Jubilee/Navigator identification

Have you looked for the frame number on the gusset down by the swinging arm pivot? It might be very faint but lightly rub with some emery cloth might show up something.

The engne numbers with 17/ are 250 jubilee and the ones 19/ are navigator. Hope this helps and I am not stating something you already know!

Previously bruce_firth-clark wrote:

Previously douglas_barrie wrote:

Have you looked for the frame number on the gusset down by the swinging arm pivot? It might be very faint but lightly rub with some emery cloth might show up something.

The engne numbers with 17/ are 250 jubilee and the ones 19/ are navigator. Hope this helps and I am not stating something you already know!

Thanks for the info - I take any info at moment as a relative Norton "newbie" (apart from my first bike in 1967 - a Big 4 combo! Looked at that area of frame but paint will need to be removed and I'll get a better look

Hi Bruce. Please understand i am in no way an expert,but i do have a Navigator delux and a Jubilee delux,if as you say that the forks on your frame do not appear to be roadholders, i would suggest that they are Francis Barnett type forks therefore making it a Jubilee frame.Hope this helps.Regards Alan

Previously william_riches wrote:

Bill Riches email nanaandbill@hotmail.co.uk I am looking for a rotor for a 1960 Jubilee if you have a spare one in your boxes I would be interested in buying it

Hi Bill - sorry for delay - been away for a while! Still negotiating with previous owner so have left everything as is - apart from one complete engine (not stripped so no idea whats missing internally) the other engines have no rotors attached and I think there was only one in the "box" and that was in very poor condition, also no idea if this was from the 350 or 250 engine - don't think I can help at this stage, sorry.

Previously roger_kingsbury wrote:

Previously bruce_firth-clark wrote:

Hi Jubilee/Navigator gurus! Have just collected a number of boxes of bits that should be a Navigator - does appear on inspection they're mostly Jubilee but cannot define what the original bike was!!

Frame has no number to be found, 2x front wheels are both small brake size, forks don't appear to be "Roadholder" type, 1 complete engine is 17/115386/p, 2nd part engine is 99295/19 and 3rd engine cases are 99699/17. Registration plates (no V5) BHL 91C

To me this suggests this is a 1965 bike but is there any way to confirm whether this should be a Navigator or Jubilee, complete and 3rd part engine cases suggest Jubilee and 2nd engine is Navigator.

Can anyone suggest a way to confirm what original was - or is there a nice simple way in identifying from the frame type?

Any help would be most appreciated

Bruce

---------------------------------

HOLD TIGHT ...

You have quite a hotch-potch there, Bruce!

As stated by others, prefix (or suffix) 17/ is for Jubilee, whilst 19/ is for Navigator. The suffix /P implies manufacture at Plumstead Road, Woolwich (i.e. the AJS/Matchless factory) after the closure of the Norton works at Bracebridge Street, Birmingham.

Your registration plate implies c. 1965 as you say.

Complete engine 17/115386/P is a Jubilee unit, made in Woolwich c. 1965 ... and so may well be the original item. This will feature the later design of gearbox, as used in the Electra.

Part engine 99295/19 is a Navigator unit from 1961 (made in Birmingham) which will feature the original gearbox design. There will be a number N____ stamped on the right hand casing, behind the cylinders, and (e.g.) N 1234 means that it was the 1234th Navigator to be made.

Part engine 99699/17 is a Jubilee unit from 1961 (made in Birmingham) which will feature the original gearbox design. There will be a number J____ stamped on the right hand casing, behind the cylinders, and (e.g.) J4500 means that it was the 4500th Jubilee to be made.

Primary drive is common to all the above (only the Electra differs here), and the frame loops differ only in the number stamped on them â i.e. physically interchangeable.

PARTS THAT <DO> DIFFER ...

Front member. The steering head angle is different, and the head steady (size and position) is specifically matched to either 250 or 350 engine. NOT interchangeable.

Channel section (the bit that the rear of the engine, and the swing arm, attach to). For the later engines (new gearbox design, 1964 on) the lower engine mount will be a reinforced SLOT, whilst the original design featured a simple hole. Position different, so NOT interchangeable. [Yours should thus have the slot, but you will not be able to use this with your (early) Navi engine.]

Heads and manifold are different (P/N 20xxx for Jubilee, 22xxx for Navigator) likewise the con rods, so take care. The difference in length is just ?â (so hard to see) but it matters! The crank is different too, of course.

The rear wheel is common to both (250 and 350) but the sprocket is different : 55 teeth for Jubilee, 52 for Navigator.

To confirm what the bike was, you should remove the paint from the right hand pillion peg / exhaust bracket a/r. The number should still be discernible. My money is on a 1965 Jubilee (17/115386/P).

The club provide an excellent factory records service (for which you must pay them a little money â good value!) but they really need to frame number to that end.

If you live within (say) 100 miles of Portsmouth, Iâll happily help you identify what you have. Then you can work out what best to do with it all ...

Regards, Roger KIngsbury

Many many thanks Roger - knew it was worth joining the club! Once I've pulled it all out of storage (again) I'll remove the paint from the frame and check - hopefully it will match the complete engine! Looks like I'm going to go with this as a Jubilee as notice a fair number of parts available from various sources - still think I'm going to struggle with some though but as its a (very) long term project (retirement looms!) not too worried about any missing items.

Regards - Bruce

Just for interest - an update. The engine/frame numbers match 17/115386/P so I'm starting the rebuild.

Can someone confirm whether all the threads are going to be unf/unc or is there likely to be a mixture of british in there somewhere?

Bruce

Previously bruce_firth-clark wrote:

Previously roger_kingsbury wrote:

Previously bruce_firth-clark wrote:

Hi Jubilee/Navigator gurus! Have just collected a number of boxes of bits that should be a Navigator - does appear on inspection they're mostly Jubilee but cannot define what the original bike was!!

Frame has no number to be found, 2x front wheels are both small brake size, forks don't appear to be "Roadholder" type, 1 complete engine is 17/115386/p, 2nd part engine is 99295/19 and 3rd engine cases are 99699/17. Registration plates (no V5) BHL 91C

To me this suggests this is a 1965 bike but is there any way to confirm whether this should be a Navigator or Jubilee, complete and 3rd part engine cases suggest Jubilee and 2nd engine is Navigator.

Can anyone suggest a way to confirm what original was - or is there a nice simple way in identifying from the frame type?

Any help would be most appreciated

Bruce

---------------------------------

HOLD TIGHT ...

You have quite a hotch-potch there, Bruce!

As stated by others, prefix (or suffix) 17/ is for Jubilee, whilst 19/ is for Navigator. The suffix /P implies manufacture at Plumstead Road, Woolwich (i.e. the AJS/Matchless factory) after the closure of the Norton works at Bracebridge Street, Birmingham.

Your registration plate implies c. 1965 as you say.

Complete engine 17/115386/P is a Jubilee unit, made in Woolwich c. 1965 ... and so may well be the original item. This will feature the later design of gearbox, as used in the Electra.

Part engine 99295/19 is a Navigator unit from 1961 (made in Birmingham) which will feature the original gearbox design. There will be a number N____ stamped on the right hand casing, behind the cylinders, and (e.g.) N 1234 means that it was the 1234th Navigator to be made.

Part engine 99699/17 is a Jubilee unit from 1961 (made in Birmingham) which will feature the original gearbox design. There will be a number J____ stamped on the right hand casing, behind the cylinders, and (e.g.) J4500 means that it was the 4500th Jubilee to be made.

Primary drive is common to all the above (only the Electra differs here), and the frame loops differ only in the number stamped on them â i.e. physically interchangeable.

PARTS THAT <DO> DIFFER ...

Front member. The steering head angle is different, and the head steady (size and position) is specifically matched to either 250 or 350 engine. NOT interchangeable.

Channel section (the bit that the rear of the engine, and the swing arm, attach to). For the later engines (new gearbox design, 1964 on) the lower engine mount will be a reinforced SLOT, whilst the original design featured a simple hole. Position different, so NOT interchangeable. [Yours should thus have the slot, but you will not be able to use this with your (early) Navi engine.]

Heads and manifold are different (P/N 20xxx for Jubilee, 22xxx for Navigator) likewise the con rods, so take care. The difference in length is just ?â (so hard to see) but it matters! The crank is different too, of course.

The rear wheel is common to both (250 and 350) but the sprocket is different : 55 teeth for Jubilee, 52 for Navigator.

To confirm what the bike was, you should remove the paint from the right hand pillion peg / exhaust bracket a/r. The number should still be discernible. My money is on a 1965 Jubilee (17/115386/P).

The club provide an excellent factory records service (for which you must pay them a little money â good value!) but they really need to frame number to that end.

If you live within (say) 100 miles of Portsmouth, Iâll happily help you identify what you have. Then you can work out what best to do with it all ...

Regards, Roger KIngsbury

Many many thanks Roger - knew it was worth joining the club! Once I've pulled it all out of storage (again) I'll remove the paint from the frame and check - hopefully it will match the complete engine! Looks like I'm going to go with this as a Jubilee as notice a fair number of parts available from various sources - still think I'm going to struggle with some though but as its a (very) long term project (retirement looms!) not too worried about any missing items.

Regards - Bruce

Thank you Patrick, I was afraid of that! As it's boxes of bits there's loads of fasteners missing - looks like some thread gauges are called for then

Bruce

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

Hello there,

Unless the later bikes are very different there are lots of different threads used on the Jubilee - there are no metric threads to my knowledge but virtually anything else is possible. Cycle thread is commonly used on the frame but there are occasional UNF as well - silencer brackets for instance. BSF is common as well as Whitworth around the engine as well as the occasional BA. There are pipe threads on the fuel tank and oil tanks.

You mention UNC but I believe that the coarse threads on the engine casings are all Whitworth which is very similar to UNC but a proper engineer might disagree with me.

Anyway just play it cautious and try to keep nuts and bolts together when disassembling.

Patrick

Ah, but I like Jigsaw puzzles as well and this is certainly one of them!

Bruce

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

Hi Bruce,

The surprising thing is that after years of playing with old British bikes you can identify most common use thread forms simply by sight. The ones I stll find most confusing are BSF and UNF. They look surprisingly alike but simply don't match up. So if a nut doesn't screw up smoothly by hand then suspect it's a wrong thread rather than forcing it.

Cycle threads and Whitworth threads are always quite easy to identify but UNC seems to interchange with Whitworth remarkably easily although not strictly correct.

It will keep you occupied in your workshop and be more exciting than jigsaw puzzles. So good luck on your rebuild.

Patrick

Ah, but I like Jigsaw puzzles as well and this is certainly one of them!

Bruce

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

Hi Bruce,

The surprising thing is that after years of playing with old British bikes you can identify most common use thread forms simply by sight. The ones I stll find most confusing are BSF and UNF. They look surprisingly alike but simply don't match up. So if a nut doesn't screw up smoothly by hand then suspect it's a wrong thread rather than forcing it.

Cycle threads and Whitworth threads are always quite easy to identify but UNC seems to interchange with Whitworth remarkably easily although not strictly correct.

It will keep you occupied in your workshop and be more exciting than jigsaw puzzles. So good luck on your rebuild.

Patrick