Pazon and PVL Coils 850 MkIIa

I had an eerily similar experience with the Pazon set up on my Jubilee recently. I replaced the coils, leads, caps and plugs when I installed the Pazon and all was sweetness and light for a hundred miles or so. Then, whilst minding my own business on the A3 at about 55, a misfire developed, became worse, brought proceedings to a halt and necessitated a recovery call out.

Copious quantities of Bradex Easy Start up its chuff whilst kicking like a mule doing the Can Can eventually got a start and an uneasy ride home, with rough running suggestive of over-advanced ignition (I'd set it up scrupulously by the book using a timing disc) and next day I retarded it by about 4 degrees. It started easily and ran, on a short test trip, just fine. Back at base I whipped the chain cover off and put the timing disc back on to check where things were and, again, it conformed to book settings. After that I couldn't even get it to fire most of the time, except very occasionally it would decide to fire and run. Weird, weird, weird.

Further investigation revealed the unit to be sparking at about 30 deg after TDC, rather than 8 before and then only once per camshaft revolution rather than twice. I ended up getting the Pazon replaced (although the supplier assured me that it checked out fine on the bench) and, meantime, reverted to points/condensers and normal running. Haven't had the courage to try it with the replacement Pazon fitted yet (there's only so much grief you can cope with in this life and, bike-wise, I'm already at capacity) but maybe I'll try again next spring. We'll see.

PVL coils: Sold over 1600 6Volt PVL coils in the last 20 years; I think return rate was less than 1/1000th; in fact can not remember a new one ever played up. Coils are in the market from various manufacturers, mostly from the Far East; I have yet to encounter one of those that is any good. Most coils on Commandos die because the proud owner tightens the coil clamp until the coil gets a "wasp waist". Then the coil shortens out as it warms up and the coils expand until they touch the aluminium body and cause a short circuit.PVL coils are also sold as genuine "Lucas", "Beru", and "Bosch"- the respective manufacturers just stick their logos on. PVL coils are made in Germany.

Pazon ignition: As opposed to the ignitions I sold before, I have switched to Pazon ignitions in the last couple of years and had nothing but satisfaction from them. As opposed to my previous manufacturer, they have some major advantages:- they work below 11 Volts;- their stator plates just work; the other manufacturers were a constant desaster waiting to happen;- ignition advance curves are the same for several ignitions tested back to back on a test rig; the other manufacturers differed wildly from one to the next.

Return rate on Pazons so far was one (1!), which wasn't even faulty, but the customer had made a major installation mistake. I now ride it in one of my own Commandos.

There is always a chance of a freak manufacturing defect even with the best product; but I should be surprised if two PVL coils were faulty at the same time.

Try putting a new earth wire from the head to the pazon box earth point and then from there back to the battery. Had a lack of spark on left side ona boyer equipped bike during the summer, tried everthing else and this fixed it. 2 other brit bikes fitted with boyers have been fixed the same way recently too.

I am just in the final stages of bolting my MKIII back together after it ate its sprag clutch etc.

My basic fix for the root problem (backfiring due to low voltage from the electric start - I think) is to replace the Boyer with a Pazon, which I have just installed.

As well as the starting gear train, I have also replaced all the cables and wiring for the starter and rebuit the starter with new brushes etc.

Yet to fire it up, but I will verify the installation (again) - I'll keep you posted.

Yours etc, Slightly Worried of Camberley...

Ah Jack,

I have had the exact same problem with my Mk 111, but I am now tired of buying sprags at £50 a time. The last one went after a complete e/s rebuild including all gearing, courtesy of Norman White.I now have a totally original e/s motor LESS ALL internals ! Must add that I also had a Boyer fitted, and was considering a Pazon , but have heard that they have a different advance curve, ie almost none ! Any comment ???

Cheers

I hate to defend the Pazon yet again, but with the Pazon you not only get an advance curve, but you get THE SAME advance curve with every Pazon. Something which we never found with a.n.other electronic ignition. I know, it was checked on a test rig with ignitions from both manufacturers.

J.S.

Previously wrote:

I hate to defend the Pazon yet again, but with the Pazon you not only get an advance curve, but you get THE SAME advance curve with every Pazon. Something which we never found with a.n.other electronic ignition. I know, it was checked on a test rig with ignitions from both manufacturers.

J.S.

I agree with joe, the pazon is very good. I just installed one on my 72 combat. I followed the instructions given, used the existing Lucas coils. the entire procees didnt take much longer than timing and setting points ona Norton with standard ignition. The performance is excellent and the bike will start on the first kick 99% of the time. Has it's twin Amals still on as well!

Joe, thanks for contributing to the forum, and forall your efforts to keep Norton's on the road.

Steven Phelps

Hello Chaps.

Right tried to start in with the Pazon on, no joy at all.

We have fuel, the Pazon self test works, and the red dot seems to be in the right hole at 28 degrees btdc.

The wiring appears to be spot on, and the bike ran perfectly well with the old Boyer on it.

Has anyone any ideas?

Does the Pazon need different plugs - in fact what would be the best plugs to run?

The coils buzzed out to 2.2 ohms (Pazo suggest over 3 ohms), and they are Wassel 6v items - any problems with those that anyone may recognise?

Any help really would be gratefully appreciated!

Previously wrote:

Right tried to start in with the Pazon on, no joy at all.

We have fuel, the Pazon self test works, and the red dot seems to be in the right hole at 28 degrees btdc.

The wiring appears to be spot on, and the bike ran perfectly well with the old Boyer on it.

Has anyone any ideas

It might be instructive to try the test that I applied to mine (see my earlier contribution to this thread) whereby I attached a timing disc, removed the plugs and lay them on the cylinder head with the leads attached. I then slowly turned the engine over (with ignition on) and watched out for where the sparking occurred. I was surprised by the results, which seemed to indicate exactly why mine wouldn't fire or start.

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

Right tried to start in with the Pazon on, no joy at all.

We have fuel, the Pazon self test works, and the red dot seems to be in the right hole at 28 degrees btdc.

The wiring appears to be spot on, and the bike ran perfectly well with the old Boyer on it.

Has anyone any ideas

It might be instructive to try the test that I applied to mine (see my earlier contribution to this thread) whereby I attached a timing disc, removed the plugs and lay them on the cylinder head with the leads attached. I then slowly turned the engine over (with ignition on) and watched out for where the sparking occurred. I was surprised by the results, which seemed to indicate exactly why mine wouldn't fire or start.

Thanks Howard - I'll give it a go.

I did realise that in fact the instructions ask you to set the timing to 31 degrees btdc, rather than 28 degrees - when you read it properly. So I changed that, but still no joy.

It seems like a very weak spark as well.

I'll try your test and see what happens.

J

I have used Boyer for as long as I've run Commandos (a very long time) However I've experienced all the issues associated with them and always carried a spare when on tour. A 750 I'd restored was being problematic, many hours in the workshop later I discovered Pazon, night and day difference when compared to Boyer, now I have Pazon on 3 of my Commandos and slowly changing over the rest. Great bit of kit and on the Mk3 a godsend as they still work at lower voltages allowing the engine to turn over on the button AND actually get a spark. When I look round my garage its cluttered with A) old Boyers and B) old Amals, wonder why?

Previously wrote:

I have used Boyer for as long as I've run Commandos (a very long time) However I've experienced all the issues associated with them and always carried a spare when on tour. A 750 I'd restored was being problematic, many hours in the workshop later I discovered Pazon, night and day difference when compared to Boyer, now I have Pazon on 3 of my Commandos and slowly changing over the rest. Great bit of kit and on the Mk3 a godsend as they still work at lower voltages allowing the engine to turn over on the button AND actually get a spark. When I look round my garage its cluttered with A) old Boyers and B) old Amals, wonder why?

Gino,

that sounds terrific.

However mine still doesn't work!

I really have installed it as instructed, and that been verified 3 times by 2 different people.

I was replacing a Boyer rather than the points set up and there was no capacitor attached to the coil mounting plate (not the 2MC one in the battery box) - does the Pazon need that capacitor?

I would really appreciate it if you would describe how you installed your Pazon on you MkIII e/s - it may show me if and where I have gone wrong.

However I still keep arriving at one place - the Pazon self test routine works, but the spark seems weak. Maybe the petrol, piston and spark just are not getting to the right place at the right time, as it doesn't fire at all!!

I can't believe that something so simple is being so difficult.

I will strip and clean the carbs and check all the service adjustments today as well (3rd time!), just to make absolutely sure.

Then the next logical step will be to replace it with the Boyer it it and get it running, which I really don't want to do, but that will prove the fault for sure

J

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

I have used Boyer for as long as I've run Commandos (a very long time) However I've experienced all the issues associated with them and always carried a spare when on tour. A 750 I'd restored was being problematic, many hours in the workshop later I discovered Pazon, night and day difference when compared to Boyer, now I have Pazon on 3 of my Commandos and slowly changing over the rest. Great bit of kit and on the Mk3 a godsend as they still work at lower voltages allowing the engine to turn over on the button AND actually get a spark. When I look round my garage its cluttered with A) old Boyers and B) old Amals, wonder why?

Gino,

that sounds terrific.

However mine still doesn't work!

I really have installed it as instructed, and that been verified 3 times by 2 different people.

I was replacing a Boyer rather than the points set up and there was no capacitor attached to the coil mounting plate (not the 2MC one in the battery box) - does the Pazon need that capacitor?

I would really appreciate it if you would describe how you installed your Pazon on you MkIII e/s - it may show me if and where I have gone wrong.

However I still keep arriving at one place - the Pazon self test routine works, but the spark seems weak. Maybe the petrol, piston and spark just are not getting to the right place at the right time, as it doesn't fire at all!!

I can't believe that something so simple is being so difficult.

I will strip and clean the carbs and check all the service adjustments today as well (3rd time!), just to make absolutely sure.

Then the next logical step will be to replace it with the Boyer it it and get it running, which I really don't want to do, but that will prove the fault for sure

J

So first the capacitors are redundant with any electronic ignition, they are to protect the points from arcing so once you go to electronic no more capacitor or resistor required.

Time to get back to basics, check the coils are 6V, wire them as per the instructions, static timing at 31 degrees (easier on the pazon setup) Check the earth to the frame is good, check the power lead from the switch is good. The spark does look weaker in my experience than with points but its still good enough to fire the mixture.

I know this feeling of going round in circles, a fresh pair of eyes perhaps. we all need that sometimes especially with these PITA faults

Good luck

Gino

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

I have used Boyer for as long as I've run Commandos (a very long time) However I've experienced all the issues associated with them and always carried a spare when on tour. A 750 I'd restored was being problematic, many hours in the workshop later I discovered Pazon, night and day difference when compared to Boyer, now I have Pazon on 3 of my Commandos and slowly changing over the rest. Great bit of kit and on the Mk3 a godsend as they still work at lower voltages allowing the engine to turn over on the button AND actually get a spark. When I look round my garage its cluttered with A) old Boyers and B) old Amals, wonder why?

Gino,

that sounds terrific.

However mine still doesn't work!

I really have installed it as instructed, and that been verified 3 times by 2 different people.

I was replacing a Boyer rather than the points set up and there was no capacitor attached to the coil mounting plate (not the 2MC one in the battery box) - does the Pazon need that capacitor?

I would really appreciate it if you would describe how you installed your Pazon on you MkIII e/s - it may show me if and where I have gone wrong.

However I still keep arriving at one place - the Pazon self test routine works, but the spark seems weak. Maybe the petrol, piston and spark just are not getting to the right place at the right time, as it doesn't fire at all!!

I can't believe that something so simple is being so difficult.

I will strip and clean the carbs and check all the service adjustments today as well (3rd time!), just to make absolutely sure.

Then the next logical step will be to replace it with the Boyer it it and get it running, which I really don't want to do, but that will prove the fault for sure

J

So first the capacitors are redundant with any electronic ignition, they are to protect the points from arcing so once you go to electronic no more capacitor or resistor required.

Time to get back to basics, check the coils are 6V, wire them as per the instructions, static timing at 31 degrees (easier on the pazon setup) Check the earth to the frame is good, check the power lead from the switch is good. The spark does look weaker in my experience than with points but its still good enough to fire the mixture.

I know this feeling of going round in circles, a fresh pair of eyes perhaps. we all need that sometimes especially with these PITA faults

Good luck

Gino

Hello Gino,

well - I have agood positive outcome.

Andy at Pazon was very helpful, as of course you have been yourself, so took the advice given by both of you!

I removed the sensor board for inspection, and went over the installation again in minute detail and very carefully.

The only thing I found on the sensor board was a dry joint on one side of one of the coils, but I re-soldered them all as a matter of course (I used to be an electronics tech once!).

Still wouldnât start but now we had a proper spark, and absolutely at the right time. Even got a backfire!

So I ignored my sense of smell which told me that we had fuel, and took the carburetors off.

Iâve never seen anything like it; inside they were covered in a white crystalline deposit, which I believe may be due to the ethanol that is put in unleaded petrol these days.

In fact the throttle slides were seized hard in the throttle bodies, and subsequently turned out to be heavily scored. There were various blockages and so on, and they need quite a bit of work to clean them up.

I bought the machine in April, and as there was damage to the stator, clutch, sprag clutch, starter gear train and starter (!), and ignoring the wiring faults; when I rode it home I wasnât going to ride it again until it was all fixed.

Amazingly though, it actually ran very well on the way home, and has started a couple of times since (but not since I started on the primary drive) â which was why finding the carbâs in such poor condition after only 4 months was a bit of a shock.

Anyway long story short, once I fixed up the carbs, put the sensor board back in and timed it mechanically it started â basically first kick. It spits and complains at low revâs - probably vacuum leaks, but otherwise it runs just fine â very strong in fact.

So a bit of strobing, and final fixes to the carbs should see it back on the road.

The refurbished starter works very well, so I can confirm that there is not a lot wrong with the standard set up if you replace every one of the 40 year old knackered cables and wires (including the main battery earth wire), and re-build it!

Thanks for the advice.

Best Wishes

Jack

Previously wrote:

Ah Jack,

I have had the exact same problem with my Mk 111, but I am now tired of buying sprags at £50 a time. The last one went after a complete e/s rebuild including all gearing, courtesy of Norman White.I now have a totally original e/s motor LESS ALL internals ! Must add that I also had a Boyer fitted, and was considering a Pazon , but have heard that they have a different advance curve, ie almost none ! Any comment ???

Cheers

Hans - I have now. The Pazon seems to work very well indeed. I would recommend it. My bike had a list of faults; in fact it had faults hiding other faults! Starter really does seem to work well now - hopefully it will continue to do so.

Cheers indeed!!

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

Right tried to start in with the Pazon on, no joy at all.

We have fuel, the Pazon self test works, and the red dot seems to be in the right hole at 28 degrees btdc.

The wiring appears to be spot on, and the bike ran perfectly well with the old Boyer on it.

Has anyone any ideas

It might be instructive to try the test that I applied to mine (see my earlier contribution to this thread) whereby I attached a timing disc, removed the plugs and lay them on the cylinder head with the leads attached. I then slowly turned the engine over (with ignition on) and watched out for where the sparking occurred. I was surprised by the results, which seemed to indicate exactly why mine wouldn't fire or start.

Howard,

I did exactly as you said, took two of us but we determined that it was sparking at about the right time. Check your sensor board for dry joints and here is what Andy from Pazon sent me:

"If you are getting good sparks whencranking, it would suggest that this is either a serious timing error or amechanical problem (valve timing, fuel, etc).

Has the timing mark been verified, e.g.against a degree disc?

Has there been any mechanical work donerecently, prior to fitting our ignition?

As you say, it may be worth refitting theBoyer as a check that the mechanics and fuel are ok.

There are a couple of other things tocheck before doing that.

Check that the magnetic rotor is nottouching the back of the trigger, especially the trigger connector block.

There are two soldered pins on the back ofthe trigger, where the terminal connector block is.

Check that they are not scoring the top ofthe magnetic rotor.

If in doubt, get a small pair of wirecutters and snip the tops off the two pins.

You can check the polarity of the rotormagnets, if you have a magnetic compass or known good magnet marked with N andS poles.

You would normally need to remove therotor to do this.

Both magnets should have SOUTH polesfacing outwards.

If the magnets are both the wrong way(north out), the ignition will still fire, but very retarded.

This produces the same effect as reversingthe trigger wires (W-B and Y-B).

Not sure about the Norton Jubilee.

Our Sure Fire ignition does fire veryretarded at very slow cranking speeds, but not sure where this figure camefrom.

At normal cranking (kick-start) speeds theignition fires at a good retarded point for starting."

Hope this helps you. It really is quite good when it works.

Best Wishes

Jack

Thanks for the feedback, Jack, and congratulations on resolving a very annoying/frustrating problem (the kind of situation that has you doubting your own sanity). Noting your findings, I'm now inclined to try re-fitting the Pazon (I've actually been very pro electronic ignition since the first units for cars started to appear on the scene in the 70's when I fitted Sparkrites to my Rover 3500S and Triumph TR6 with perfect and long-lasting results so my initial experience with the Pazon was as unexpected as it was disappointing).

I, too, am now starting to suspect foul play in the carburation department, the ethanol/tank sealant interface being the elephant in the room. What's the way forward on that one I wonder.

Regards, Howard.