What have I bought?

Hi Paul, look for the frame number on the front petrol tank lug, LHS. There should be model number plus serial number. Post war there is also a date letter and the frame & engine numbers would have matched when they left the factory. Pre war frame & engine numbers didn't match. Date code started with A in 1946 and ran through to R in 1960. Big 4 model code is 7. Example: C7 xxxxx would be a 1948 Big 4.

Dolls head gearbox suggests an earlier bike (late 30s - early 40s) but tele forks came in around '47 so possibly a bitsa.

Cheers, Ian McD

This frame is an 'open diamond' and all post-war frames with the exception of the 500T (which this doesn't look like) were full cradle. If it has horizontal saddle spring lugs then it is a pre-war (civilian) frame dating from late 1936 - late 1939.

The left hand side of the front fuel tank lug is the only correct place for the frame number. Perhaps better to wire brush than to sand - it doesn't help if the casting marks are removed from the lug. The numbers were not always stamped very hard.

Image below came from the net somewhere but shows a pre-war number.

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Do tell then. What is it ?

I find the photo Richard posted interesting. My 38 ES2 also has the 5 above the frame number..what is the significance of the Number 5

I'm not exactly sure, Ian. WD frames don't have it (even pre-war ones) so I haven't investigated but I believe it's been discussed on here before.

My impression was that it must be related to frame type (for stores identification) rather than model type. Apart from the 350s, all the models were mixed up amongst themselves.

There doesn't seem to be anything in the factory records which show a definite correlation.

I must confess that I hadn't noticed that the pre-war frames lack a model code. My '37 CS1 has a number above the frame number but it isn't clearly stamped. I had assumed it was a model number. Looking again it could also be 5, as per Richard's photo. I should have realised that Bacon does not list a single letter code for CS1 in "Norton Singles" . Also, the 5 code appears not to be associated with a specific model. It looks like the frame number series was repeated post-war so Richard's example could have been re-used somewhere around '60/'61 (again according to Bacon).

ian McD

If the Model 19 engine fits in then it's not a WD16H frame and could well be of the correct type. According to the late Peter Roydhouse, the OHV 600cc engine was the only one that was too tall to fit into the high-ground clearance WD frame.

What does seem likely is that you have a pre-war frame fitted with post-war tele forks. Some would regard that as reducing period charm, others as a worthwhile improvement. The choice is yours, but Norton girders are not that easy to find any more and are expensive...I would certainly steer clear of the Indian copies with their apparent cast-iron lugs and inaccurate jigging.

Another approach might be to regard this period upgrade as simply another type of period charm (and interest: I for one would not attempt to reverse one of those post-war bolt-on swinging arm conversions, since they too are a significant part of motorcycling history).

For comparison, in 60 years' time what will our successors make of all those Commandos with twin floating discs?

Previously richard_payne wrote:

If the Model 19 engine fits in then it's not a WD16H frame and could well be of the correct type. According to the late Peter Roydhouse, the OHV 600cc engine was the only one that was too tall to fit into the high-ground clearance WD frame.

What does seem likely is that you have a pre-war frame fitted with post-war tele forks. Some would regard that as reducing period charm, others as a worthwhile improvement. The choice is yours, but Norton girders are not that easy to find any more and are expensive...I would certainly stear clear of the Indian copies with their apparent cast-iron lugs and inaccurate jigging.

According to Bacon, there were no Model 19s between 1939 and 1954 (when it was the 19R and 19S).

Have a talk with the Club Record Officer. He can check against the factory records database quite easily.

I only have copies of pages which include WD entries and not all of those are easy to read. The entries are a long way off consecutive order - sometimes three or four thousand apart on the same page...but I can confirm that frames 98102, 98103 and 98106 were all 1939 model year Model 19s despatched during late 1938.

The engine number could well be correct for the frame.

If it is a 1939 Model 19 with correct engine for year then it's certainly worth doing. Gorgeous.

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For the avoidance of doubt presumably Model 19s is the plural of Model 19 whilst Model 19S is the actual model type. I mention incase any readers are not familiar with the model types.

George

Previously paul_dudill wrote:

Hi,

the frame number appears to be 98118. I haven't located any letters or other numbers such as the 5 mentioned and shown in the photo above. The frame is pitted in this area so it's tricky and going to take time. I believe this is likely to be a 1947ish Model 19 frame?

I understand the 19R was a rigid with Roadholder forks but only manufactured in 1955? I find this confusing as I saw one for sale on the net that purported to be a 1948 19R?

I don't have a problem with a mix n match bike but In all honesty I think I've bitten off more than I can chew with this one restoration wise.

Thank you to everyone for the help.

What?? Come on Paul, you're not supposed to get disillusioned until you've spent at least £4000 and every weekend and evening over three years on it! Never say die, up man and try. We're all here to help!

I agree with Adam. I've just spent the last month or so (and a ton of GBP's) dismantling and "re-mantlling" my gearbox and clutch in an effort to get better gear changes. It all now finally works.

The triumph of Perseverance over Ability!

And this message board is here to help.

George

Previously George Phillips wrote:

I agree with Adam. I've just spent the last month or so (and a ton of GBP's) dismantling and "re-mantlling" my gearbox and clutch in an effort to get better gear changes. It all now finally works.

The triumph of Perseverance over Ability!

And this message board is here to help.

George

I feel your pain George, and I havenât started on the AMC box yet!