My ES2 has done 300 miles of running in miles since restoration was completed. It will happily cruise at up to 60 mph on the flat, but then I tried to overtake a slower bike and it started to misfire. At anything over 1/2 throttle it acts like it's suffering from fuel starvation and if I open the throttle fully, it just dies until revs drop way down, when it fires intermittently. Curiously the plug is quite sooty. I have not done a plug chop as shutting down on the valve lifter makes me cringe!
At first I suspected a piece of cork from a tap, but the main jet was clear. I have since installed a fuel filter, removed the carb and blown out every orifice I could find, to no avail.
The mag was rebuilt by Dave Lindsley many years ago.
Any ideas?
Exactly what work was done…
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Hi Peter, thanks for…
Hi Peter, thanks for replying. The bike was a really desparate basket case - about half of it missing. Yes, I did the work myself, with some help from friends more knowlegeable that I, and it took a LOT of years to find all the parts (I'm in western Canada and bikes like this are pretty scarce). The fuel tank is not lined, but is not rusty. Taps both have fine gauze filters. Good flow from both taps and no debris in collected fuel. I can't remember how we timed the valves, but that was one thing that did have help with. It idles nicely and runs great below half throttle.
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You need a theoretical 132…
You need a theoretical 132 ml/minute fuel flow for a 25 bhp bike. More than that is good, as a safety margin.
I don't know know what exactly you unscrew or open, to let petrol flow through a pre-Monobloc float bowl.
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Thanks for that - I'll try…
Thanks for that - I'll try and measure it. There is nothing to open or unscrew on the float bowl, but it seems to pass plenty. I've blown out all the apertures in it too.
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Just checked the taps - each…
Just checked the taps - each one flows 150 ml in about 20 seconds. One a bit faster than the other. Removing the blanking plug at the end of the float bowl arm yields about the same, so no restriction there. Good thought though!
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In the words of AO…
If you think it's fuel system, it's probably electrical. As Peter says plenty to check, but my tuppence is on the mag.
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Thanks, Jon. You may well…
Thanks, Jon. You may well be correct as the mag has been sitting unused for a long time. I was at a rally last weekend and one bloke told me that you need a really good ground between mag and engine. Is that correct? If so, I doubt that I've got that with the engine plates painted.
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Faulty mag ?
Hi Howard,
I am in agreement with Jon that the mag is the problem. If you have a long hill near you, try the bike up and down and see if the misfire happens at the same speed. If it's fuel starvation when you go down hill the effect will be much less than when you go up. Most likely the mag is failing when it reaches a certain speed, possibly the points.
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Thanks for your comments,…
Thanks for your comments, Richard. It seems to misfire as soon as the throttle is opened more than half way (I have tape on the twistgrip to mark it) . The curious thing is that fully opening the throttle literally kills the engine until speed reduces, but going back to half throttle revives it. I did actually ride up and down some hills when out at a rally and it seemed to be more throttle opening dependant than rpm dependant. I'll check that out further.
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What is main jet size? And…
What is main jet size? And has it come loose? Is the air slide fully up and clear of the throttle mouth? If it's only half way up, it won't have any effect until the throttle slide is also half way up.
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Hi David, Main jet is 170…
Hi David, Main jet is 170. I pulled it twice to see if it was blocked, but it was clear - and tight. Air valve fully up and clear. I have since changed ti jet to a 160 (as per Amal manual) and dropped the needle a a notch as it occurred to me that it was possibly getting too much fuel , hence the soot on the plug. That made it slightly worse I think.
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If the ignition system (mag…
If the ignition system (mag or coil based) is only just managing to produce a spark then changes in the throttle applied can result in the spark failing to jump the plug gap. It is known that if there is more fuel in the combustion chamber the spark finds it harder to jump. As a consequence you get a missfire and a black sooty plug and exhaust because of the unburnt fuel.
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Thanks for your comment,…
Thanks for your comment, Norman. I'm starting to think that ignition is the culprit. The mag was rebuilt many years ago but sat unused until now. Time for a rebuild maybe!
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A magneto usually gives…
A magneto usually gives better spark when spinning fast.
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Things that can make it fail…
Things that can make it fail to spark when pulling hard are fouled plug, plug gap too big, high resistance (such as suppressors) in the HT circuit, dirty slip ring (the slip ring is not the cam ring).
If it's rpm related, rather than throttle opening related, could be points stiff to move on the pivot, or points pusher stiff to slide, depending what sort of magneto it has.
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Thanks again, Michael. I…
Thanks again, Michael. I did change the plug to a NOS KLG F-70 and gapped it to 17 thou (Phil Garratt book says 15 - 18). Plug cap is old style non suppressor. Could the HT lead be a problem? It is modern automotive style ? Mag is a Lucas MOIL. I'll check slip ring and points assembly. Thanks for that, although the problem seems to be related to throttle opening rather than rpm.
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Throttle opening is the clue
Hi, Another advocate for getting the mag checked. The wider the throttle is opened, the greater amount of energy required to make the spark jump the plug gap. As a quick check, if you can fix the ht lead such that its core is around 1/4" from the head, you should be able to get a spark to jump across at a good kickover speed. (Plug out!)
If no joy, make the gap smaller and recheck, but a good mag should easily jump a 1/4".
Regards, George
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When I was young..
..and foolish (as opposed to being old and foolish now) I bought an old Norton single that had reposed in somebody's front garden (remember when we could do that!) for a couple of years. I eventually got it to start and run, but it cut out every time on opening up the throttle. One of the roads into our estate (council, not private!) had a fairly long, straight hill. Managed to get up to the top, turned round and set off back down hill. 1st, 2nd, 3rd, still low throttle, then rammed it into first. (I think I looked behind me, but probably not). An impressive skid, but the engine, now forced into a higher RPM than previously, decided not to explode but actually began to run a lot better. Was fine(ish) for quite a while afterwards. Never really sussed what the problem was!
As they say on the telly, don't try this at home kids
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Checked that by taking the…
Checked that by taking the cap off and running a fine drill bit through it. Thanks for the thought!
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I still think it's worth…
I still think it's worth checking if the choke slide is not opening fully. That would account for bogging down at wide throttle opening, and a sooty plug.
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Thanks, David - choke slide…
Thanks, David - choke slide is fully opening fully. good thought though!
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My 2 Bob's worth.
It still sounds like the main jet is too large.
If the engine actually stops when you go over 1/2 throttle, then going down one jet size won't make any difference. You will need to go down 3 or 4 sizes as an experiment.
Has it got an air cleaner? Perhaps remove it completely and see if that helps.
I'd also replace that HT lead with a copper one.
As David Cooper says, a magneto usually works better as the revs increase.
I had a BSA M20 with a failing magneto. I eventually got the plug gap to 10 thou to keep it going, but once started it ran better the faster it ran.
Let us know what fixed it when the time comes.
Don Anson
Melbourne.
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Thanks Don. Will try a much…
Thanks Don. Will try a much smaller main jet. No air cleaner as such - just the original Amal bellmouth and screens.
The HT lead on there is a multi strand copper core.
Looks like this will take a while to sort - especially if I have to send the mag away!
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Partly because I find this…
Partly because I find this post very interesting and want to receive updates (which you now automatically get when participating in a post). Partly because your initial question raised a question for me: How do you cut the engine if not using the valve lifter? I've got an MO1L and see no other way than using the valve lifter to cut the engine.
As for your problem: I've had similar problems, but with bikes that featured an ignition coil. When the temperature got up, a break in the windings showed up, displaying exactly the problems that you're describing, although they were more rev related.
Could it be the windings in the magneto? You might be able to borrow one from someone?
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Hi Tim - I usually cover the…
Hi Tim - I usually cover the carb inlet with gloved hand to shut down. I don't mind using the valve lifter on an idling engine, but when doing a plug chop with high revs it somehow seems a bit mechanically unsympathetic!
There are no other bikes like this anywhere near me, so I think I'll send the mag out.
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Magneto?
As Tim D. has pointed out, if its the mag at fault then it should not be throttle related but engine speed related, has the OP tried to find the fault while working through the gears?
Also, cruising at 60 mph with only 300 miles on the engine? I'm assuming a total engine rebuild, new bearings, top-end, rebore and so on. 60 is too fast for a "new engine" with only 300miles on it, the poor thing will be working quiet hard at 60mph.
40-55mph on a small throttle opening, in top gear, would be plenty fast enough at this point in running in.
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Thanks for your comments, …
Thanks for your comments, John.
It is quite possible that the problem is rpm related, although after marking the twistgrip it did appear to surface at very similar throttle openings. I need to investigate further.
Also, thanks for your comment on running in. I could find no guidance in the old books so have been using small throttle openings up to now. The riding has been on pretty flat terrain and the speed of 60 was on dead flat & no wind. That was half throttle. Your guidance is appreciated.
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Many thanks for all your…
Many thanks for all your comments - gone to a rally - with a different bike. I'll resume investigation on this one later next week.
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Exactly what work was done in this restoration? Did you do the work yourself or someone else?
Does the tank have a filter? Have you checked the flow from the tank itself? Tank been lined? liner coming adrift? Has the engine been apart? Was the valve timing checked with a degree disc?. It is not unknown that the timing marks can be wrong. Lots of things to check.