Hi Guys,
I purchased this kit from RGM Norton in December 2023 and have just fitted it as part of my restoration project.
Initially there was no spark at the plug when the engine was cranked (kickstarted).
Measurements showed (see Fig 'A' in attached photos) that the post under the coils on the stator were only just reaching the top of the rotor magnets, suggesting the root cause is that the coil posts are too short and not cutting the magnetic field. (Stator 'Type 'N.T.1a').
This was validated by moving the rotor closer to the stator but putting a 3mm thick spacer washer under the rotor. The plug then sparked.
Clearly, spacing the rotor in this way is not a permanent solution as it is then not on the taper.
I have contacted Boyer and RGM for their comment.
Anyone else seen this issue?
Cheers.
Magnetic Issues
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I agree...
... I've had very quick and helpful responses from them. Well worth a try. Incidentally, you can also buy their products direct which is what I would always do so you've established contact.
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Magnets ok
Thanks Ian and Phil,
The magnets are fine - their strength supports the weight of the rotor, which is the 'spec' apparently.
I have also performed all other functionality tests suggested by Ernie Bransden in several articles. The system works.
I think I've proven that the rotor magnets are not running between the two metal posts on the trigger plate (stator).
What I'm not prepared to do is 'move the rotor out slightly by placing a thin metal shim around the taper' as also suggested by Ernie for 'some British bikes.' Sounds a bit 'bodgey' to me?
This is a brand new unit, bought specifically for this bike so should, surely, work without me modifying my bike in this way?
Clearly there are many of these units in service - just wondering if others have seen this issue or if I've installed it incorrectly...but I don't think so as the rotor just replaces the advance/retard mechanism on the same taper.
Cheers, Len
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Sorry if I've missed this…
Sorry if I've missed this already but could it be that your timing case points housing recess hasn't been cut to the correct depth or possibly a change in design with different covers over the years.
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Your picture of the fitted…
Your picture of the fitted rotor certainly seems to show it much to recessed. I no longer have Boyer on my Commando so cannot check.
Can anyone who has a boyer fitted have a look or take a picture to see how far inside the housing the rotor fits.
As it fits in the end of the camshaft, are you using the standard cam? (clutching at straws).
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Overlap
Just had a look at the Boyer ignition on another bike. The rotor looks to be to far recessed, as Tony R. says. The bike I've looked at has the magnets overlapping the "coil posts" by ~2.5mm.
I adapted a Boyer system from a single to fit my Navigator. I aimed for around 3mm overlap, sparks like a good 'un.
The way I would fix it would be to draw (CAD) the various parts, end of cam and rotor. Then move the parts apart to give me a sizes to machine a tapered sleeve. A fiddly job to do but I can't think of another way of fixing it, yet
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Cam
Thanks Tony,
Was wondering about the cam myself. I have no reason to believe the cam is not standard - the bores and crank were when I stripped the engine and it's not done a lot of miles from new. The cam looked standard when I stripped the engine but was ok and I didn't take much notice otherwise. It is is now refitted. (Hopefully in the right place?!)
As you said, I'm hoping others will have experience of this - I can't believe my bike is that unique. I know its history going back a long while.
The nice people at Boyer replied to my query today and suggested a worn cam taper and/or a low tolerance post length and offered to look for a longer post if I return mine. I shall ask what their tolerance on post length is before I go that route. I can't believe a fixed taper would wear that much. The dimensions of the male taper on the rotor are pretty much the same as that on the advance/retard mechanism that it replaced...but the position of the A/R doesn't matter that much as the points are mounted off it.
It would be interesting to have the design dimensions but obviously no access to those.
I will try the 'shimming the taper' route as a test and see where I get.
Thought about spacing the magnets away from the rotor but they are in very shallow slots and I don't want to lose this retention against rotation. Might try that as a last resort.
Sorry to ramble on - just thinking out loud as I go!
Cheers, Len
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Points to ponder
No pun intended but 'suit yourself'
Having taken a couple measurements I find the following, the pole piece is, on two boards 10mm. And the front of the rotor plate is 20mm from the outer edge of the crank case (where the cover sits) The later information does show that the rotor is recessed. And the measurement and visual show the rotor is too far in-board. as well as the pole pieces being short.
Way forward-compare your camshaft taper to another Commando. The taper cannot wear-nothing moves-wear comes from movement. Has anyone a Boyer rotor to give us some relevant dimensions?
Do NOT try spacing the magnets away from the back plate, they are glued into slots for a good reason. If, as we suspect your engine is within spec then one or both of the Boyer B parts are out of specification, So BB will replace them, otherwise the kit is Not fit for purpose.
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Pondered points
Hi Alan,
Thanks for your efforts..and the pun.
Like you, I don't buy the 'worn taper' suggestion but, to be fair, they do also mention positional tolerances.
The total length of the pole piece on my board is also 10mm (my previous stated dimension was to the chamfer on the end). I will ask Boyer what their tolerance is on that length as they have offered to select me a 'long tolerance' one. Not too hopeful that they will have an 11.5mm one, which is what I think I need.
I measure 21.3mm from my cover face on the crankcase to the front of the rotor plate, so not that different to you..but that 1.5mm is making all the difference.
I have now confirmed I also have a spark with a 1.5mm spacer washer under the rotor (i had previously only tested 3mm spacer).
I will also ask Boyer if they have a tolerance on the magnet height. (thanks for the glue tip).
So, currently (these non puns pop up everywhere?!) I have an overlap of about 2mm between magnet and pole piece. Hopefully I can get to 3mm, which is what another respondee suggests is adequate.
I'm certainly not planning to re-engineer this system and I don't like the idea of the suggested shimming of the taper and really don't see why I should have to do it.
These parts are obviously designed to fit many applications but they should be fit for purpose for all applications for which they are sold, in my opinion.
Thanks again for your help.
Cheers, Len
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Magnets..
The magnet height above the rotor surface is nominally 5mm. I do not think the magnets can change in size. Any height change in this area could be the slot in the rotor or thicker glue! This construction was done early on when just bolting the magnets on did cause a few to 'fly off'.
Could it be the length of the taper portion from the rotor base? Certainly this area was in need of 'adjustment' on the lightweights. In them the rotor interfered with the back of the stator plate, so moving the rotor into the engine further cured the problem. (in my case I re-machined the rotor taper)
Sorry if I've missed this already but could it be that your timing case points housing recess hasn't been cut to the correct depth or possibly a change in design with different covers over the years.
The idea that the timing cover has been wrongly machined is virtually impossible, this would have upset the points fitting long ago.
Can someone with a BB set up measure how far the rotor sits within the timing cover? As this is too far in to the engine. I am pretty sure the rotor is out of spec somehow. But also checking the camshaft is sitting/and the correct length is very much worth measuring.
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I am sure years ago it was…
I am sure years ago it was Boyer, or in the NOC Commando booklet mentioned that a few camshafts were made with a deeper than normal taper. This error didn't matter with the points system but could give problems with a Boyer and obviously other electronic ignitions. My brother's 750 and Tri-spark has the same problem fixed by fitting an extended magnet rotor.
Tri-spark and Boyer stock a rotor with extended magnets . I have one somewhere in my garage.
Give Boyer a ring you'll find them very helpful.
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Lateral Thinking
On most standard Dominator engines the camshaft can move in and out around 2 to 3mm thanks to the spring and breather plate on the left end. Does this Commando have a similar set-up that is not working correctly???
I appreciate that the later Commandos had a different camshaft and set-up.
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NO can't extend.
Let's extend the pins!Let's extend the pins! No Michael, this cannot happen as the coil is fixed very firmly with glue to the board and the pins are a standard size/length (From BB). It makes more sense to rebuild the rotor. The camshaft on the Commando does NOT have any spring mech behind so that is out.
The idea that 'some' camshafts had a deeper taper makes sense, waiting for someone to measure this from the Timing cover please. Once you have measurements to confirm (or NOT) that the engine is in spec, then the problem becomes one of parts supplied from BB.
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'Add to length'
I'd be doubtful about doing this - the centrifugal forces created would put a lot of stress on any joint which would obviously need to be very strong. The extensions would need to be ferrous steel/iron and welding/brazing or even silver soldering would risk damaging the rotor assembly (coils, pcb, soldered joints etc.).
I switched to Tri Spark many years ago but do recall that the rotor securing screw was fairly a generous length, I would have thought that a small spacer (same diameter as the smaller end of the taper) behind the rotor to move the rotor outwards a little wouldn't cause to much of a problem but I don't know how much of the interference fit would be left.
As suggested I thinks BB should be able to help with this.
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points work fine
Electronic ignition isn't generally retrofitted to a period Ferrari so why a Norton. Maybe these are more exposed than the cars but there's a cynical answer to why suppliers of electronic ignitions have an excellent service team. As an aside the taper on the other end of my crank wasn't standard, something possibly to do with it being an Andover based MK2a from '74 and an Interpol. Fortunately the rotor not being aligned with the RM23 stator hasn't been an issue but a new keyway had to be ground as the rotor was simply knocked on, as with some race bikes. It highlights that upgrades can upset the apple cart, if that's what your driving.
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I'd be doubtful about doing this…
I'm just as doubtful, but I like mad ideas.
There's no centrifugal force on the pins, because they are not on the rotating part.
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BECAUSE
Because the Lucas parts supplied were in poor 'cheap' manufacture, they wore out very quickly and your ignition timing went for a wander. Ignition timing out on a Norton engine of this vintage induced a lot of vibration and heating and a short life of a lot of parts ie valve gear even pistons if you got lucky. Electronic ignition incorporates wasted spark, the two cylinders ignition timing has GOT to be the same, this is almost the 'answer to a maidens prayer'.
The Norton is NOT a Ferrari and never will be, the Norton bikes are cheap mass production items!! and 60 years old!
POINTS WORK FINE-yes in some situations they might, a very simple principle, but very prone to wear and miss alignment. Electronic ignition cannot wear and timing STAYS were you put it.
upgrades can upset the apple cart, Yes ANY after market parts can be 'upsetting' Fit for purpose come to mind and buyer beware.
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When I commuted by Norton…
When I commuted by Norton with two sets of points, the ignition did work, but by Friday it wasn't running so well and the points needed to be cleaned and adjusted.
That was every week!
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Conclusion
Hi,
Many thanks for all your helpful comments.
In conclusion, the nice people at BB have offered to supply me a custom stator with 12mm pins if I return my stator to them. I'm confident that this extra 2mm will solve my problem.
Thanks again,
Len
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I am certainly not an…
I am certainly not an electrical expert by any means and my memory could be failing but many years ago I fitted a new Boyer unit on my 1976 Mk 3 Commando and that failed me after about 15 miles when was on (I think) a weekend NOC rally in the Lake District. It broke down (as usual my bikes usually do) outside a pub and there was a large pond outside, It was a hot day and I was very tempted to push into the pond with all of the camping gear, however I did manage to get it going and "limp" back home.
More to the point I phoned Boyer and, as far as I can remember, they said to check the resistance of the "coils" and report back to them. I did this and they told me the unit was faulty, to send it back to them and they would replace it which they did and all was OK. I have since replaced it with a Pazon unit however.
I attach a copy of notes on checking out Boyer units which maybe of help and apologise if I have got this wrong. Good luck.
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That's an excellent response...
...Leonard. I know Boyer kit is deprecated by many - and I have had problems in the past - but their offer is superb.
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Any chance that both the magnets are duff and not generating a large enough magnetic field???
The Boyer Company have an excellent service team who can be contacted. They will test and generally replace any faulty products for free.