peen it and lock it.

Several of us have said in this and the other thread to watch the battery. I am concerned about your opening comments and suggest that you must have a new, high current battery. Do not even try to use an old 12 or 14 Ah battery or you will have severe upsets. Test it on a 40Ah car battery if you have not bought one yet.

Norm.

Watch that the disc washers are oriented the right way to create thrust, and not stacked together as a set of cones.

Hello,

I use for 4 years a DEKA ETX 15 battery (made in USA,like Harley) AGM-frost,for my 850 MK3,105 euros in France.

Starting-up only with the starter and I am very satisfied.

This starter is the same sold by Norvil or David (made in USA also I thinck ? But I do not know who make it : Prestolite? Toyota ?).

My ignition is with contact breaker points,the Boyer is not recommended for Ã?lectricstart and even for the kickstart (kickback current .)

Hi Andrew

I am working from memory, and it is a few years ago, but the coned washers have to be stacked so that they have a maximum compressability. i.e they work if stacked like this <>< but not like this <<<. If you have just three of them and it shows three in the parts diagram then that is the number, but I cannot remember.

Peening the nut flange is with a flat faced punch (e.g. 2 to 3 mm dia) and a good belt with the hammer so that the metal distorts into the thread. You cannot loctite it because it takes a while to get the torque right, and the nut tries to move when you apply a test torque load! I have a thought that I might have put on a temporary lock nut to overcome this.

A better fix would be a hole in the shaft and a castellated nut and split pin. The circlip does not hold the nut still but I guess serves only to stop it falling off completely if it came undone; at which point the starter spins and there is no drive so no great harm done.

Norm

Have a look at Old Brits technical article on the backfire device

shows you all you need to know - there are other very useful articles on the same web site - Alan

Tris-park it is a good Ã?lectronic ignition for the comandos..

Here,in France,many Norton riders fit this ignition.

The trispark is quite good value for money at the moment with the weak australian dollar. Mine worked out at about £145 Direct from the maker

Why not rig up a separate battery to just power the ignition. If it is a stand alone power supply then it's voltage won't be dragged down by the starter motor. If you want to test the system you could just connect a set of jump leads to your car battery. That will withstand the load and not drop the volts to boyer advance threshold. The reason bike starters suffer in this way, is the tiny batteries fitted. Bigger batteries = more cranking power and less voltage drop.

Previously andrew_windsor wrote:

Hi All,

An update , i have torqued the backfire device to 70 ft/llbs and its refitted on the bike everything else is in place on the primary drive side. The next stage tomorrow fit the new starter solenoid and check there is power to the starter button, is it too risky to try and start it with the boyer ignition, i know previous posts have advised to fit the trispark first.

Kind Regards

Andrew

Hi Andrew,

Is it wise to set the torque to 70 ft lbs if the manual recommends 50? I know that some owners have needed to go higher than the recommended figure, but this has usually been after trying it out first.

It seems that certain combinations of sprag/sprockets have more or less wear which can be worked around by increasing the torque setting on the backfire device.

If you have new parts fitted, it may be better to start with the factory setting. Your call, of course! I am part-way through re-installing the electric start on my Mk3, so I'm watching this thread with interest.

Allan.

Previously andrew_windsor wrote:

Hi All,

Electrics not my domain.

I have three leads , One long red lead ,One long black lead, and a short black lead. One terminal on the starter motor. I have rewrote this post several times with combinations of how i think where the leads will go , and i keep coming up with different scenario"s so i guess its best let you guys tell me .

Kind Regards

Andrew

Long Red:- Battery positive to engine crank case stud fixing top back infront of starter motor.

Long Black:- starter solinoid to starter motor.

Short Black:- starter solinoid to Battery negative.

Previously andrew_windsor wrote:

Hi All,

A couple off hours in the workshop this afternoon still hopping round on one leg, ive about mastered it now . I fed the live lead under the starter motor and attached it to the upper crankcase stud just behind the left hand cylinder, a little bit of drilling on the live spade it was not big enough to go over the stud. The earth was then fitted to the starter motor the long one, and then fed up to the solinoid , and then the shorter black earth dropped down from the solinoid awaiting the battery. Just still waiting for the sump socket to arrive so i can drop out any excess oil . I have being charging my old battery up with the intension of using it but now i am getting closer to lift off the nerves are kicking in a bit so i will get a new one. Bare in mind this has been a blank canvass for me and without the help from you guys it would off been a nightmare. I wont thank you all yet untill i have finished i dont want you running off !

Kind Regards

Andrew

Do not forget its positive earth

Previously andrew_windsor wrote:

....... Just still waiting for the sump socket to arrive so i can drop out any excess oil ........

Andrew,

You can drain the sump by removing the 9/16" AF drain bolt (which should also contain a magnet), just forward, and at a lower point, to the larger sump plug,

Regards,

Simon.

hi

if the starter motor runs at speed but does not engage and turn the engine over but the starter turnes on the kickstart the sprag clutch needs turning the other way round it fits boath ways.

regards

bob

hi Andrew

take boath spark plugs out push the kickstarter down does it turnover freely with the starter gears staying stationary.

is the bike wetsumped have you drained the oil out .

if you have checked the above i would re check the backfire device are the six ball berings round or worn oval ......

regards

bob

Hi

Are you now saying its slipping on the crank (sprag gear) or is the backfire device slipping.

www.oldbritts.com/e_start_gears.html

regards

bob

Hi

Check all the sprag teeth face the same direction and one is not flipped over or the sprag is faulty or the gear the sprag runs on is under size.

ive neaver had one slip and thats what the backfire device is for .

perhaps somone else can shed some light on this problem

Regards

Bob