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1955 model 30 no return oil

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Just had my 1955 Model 30 timed and it seems to be running great.Starts right up . I happen to look into the oil tank when running and seen no evidence of oil returning ( I know it was prior to having the timing done). After running for 4 minutes or so I turned it off and drained the sump and only a couple of ounces of oil came out. I was afraid to run it any longer without knowing if the oil was circulating. Is this unusual ? Should I have run it longer? What’s next ?

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If so you are creating pressure.

  • is your pressure relief set ok?
  • wet your cam feed and continue running. 
  • adjust your piston skirt supply so you can see smoke on tick over
  • disconnect return to tank pipe and back feed oil to eliminate air lock
  • run again with pipe into container to observe flow

If no pressure:

  • check your oil level,
  • pump drive,
  • flow from oil tank. 

I trust you are speaking of ignition timing setting that was successful, but what was done?  Any disassembly of the mag drive sprockets, vis a vie oil pump drive?   Did you drain a wet sump prior to starting?  What oill are you using?

Any anti wet sump devices?

Cam feed is relatively low pressure ( I run around 5psi). Don’t expect too much flow there.

First answer will be best indicator as to what’s up.

interested to see what you find.

 

J

 

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Have you or someone done anything else to the motor other than adjust the timing? If not then the situation is the motor pumps oil because the tell tale lifts, there is no return oil either because there is a blockage or the pump is not raising sufficient pressure to lift the oil. What oil are you using?

Before you run the motor for tests manually lube what you can.Using your engine oil; wet the inside of the top bevel box, pump some oil into the cam, wet the valve caps or stems. Back feed some oil down the return to tank line.

There are three parts to your oil pump your pressure gear, bottom bevel scavenge gear and sump scavenge gear. The tell tale lift suggests pressure side is working.  If you disconnect the top of the cam box feed you will see oil issuing there when running, not a lot but it should lift to that outlet when it’s free. The pressure the pump generates is controlled by the pressure relief valve under the mag platform and behind the mag drive casing (awkward) but maybe disturbed when working on timing. Curiosity….  If you have low or no flow to the cam box feed the pressure relief maybe blowing off early. There is an oil quill into the end of the crank under the cover nut on the mag chain casing. That is the main delivery point to rotating elements. Is that clear and installed correctly? The other drillings from the pump go to the cylinder spray on the rearmost bolt at the top of the cases and the cambox feed.

Disconnect the return line to the tank at the tank and lower the hose.  If it drains oil lift it, when it’s running check to see if oil arrives. The return capacity of the pump is greater than the supply side so should produce a healthy flow. If it’s not coming back you either are blocked or the scavenge gears have failed.

Let’s see what you discover before we go further.

J

 

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There's a yoke which connects the half time pinion to the oil pump.  The slot in its centre may have failed, or the external drive on the oil pump.  That would not affect the valve or ignition timing, just the oil pump drive.  If this has happened, it suggests that the pump may have bitten something. Maybe

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First of all I really appreciate the responses. This bike is new to me and there is a learning curve to have a better understanding of it’s intricacies.

The tell tale rises a full 3/4”

I’m using Morris 40wt 

Note from previous owners, “ Supplementary oil feed to cylinder wall adjusted by screw at n/s end of rear crankcase bolt. Now screwed fully home and the apertures sealed with silicon at the cylinder base flange. ( system caused too much smoke at tick-over)”.

Ran bike with cam feed adjuster fully closed and 1/2 turn open . Both ways had significant oil flow. 

Ran engine with oil return disconnected directly below oil tank. Seemed like a good flow to me. Blew compressed air back into oil tank with no sign of blockage. Back feed oil through disconnected pipe. Ran bike with it reconnected and still no evidence of oil entering the oil tank. I’m confused by this:when the return pipe is disconnected it has what appears to be good flow but when it’s reconnected I see no evidence of flow entering the oil tank.Oil tank does have anti-sump valve on supply. Oil flows freely below valve.  The only work done on bike was ignition timing and carburetor cleaning. 

Put everything back together and did a first gear around the block ride. While running still no evidence of any oil returning.

There were more things suggested to try but before I proceed I thought an update was in order. Any suggestions for the next steps are certainly appreciated.

 I had the timing done because I couldn’t get the bike to start. Last time the bike was on the road was mid- summer. Earlier in the summer I know the oil was returning ( it was easily seen). Bike starts easily.

 

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…as you say.  Next step for me would be to extend the return pipe above its highest return position then with the engine running see where the leveis that it starts to allow a flow. Note that then increase revs to see if it that level rises.  This will give you some indication of scavenge capacity.  My only concern now is that the scavenge delivery from the sump is restricted.   There hasn’t been any castor based oil near the motor has there?  As previous, there are two return pump segments. To confirm bevel return you could remove the top bevel cover and flood with lube down to the bottom bevel. Then you will see that return to the tank if it’s working.   On the basis that oil is pumping in, I would say the sump will fill on your journey around the block if the pump is not working. Therefore in the next part of your investigation (below), when you take out the sump plug there should be a good quantity of oil issuing. 

You now need to verify the route from the sump to the pump. Firstly have you got an endoscope (cheap enough at Aldi). You could look in from the sump drain plug and see if there is foreign matter over the pick up drilling, rear of casings; lower corner. Or signs of other debris in the casings. If nothing there we are in the realms of “pump, out….”   Let’s see how you go up to here…

Where are you in the world?

Cheers

Jon

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The return inside the tank on mine isn't actually visible.  The Dommie and 16H return pipes are easily seen, and it's easy to put a finger tip over the exit. Not so with the Inter, because the filler neck is that much longer, and the return is round the corner somewhere. When I started the bike the other day after an oil change (so I know the sump is completely empty), the level in the tank went down perhaps half an inch, and light froth started to swirl around on the surface.  You know it's delivering and you say there's not a lot gathering in the sump.  I wonder if you are looking for something you won't be able to see?

I must say that filling a hole - any oil hole - with silicone seems a bit drastic.  My excess smoke on tickover was caused by worn valve guides.

 

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Am I chasing a problem that doesn’t exist?

 I extended the oil return line to empty directly into the top of the oil tank. Oil returned in squirts ( definitely not any form of steady stream) and with higher revs, a bit stronger squirts. Ran engine for around 3 minutes. Drained the sump and only about 1 oz of oil drained out.  Should I expect a more steady oil stream from the return?

Should I expect more oil in the sump?

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Being a semi dry sump system  you will only be picking up the oil that issues from the bearings and piston mist. The delivery pump is lower capacity than the two scavengers so you will not get a lot of oil appearing at the pick up point in the cases so you sound like your good to go!

Your initial investigation will give you a clue as to how much oil “wet sumps” when it is standing for a period.  As you can imaging the first start up after a couple of weeks standing will be pumping out that escaped oil. That’s when you will see the highest flow until it’s scavenged it dry!

 A mild warning, it’s something you need to know as the owner of one of these motors: get familiar with the amount of oil that escapes over a period; some leak badly some not at all.  Starting with a full wet sump will cause you problems, the pressure created inside the sump will force it out of any joint or orifice and can potentially brake a casting a rod or a piston.  Don’t rev it on start up, give the pump a chance to clear the sump. Mine only needs draining after a three month layoff but in some cases I’ve had them wet up in a week. 

Enjoy!  

Jon

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Jon, David, Paul,

I really appreciate all of you responding to my issues. It’s a chilly week here in Ohio but I’m going to get some late season riding done. I learned a lot about this bike in the last couple weeks thanks to all of your inputs.

Cheers!

Fred

 


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