Pre-war ES2 restoration

Before diving in, I would ask the club if they're able to provide a copy of the relevant ledger entry, or at least detail under which headings the various entries occur. Some items will be in the general comments on the right hand page but others may be linked to specific columns.

I don't know if the club looks at the original entries when issuing certificates but the computerised database which was worked on by many members is likely to have differences of interpretation.

The bike you have certainly has the 'International Type' tank which was an ES2 option for 1939. You also have the correct 'for one year only' front forks.

Dull Chrome is a finish that Norton used on many of their fasteners. It certainly wasn't standard for a fuel tanks and if it is indeed the tank which was dull, was presumably chosen by the purchaser as a more durable finish than polished chrome.

I'd urge caution when discussing 'dull' plating with chromers as many of them seem to have little or no knowledge of a process that doesn't seem to have been used much commercially since the 1960s. I'm pretty sure that the chromium salts then in use have now been forbidden so any modern process will be simply an attempt at the same effect. There should be no brushed or satin effect with dull chrome - it's nearest to very gently blasted aluminium in texture and has a distinctive blue-grey colour (but no too blue). I've had three or four experiences where the result has been nothing like promised.

The best results that I've had have been from Collins Chemical Blacking in South London (nothing as large as a fuel tank though) and others have said that the results can be variable.

If the tank has other damage, I'd personally think long and hard before chroming. It's not a tank that you'll easily find another example of.

The VMCC normally answer queries using the micro-filmed copies made by the Science Museum rather than reaching down the large and dusty ledgers. It would be easy to miss-read. Even the originals are not always easy.

If there are any WD models on the same page, I may have a photograph of the entry. You can 'pm' me with the engine number if you like and I'll have a look.

This was the 'dull chrome' on my tank top panel. Sadly the plater could not or did not replicate it.

Derby Plating Services (01332 382408) do dull chrome - I had all the relevant bits done for a 1938 CS1 by them a couple of years ago.

They also do large items such as tanks - but mine was done in triple plated bright chrome asthat was the original finish. Be prepared to spend a couple of thousand for a complete bike though!

I also had Will Horgan at Stainless Classics (02087 511931) duplicate every nut & bolt in stainless, I then beadblasted them, and it looks very much like the dull chrome on the original fasteners.

Unlike some stainless suppliers, Will understands the need for the right tensile grade of stainless for particular parts, such as wheel spindles.

If anyone wants to look at these finishes, this bike will hopefully have its first airing at the big Norton do at Donnington on 9,10,11 of August.

Previously David Cooper wrote:

This was the 'dull chrome' on my tank top panel. Sadly the plater could not or did not replicate it.

G'day David,

Are those two small rivets between filler and speedo holes on your panel ? What are they for ? I couldn't work out what the holes were for on mine so just put two small blanking screws in to fill the space.

http://www.vintagenorton.com/search/label/Model%2016H%20Saddle%20Tank

Tony, Glen...

This shows my tank top panel.

The two rivets are for an 'H'-shaped thin steel plate underneath. The 'cross bar' of the 'H' is held by the rivets, and the arms are bent together as cable tidies. So when you lift up the panel to remove the tank the cables dpn't load the terminals. I have more pics but not with me.

ps arranging the cables is a pain. Mine are bundled into two sets: one to the rear and one to the front lamp. The rear set go through what looks like the original rubber sleeve past the left of the steering head, and the front through a new sleeve past the right of the head. The tank can of course be removed without disturbing the wiring although the panal has to be lifted far enough to detach the speedo and trip re-set.

Also my tank has quite a big cut away underneath - I imagine I could fit a Big 4 engine. Don't know if they bothered with many different types of panel type tanks with different cut-aways. All of this must reduce capacity but I've never checked.

Previously David Cooper wrote:

http://www.vintagenorton.com/search/label/Model%2016H%20Saddle%20Tank

Tony, Glen...

This shows my tank top panel.

The two rivets are for an 'H'-shaped thin steel plate underneath. The 'cross bar' of the 'H' is held by the rivets, and the arms are bent together as cable tidies. So when you lift up the panel to remove the tank the cables dpn't load the terminals. I have more pics but not with me.

Thanks for that Tony,

I just couldn't work out what the two holes in mine were for. I will make up something similar next time I have my panel off to hold the wires.

Glenn

Here is a picture of the underside of the panel with the steel cable grips..

David Cooper

Previously David Cooper wrote:

ps arranging the cables is a pain. Mine are bundled into two sets: one to the rear and one to the front lamp. The rear set go through what looks like the original rubber sleeve past the left of the steering head, and the front through a new sleeve past the right of the head. The tank can of course be removed without disturbing the wiring although the panal has to be lifted far enough to detach the speedo and trip re-set.

Also my tank has quite a big cut away underneath - I imagine I could fit a Big 4 engine. Don't know if they bothered with many different types of panel type tanks with different cut-aways. All of this must reduce capacity but I've never checked.

Hi David,

I need to build up my instrument panel for my 1938 Model 18. You say that your speedo has a resettable trip. What is the speedo number fitted? Is the trip operated from the bottom or side?

Thanks Ian.

Hello, Ian

Have a look at the attachment to my previous mail (above) - the trip sticks down and it can be seen in the photo trying to poke the lens out of the camera. It can be reached by poking about below the tank (and burning the back of your gloves on the cylinder head...)

Also visible are serial numbers on the back. If that isn't enough I'll visit the shed this evening.

David

Previously David Cooper wrote:

Hello, Ian

Have a look at the attachment to my previous mail (above) - the trip sticks down and it can be seen in the photo trying to poke the lens out of the camera. It can be reached by poking about below the tank (and burning the back of your gloves on the cylinder head...)

Also visible are serial numbers on the back. If that isn't enough I'll visit the shed this evening.

David

Hi David,

Thanks for pointing it out. I must admit that I never noticed it initially when looking at the photo hence the request.

I think I will just fit a speedo without a trip!!Best regards, Ian

Thanks for the photo of the bottom of your panel David.

Ian, the trip actually has a small length of flexible tube attached to it with the little clip or pin (I can't remember which) and on the other end is a small circular weight with a protruding bit that fits into the end of the tube. This hangs down below the tank far enough to get a hold of easily. It kind of hangs near the downtube between horn and tank. It must be a fairly standard setup because some of the old boy's in our club down here knew exactly what it was when they saw it. I guess the length of tube must be around 30cm. I'm not home for another couple of weeks or I'd take a shot of it for you.

I believe that up until the war, although speedos had been compulsory in the U.K. for several years, Nortons still listed them as an extra-cost option.

In 1938, buyers were given the choice of an 80mph speedo (£2-10-0) or 120mph (£2-16-0) (They also chose between 1140 or HF934 horn). It's quite possible that some buyers opted for a non-trip instrument to save a few pennies.

The Smiths part number is on the aluminium tag obscured by the clamp. It will indicate the 'speed', whether illuminated or not, trip fitment and that it has a panel fitting bezel. There will also be a month and date of manufacture. Unfortunately, I know of no source document which details build / spec details for the pre-war Jaeger drive instruments.

I very much doubt that anyone will get their head up underneath a panel to check that the correct plate is fitted.

Richard

Not sure that I want to take it to bits again to look. I do know the date plate says 1937 (the same as the bike registration year).

But there was a recent post somewhere from an Indian owner of a 16H with panel top tank - and he had no speedo. That is - there wasn't even a hole for the speedo. So they must have been an optional extra for the buyer - and whether or not he paid for one presumably depended on what country he lived in. I wonder (only vaguely) if Che Geuvara knew how fast he was travelling!

On the topic of tank top panels: were they originally lined? There was no evidence of lines either on the panel or adjacent to it when I cleaned up mine whereas on the oil tank the areas originally chromed were rusty and the areas originally lined red and black still had quite good chrome. So there were witness marks of the lines in a sense. Tanks without panels appear to have been lined with the instrument panel shape.

David, I wasn't for one moment intending to suggest that you should dismantle. When putting mine together, I simply used a plate from more or less the correct date (a few months before production). I have no idea if the build code is correct. It's really not visible when mounted, even when not in a panel.

I don't know about export tank panels. I suspect that Nortons were prepared to provide what an export agent asked for. If Che's bike had a speedo originally, it almost certainly wasn't working anymore !

The 1938 brochure includes a plan view of the panel tank and it doesn't look as if it's lined but the illustrations are heavily retouched for the printer so I can't be sure.

Previously glenn_osborne wrote:

Thanks for the photo of the bottom of your panel David.

Ian, the trip actually has a small length of flexible tube attached to it with the little clip or pin (I can't remember which) and on the other end is a small circular weight with a protruding bit that fits into the end of the tube. This hangs down below the tank far enough to get a hold of easily. It kind of hangs near the downtube between horn and tank. It must be a fairly standard setup because some of the old boy's in our club down here knew exactly what it was when they saw it. I guess the length of tube must be around 30cm. I'm not home for another couple of weeks or I'd take a shot of it for you.

Thanks Glenn,

No hurry.

regards,

Ian

Here's a picture of the panel from a 1938 sales brochure https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-8sJwouPY35Q/UfJV-qBDn-I/AAAAAAAAAFc/0hwHFwhMBiQ/s800/1938%2520p5.jpg It is a little hard to tell but I zoomed in on this copy I have on my computer and it doesn't seem to be lined.

Here is a picture of my panel. I have a painted silver tank instead of chrome (my economical version). Panel centre painted black with red lining. Red has started to come off on one side. Patina I call it Looks the part I reckon even if not original. https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-q2vzMr91M0Q/UAqtFswJKzI/AAAAAAAAAA4/hAZYAlu7UNk/s800/20120426-IMG_2331.jpg

Don't ya just love a good hijacking I've linked a couple of more pages from my 38 sales brochure for you Tony. I'm guessing 39 would have been basically the same. One page has a description of the wheel finish and one with a pic of the ES2. Ignore the cows udder silencer as these were one year only, but if anyone reading knows where to get one, or one made please let me know. The description of the wheels has no mention of painted spokes and although this is a illistrated brochure and not pictorial, I believe if the spokes were black they would have made them black and mentioned it. So the question is with what were they plated with ? Paint I can't help you with.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/--m9_Uh289v4/UfKIZjk4iVI/AAAAAAAAAF4/rxsin8eJ2pc/s800/1938%2520p8-9.jpg

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-yqU6S-ZpJBk/UfKIJmti1gI/AAAAAAAAAFw/PhChjOad8DY/s800/1938%2520p10.jpg