Fuel tank painting, North Yorks

Previously mark_appleby wrote:

Hi

Could anyone recomend a paint shop that is reliable and good quality, cheap would be nice as well, but I would rather pay more for a good job. Its for a 53 Norton ES2 (early swing arm model), although I also have stuff to do for a tiger cub as well. I would like to keep my money local, but a decent quality job is at the top of my like list.

Thanks

Mark, Pickering, North Yorks.

Well you a choice of the nice man in Beverley or Me, Yours Anna J Dixon

You can do my slimline tank too Anna, Dove grey and black.

How much if I take it down to bare metal?

Previously neil_wyatt wrote:

You can do my slimline tank too Anna, Dove grey and black.

How much if I take it down to bare metal?

why dove and black is it for a model 50 .as this is the colour that these bike where in , if you like black we paint it black over dove grey so send the tank plus paint I do the rest, yours Anna J

I'll deliver it Anna, I need to have the mudguards powder coated Dove grey first and the tank to match that shade.

It is for my 1960 99.

Once that is done I'll get the paint. Trial fit almost over.

Two tone, dove grey below the badges and gloss black above it. I will prime as soon as tank is bare metal. (Will slosh it too)

Hello Neil,

I expect that you are already familiar with painting but please do make a point of using a good 2K etch primer on the bare metal if you intend to do a good job. Spraying 2K paint carries a health risk because of poisonous fumes so proper air-fed breathing equipment supplied by a separate compressor is essential. The primer that comes in aerosols is virtually useless - OK for temporary use.

Presumably Anna has access to proper painting equipment as you really need a drying oven as well.

I was painting my Navigator tank yesterday which SHOULD be the black/dove grey but I am doing it red/dove grey so it looks like a Dommie!.

Patrick.

Thanks for the advice Patrick. I was going to use the aerosol etch primer but that will only be to protect the bare metal before the paint job.

Red and dove grey does look nice but I'm going for the original look since these are matching numbers.

Previously mark_appleby wrote:

Hi Anna

Where are you based, do you have an e-mail address I could contact you on (currently working on a boat abroad so no phone at the moment I am afraid)?

Thanks

Mark

Well I am based near Howden hull road Belby East yorkshire yours you find my phone number and email in a old roadholder from 2010/11 under branch secretary's yours Anna J Dixon

Fine Anna, will be at least another month as I need to have the mudguards powder coated first and then buy in the paint for you.

I might even bring it to an East Yorkshire NOC meeting? Shame about having to arrive in a car, during the summer.

Are Prestige near Barnsley still the best folks to have the tank badges chromed? Haven't had any chroming done of years.

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

Hello Neil,

I expect that you are already familiar with painting but please do make a point of using a good 2K etch primer on the bare metal if you intend to do a good job. Spraying 2K paint carries a health risk because of poisonous fumes so proper air-fed breathing equipment supplied by a separate compressor is essential. The primer that comes in aerosols is virtually useless - OK for temporary use.

Presumably Anna has access to proper painting equipment as you really need a drying oven as well.

I was painting my Navigator tank yesterday which SHOULD be the black/dove grey but I am doing it red/dove grey so it looks like a Dommie!.

Patrick.

Hello Patrick this type of 2 pack as been band and out lawed you can no longer get it now, its the same with cellulose its now hard to get hold of , most 2k in our days is lacquerer over base coat and this is Acrylic paints now , but lots of cars are not sprayed with water based paint, its this EU again Health and safety rules again , yes I do use a proper breathing mast and my workshop as two fans extractors , and I use the Mini Gravity feed Gun these make less over spray, and keep the paint where you want it, I have 40 years experience of spray painting but having said this your alway learning something new so you never know it all just like engineering you have to keep a open mind ,But the paint used by Norton was Synthetic paint now know as techaloyd paint the VMCC have a lot of it, yours Anna J

Hello Anna,

It's good to know that you have a proper air fed mask and good ventilation as 2K contains isocyanates (in the hardener) and this gives off the toxic fumes when sprayed, It can even be absorbed via the skin so it is dangerous. I know of one experienced commercial vehicle painter who was taken to hospital by emergency ambulance because he didn't wear a 'cissy painting suit'. He did survive but only just - it is the experienced painters who are the worst for taking risks. A good rule of thumb is ' if you can smell the paint get out of the spray booth'.

The legal position is a bit contradictory as it is apparently now illegal for a registered 'bodyshop' to use 2K or even cellulose paint but it is not illegal to use 2K or cellulose if you are not a registered bodyshop. So anyone can go into their trade paint supplier and buy 2K paint. Strange that the paint tins and the hardener then carry the legend 'For professional Use Only'. Well the ones I bought last thursday did.

As far as I know modern water based paint still contains isocyanates so care is need with this as well. And lacquer unless it has changed recently is still 2K. You really need an oven when painting with water based paint as it takes too long to air dry.

At the end of the day 2K is good paint but cellulose had a wonderful smell when spraying and it was non-toxic as well..

Patrick

Hello Neil,

Are Prestige still in operation? I thought they had closed down but I may be completely wrong and out of date - maybe they just moved.

Maybe 10 years ago when I lived in North Yorks I used Prestige for quite a few jobs and originally found them very helpful people. But when they were busy they became inconsistent in quality and they completely destroyed the quarterlight for an early MGB - a virtually unobtainable item.

Your tank badges come into this same category. So hopefully someone can give you a more up to date report.

Patrick

Well Anna, I hope your two extractor fans are correctly filtered, as itâs strictly against the law to extract paint fumes into the atmosphere unfiltered, best to use a free standing internal filtration system, which pulls the fumes in & pushes clean air out, keeping everything contained within your spray booth. 2k & cellulose paints are still available for industrial use & for use in the restoration of classic vehicles, although thereâs no classification of what constitutes a âclassicâ vehicle, hence mixing formulations are still available for a wide range of modern automotive colours. Patrick is correct when he says some water based paints still contain isocyanates but they also contain lower levels of volatile organic compounds (VOCâs), which are mainly found in spirit based solvents & is what most of the regulations are aimed at. Water based paint is, however only a base coat system & still requires lacquering with a good old fashioned 2k lacquer. He also makes a good point about isocyanates being absorbed into the skin; I have a good friend & colleague who also refused to wear the cissy paint suit & now has serious nerve problems, the isocyanates absorbed into his skin & have started to eat away at & destroy his nervous system. There is no cure! Exposure to them can also lead to a much higher instance of occupational asthma; vehicle refinishers have higher instances of this any other industry. The rule of thumb âif you can smell the paint, get out of the boothâ is ok, but unfortunately, the most harmful particles are completely invisible under all but special lighting & are almost odourless so if you do have to use these paints, use a spray suit & ALWAYS use an air fed mask, nothing else will offer you any protection. Oh, & please donât extract the fumes into your neighbours gardens, they my not have the necessary breathing apparatus

Regards, Tim

Previously tim_gostling wrote:

Well Anna, I hope your two extractor fans are correctly filtered, as itâs strictly against the law to extract paint fumes into the atmosphere unfiltered, best to use a free standing internal filtration system, which pulls the fumes in & pushes clean air out, keeping everything contained within your spray booth. 2k & cellulose paints are still available for industrial use & for use in the restoration of classic vehicles, although thereâs no classification of what constitutes a âclassicâ vehicle, hence mixing formulations are still available for a wide range of modern automotive colours. Patrick is correct when he says some water based paints still contain isocyanates but they also contain lower levels of volatile organic compounds (VOCâs), which are mainly found in spirit based solvents & is what most of the regulations are aimed at. Water based paint is, however only a base coat system & still requires lacquering with a good old fashioned 2k lacquer. He also makes a good point about isocyanates being absorbed into the skin; I have a good friend & colleague who also refused to wear the cissy paint suit & now has serious nerve problems, the isocyanates absorbed into his skin & have started to eat away at & destroy his nervous system. There is no cure! Exposure to them can also lead to a much higher instance of occupational asthma; vehicle refinishers have higher instances of this any other industry. The rule of thumb âif you can smell the paint, get out of the boothâ is ok, but unfortunately, the most harmful particles are completely invisible under all but special lighting & are almost odourless so if you do have to use these paints, use a spray suit & ALWAYS use an air fed mask, nothing else will offer you any protection. Oh, & please donât extract the fumes into your neighbours gardens, they my not have the necessary breathing apparatus

Regards, Tim

Apart from the safety and health issues you have mentioned. If it was me I would like some recommendations from previous customers regarding quality of finish. Also I would want to see samples of previous paint jobs before I went ahead. If none are available I would go to a professional.

John Mc

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

Hello Anna,

It's good to know that you have a proper air fed mask and good ventilation as 2K contains isocyanates (in the hardener) and this gives off the toxic fumes when sprayed, It can even be absorbed via the skin so it is dangerous. I know of one experienced commercial vehicle painter who was taken to hospital by emergency ambulance because he didn't wear a 'cissy painting suit'. He did survive but only just - it is the experienced painters who are the worst for taking risks. A good rule of thumb is ' if you can smell the paint get out of the spray booth'.

The legal position is a bit contradictory as it is apparently now illegal for a registered 'bodyshop' to use 2K or even cellulose paint but it is not illegal to use 2K or cellulose if you are not a registered bodyshop. So anyone can go into their trade paint supplier and buy 2K paint. Strange that the paint tins and the hardener then carry the legend 'For professional Use Only'. Well the ones I bought last thursday did.

As far as I know modern water based paint still contains isocyanates so care is need with this as well. And lacquer unless it has changed recently is still 2K. You really need an oven when painting with water based paint as it takes too long to air dry.

At the end of the day 2K is good paint but cellulose had a wonderful smell when spraying and it was non-toxic as well..

Patrick

well I use Acrylic base paint then lacquer over the top these have No Isocyanate's in them and if they had I would no used them any way, the correct paint for Norton was I.C.I techaloyd Synthetic coach paint, and low baked over 16 hours , but with Acrylic I leave it for two days to low bake and cure, , and the Tank on my Norton Manxman is Metallic paint base coat then I used a Anti- ethanol Lacquer yes you can get them but there expensive just to lacquer one tank cost £32 and my tank is only a 2.1/2 gallon tank but the finish look great and it work well too there no more wrinkling of paint around the fuel cap and if you spill some on the tank it dose not turn to mush , like some paint work I have seen , Yours Anna J

Previously mark_appleby wrote:

Hi

Could anyone recomend a paint shop that is reliable and good quality, cheap would be nice as well, but I would rather pay more for a good job. Its for a 53 Norton ES2 (early swing arm model), although I also have stuff to do for a tiger cub as well. I would like to keep my money local, but a decent quality job is at the top of my like list.

Thanks

Mark, Pickering, North Yorks.

Hello Mark,

I have had a number of Nortons painted by Mick at "Paint my Ride" in Richmond. He has always done an excellent job on tanks and tinware that I have had painted.

Regards,

Peter Austin

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

well I use Acrylic base paint then lacquer over the top these have No Isocyanate's in them and if they had I would no used them any way, the correct paint for Norton was I.C.I techaloyd Synthetic coach paint, and low baked over 16 hours , but with Acrylic I leave it for two days to low bake and cure, , and the Tank on my Norton Manxman is Metallic paint base coat then I used a Anti- ethanol Lacquer yes you can get them but there expensive just to lacquer one tank cost £32 and my tank is only a 2.1/2 gallon tank but the finish look great and it work well too there no more wrinkling of paint around the fuel cap and if you spill some on the tank it dose not turn to mush , like some paint work I have seen , Yours Anna J

Anna, You are correct in saying acrylic base coats contain no isocyanates, but if the lacquer is a two pack system, ie chemically hardened, the activator WILL contain isocyanates. If it is not chemically activated/hardened, then it will be a solvent based lacquer,which basically dries by evaporation of the solvents. This will not tollerate petrol as the ethanol is a solvent it's self & will simply re-soften the paint, then you get the wrinkling you refer to.

Regards, Tim

Previously tim_gostling wrote:

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

well I use Acrylic base paint then lacquer over the top these have No Isocyanate's in them and if they had I would no used them any way, the correct paint for Norton was I.C.I techaloyd Synthetic coach paint, and low baked over 16 hours , but with Acrylic I leave it for two days to low bake and cure, , and the Tank on my Norton Manxman is Metallic paint base coat then I used a Anti- ethanol Lacquer yes you can get them but there expensive just to lacquer one tank cost £32 and my tank is only a 2.1/2 gallon tank but the finish look great and it work well too there no more wrinkling of paint around the fuel cap and if you spill some on the tank it dose not turn to mush , like some paint work I have seen , Yours Anna J

Anna, You are correct in saying acrylic base coats contain no isocyanate's, but if the lacquer is a two pack system, ie chemically hardened, the activator WILL contain isocyanate's. If it is not chemically activated/hardened, then it will be a solvent based lacquer,which basically dries by evaporation of the solvents. This will not tolerate petrol as the ethanol is a solvent it's self & will simply re-soften the paint, then you get the wrinkling you refer to.

Regards, Tim

Well its as no harder its solvent based thats why I leave it for two days to cure before the lacquer and that why I used this Anti -ethanol lacquer and this has no harder so its solvent based as well , I do read the labels before buying any automotive paints Yours Anna J

Yes Anna, I know the base coats have no activator, it's the lacquer I was refering to. If you have found a lacquer that does not need a chemical activator to make it cure but is ethanol proof, I would be very interested to know what it is. As you may know, I have been in the automotive refinishing trade for well over 30 years & have yet to find a single pack lacquer that offers much resistance to any solvent, even after baking or leaving to cure for months. I have talked to most of the major automotive paint manufacturers recently to see what they have to offer in the way of ethanol resistant paints & none of them have mentioned anything but two pack systems containing nasty toxins, & they won't even guarantee that they won't be affected. They all say much the same, which is use a high solids 2K system, low baked & then left at least one week before putting petrol anywhere near it, it's the same for lacquer or solid colours.

Regards, Tim

Previously tim_gostling wrote:

Yes Anna, I know the base coats have no activator, it's the lacquer I was refering to. If you have found a lacquer that does not need a chemical activator to make it cure but is ethanol proof, I would be very interested to know what it is. As you may know, I have been in the automotive refinishing trade for well over 30 years & have yet to find a single pack lacquer that offers much resistance to any solvent, even after baking or leaving to cure for months. I have talked to most of the major automotive paint manufacturers recently to see what they have to offer in the way of ethanol resistant paints & none of them have mentioned anything but two pack systems containing nasty toxins, & they won't even guarantee that they won't be affected. They all say much the same, which is use a high solids 2K system, low baked & then left at least one week before putting petrol anywhere near it, it's the same for lacquer or solid colours.

Regards, Tim

well what happen to you bringing you tank to our last meeting in June.!!! you would of see some interest bikes like Nick's 1929 Scott two Stroke twin and a New Commando 961 along side old 1950's and 1960's Norton's and a strange looking Blue Norton Manxman 650 with its nice red seat, all being photographed and a other good turnout of Norton motorcycles yet again from the East yorkshire Branch yours anna J

Time to lock this one Chris? As usual, the thread has degenerated into totally irrelevant blathering!

Now John, it's not taking any harm and locking only causes grief...Who needs it? And is it necessary? A good thread to discuss paint in the future. All my bikes have paint on them!

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously tim_gostling wrote:

Yes Anna, I know the base coats have no activator, it's the lacquer I was refering to. If you have found a lacquer that does not need a chemical activator to make it cure but is ethanol proof, I would be very interested to know what it is. As you may know, I have been in the automotive refinishing trade for well over 30 years & have yet to find a single pack lacquer that offers much resistance to any solvent, even after baking or leaving to cure for months. I have talked to most of the major automotive paint manufacturers recently to see what they have to offer in the way of ethanol resistant paints & none of them have mentioned anything but two pack systems containing nasty toxins, & they won't even guarantee that they won't be affected. They all say much the same, which is use a high solids 2K system, low baked & then left at least one week before putting petrol anywhere near it, it's the same for lacquer or solid colours.

Regards, Tim

well what happen to you bringing you tank to our last meeting in June.!!! you would of see some interest bikes like Nick's 1929 Scott two Stroke twin and a New Commando 961 along side old 1950's and 1960's Norton's and a strange looking Blue Norton Manxman 650 with its nice red seat, all being photographed and a other good turnout of Norton motorcycles yet again from the East yorkshire Branch yours anna J

Sorry Anna, I haven't got a clue what you're talking about ? I was never invited to your meeting or suggested I'd come. I asked for more details of the single pack ethanol friendly lacquer you claim to have found, as I, & I'm sure others, would be very interested to know who makes it & where we could get it, & if it lives up to your claims. I'm affraid I'm not really interested in two-strokes, or strange looking blue things with red seats, & I can see plenty of 961's without venturing to east Yorkshire.

Regards, Tim

Previously tim_gostling wrote:

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously tim_gostling wrote:

Yes Anna, I know the base coats have no activator, it's the lacquer I was refering to. If you have found a lacquer that does not need a chemical activator to make it cure but is ethanol proof, I would be very interested to know what it is. As you may know, I have been in the automotive refinishing trade for well over 30 years & have yet to find a single pack lacquer that offers much resistance to any solvent, even after baking or leaving to cure for months. I have talked to most of the major automotive paint manufacturers recently to see what they have to offer in the way of ethanol resistant paints & none of them have mentioned anything but two pack systems containing nasty toxins, & they won't even guarantee that they won't be affected. They all say much the same, which is use a high solids 2K system, low baked & then left at least one week before putting petrol anywhere near it, it's the same for lacquer or solid colours.

Regards, Tim

well what happen to you bringing you tank to our last meeting in June.!!! you would of see some interest bikes like Nick's 1929 Scott two Stroke twin and a New Commando 961 along side old 1950's and 1960's Norton's and a strange looking Blue Norton Manxman 650 with its nice red seat, all being photographed and a other good turnout of Norton motorcycles yet again from the East yorkshire Branch yours anna J

Sorry Anna, I haven't got a clue what you're talking about ? I was never invited to your meeting or suggested I'd come. I asked for more details of the single pack ethanol friendly lacquer you claim to have found, as I, & I'm sure others, would be very interested to know who makes it & where we could get it, & if it lives up to your claims. I'm affraid I'm not really interested in two-strokes, or strange looking blue things with red seats, & I can see plenty of 961's without venturing to east Yorkshire.

Regards, Tim

you telling me your not interested in Nortons then why have them !!