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Purchase manuals electronically

More than once I have wished I could purchase parts books from the NOC shop electronically. These are copies rather than a bound book, so I assume they could be easily stored & released once payment was made? I for one would be happy to pay the full price, knowing I could have the manual in my hand in seconds, rather than weeks through snail mail from the UK to the USA & would save the postage costs.

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Skip - Have you checked Bruce Main-Smith's web site? I suspect you have (sorry!) but of course it isn't in his interest to make his stuff available electronically (even though it is out of copyright) because the recipient might then post it on the web and he'd soon go out of business. And ultimately we'd then be the poorer - especially if we have a minority interest which never gets put out.
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Have you tried Google. There are a number of websites which offer free downloads of both parts manuals and owners/ workshop manuals for various Nortons. I found copies for Model 7, 88,99, ES2,50 a d lightweight twins also legitimately available. For 16H try WD Norton site in Netherlands.

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Hi David, yes I have seen Bruce's site, very impressive. But I still would have the same delay in getting the info by snail mail. As to pirating the info, anyone could order his manuals, scan them & offer them online for their own profit, of place the info online for free. But he can protect himself from that with his own copyright. This can be seen with the "Kim the CD man" CD's. It has the legal warnings affixed, and you can be fined for reprinting without permission. You will find his logo on every page.

I prefer to order from the NOC whenever I can to support the club, I figured that it would be faster, cheaper & easier to sell electrocic coppies, rather than paying for paper, printer ink, and labor for hard copies. The club would enjoy a slightly higher profit in selling the electronic copies. The club could of course, still sell the hard copies to those who wish them.

I was recently looking for some specific info on 1950, 1951, 1952 ES2 parts lists & could not find all of them online, in which case I would be happy to support the club financially by purchasing the manuals electronically.

Another thought would be to offer an upgaded VIP membership that would allow full access to all available Norton parts books & workshop manuals. If this is of intrest, I would personally donate several hunderd pages of Norton, Lucas, Smiths, Girling, and Lucas info.

Skip

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Previously David Cooper wrote:

Skip - Have you checked Bruce Main-Smith's web site? I suspect you have (sorry!) but of course it isn't in his interest to make his stuff available electronically (even though it is out of copyright) because the recipient might then post it on the web and he'd soon go out of business. And ultimately we'd then be the poorer - especially if we have a minority interest which never gets put out.
I don't think that holds up, there's Nothing to to stop someone scanning a paper copy and putting it on line,, or photocopying it!
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Hi Dan,

it is done all the time thesedays, if you look at the "Kim the CD man" CD's, every page has his copyright on it. So it would be easy to identify. Someone clever could use whiteout & re-copy it, then scan, but there are also ways to put an electronic fingerprint that would allow the document to be identified. Most bigger houses sell electronic media nowdays & have copyright protection to prevent pirating, I am not sure of the mechanics of it though.

Skip

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Hi,

As I currently work as 'Treasurers Assistant' I will give you my view of what I think her view is on electronic downloads.

As I understand it, if say someone in France downloads a manual, the treasurer has to apply the appropriate rate for VAT in France, If they are from Spain then it is a different rate. There are 28 countries each with about 4 different rates. This then all needs to be collected and then passed on to the VAT man.

See the HMRC web site ref this.:-

VAT can be difficult enough without adding in non-UK VAT.

I think if anyone suggests implementing electronic downloads then you will be looking for a new treasurer next year !

Disclaimer :- The words above are mine and may not necessarily reflect the treasurers actual view.

Regards

Tony

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Easy answer: The club could give them away to club members! No vat to worry about then. Thecost would only be one book and a scan per manual, but in most cases I expect members would be happy to lend them or scan and email them to the club for free, so the only cost would be admin.

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Previously Dan Field wrote:

Easy answer as the cost is only one book and a scan, per manual, and prob most members would be happy to lend them or scan and email them to the club. The club give them away to club members! No vat to worry about!

I agreewithDan,we should all submit the technical information documents wehaveto acentral electronicrepository so all memberscanaccess it. There isanod towardsthis in TechnicalSectionbut it couldbe more formal. It would improve the standardofmachinemaintencce and take awaysome of theold wivestales,thatfloat about here....

Jon

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Hi All,

I appreciate that this was not originally about Commando manuals, but for those who wish to download for free a PDF of 750/850 Commando manuals and parts books have a look at Britmoto

Nick

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Previously Dan Field wrote:

Easy answer: The club could give them away to club members! No vat to worry about then. Thecost would only be one book and a scan per manual, but in most cases I expect members would be happy to lend them or scan and email them to the club for free, so the only cost would be admin.

The process is in hand to do this. Watch this space ...

Regards

Tony (Technical Administrator)

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Firstly, thank you Michael !!!!

Also, thank you Tony!!! I was looking at the Matchless & Vincent club sites & they have tons (tonnes) of free parts list online on their sites. I'm cool with limiting assess to club members, or open to the public.

As promised, I am happy to loan my archives to the club for scanning. I just this week added about a 3" thick pile of original Lucas books to my lot!!! Paid a lot, but they are different books than I have ever seen & cover Lucas parts from the mid 1930's to the late 1950's.

Please let me know when your ready for delivery :)

Skip

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Hi all,

just checking up on our progress on "on-line" manuals. I assume our valued club officers are out riding (as they should besmiley) rather than doing indoors computer stuff.

To help start the ball rolling, I am attaching a free copy of the AMC gearbox for all to enjoy. It looks best if printed on large paper approximately 26 inches by 39 inches.

Attachments norton_amc_gearbox-pdf
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Hi Skip,

As you say, riding rather than computing. I am waiting for the webmaster to get back up to speed after his US trip and then we will start working on it. I will also get in touch for any other documentation people may have.

Tony

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Skip, do you have any 1930s-dated Lucas parts publications ? I've seen 1950s lists which claim to cover back to the mid-thirties but unfortunately, they are a supersession minefield. I'd love to see what they really offered at the time.

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Previously richard_payne wrote:

Skip, do you have any 1930s-dated Lucas parts publications ? I've seen 1950s lists which claim to cover back to the mid-thirties but unfortunately, they are a supersession minefield. I'd love to see what they really offered at the time.

Richard; Ithink I canhelp ifSkipdoesnot comethrough. Anything inparticular that "sparks" your interest?

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Previously andy_marks wrote:

Hi Richard

Have you tried looking here. The parts list goes back to 1936. Very useful book with a lot of info in it!

Andy

Nice oneAndy,goodcrossreference lists, though somecontradictions in there. I have a disk ofLucas Manuals a dn some originalsfrom the30's Richard.

Cheers

J

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Thanks Chaps. I've seen the book which Andy has linked to (I very nearly bought an original copy) but ultimately decided that it contained too many updates. It is a 1957 publication and although many parts can be substituted, it's confusing for rivet-counters.

I'd like to see, for instance, original 1930s illsutrations of the 4DCP Horn Button and 9AC/1 dip switch together with any alternatives offered at the time.

I'm also trying to work out whether there were alternative left- and right-handed dynamo end covers...by the 1950s, one type was supplied for all but on late 1930s Nortons, this seems to mean either having the wiring exit at the wrong position or having the oiler cover plate positioned upside down.

None of this is earth-shattering but it fascinates me....

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Should the club really be using it's resources to sell manuals etc which are readilly available elsewhere, either free or at areasonable price?

What about talking to, for example,the NMM and posting a link to their manualspage; possibly in exchange for a smalldiscount to NOC members?

Rod

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Previously Tony Ripley wrote:

Hi Skip,

As you say, riding rather than computing. I am waiting for the webmaster to get back up to speed after his US trip and then we will start working on it. I will also get in touch for any other documentation people may have.

Tony

Hi Tony, any word on this project?

I have another very valuable piece to add :)

Attachments attachments_201618-zip
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I am all for the sharing of information. I know that this is aimed at older machines but I would be happy to upload my digital copy of the 961 manual for anyone to use.

Regards

Graham

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But he can protect himself from that with his own copyright. This can be seen with the "Kim the CD man" CD's. It has the legal warnings affixed, and you can be fined for reprinting without permission.

How can you copyright a copy of an original manual that is now out of copyright protection. Very much doubt you can, plus its a civil matter not a crimminal matter for simple copying of a manual so they have to sue for damages. So what are the damages for a copying a copy of material out of copyright ?

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Very much doubt you can, plus its a civil matter not a crimminal matter for simple copying of a manual so they have to sue for damages. So what are the damages for a copying a copy of material out of copyright?

Unfortunately, in the US it is litigated in federal court, like all interstate commerce. In my situation, I had to sue a small business. My excellent lawyer involved the IRS (among other scorched-earth tactics) and so the business now no longer exists. Although I was in the right, I very much regret this. It got out of control and was disproportionate. Don't underestimate the devastation of a law suit, whatever the outcome.

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Kim the CD Man can only hold copyright if it has been assigned to him by the original copyright holders. It's not like a trademark which becomes available to any applicant to register after a certain period regardless of any connection to the original holder (viz. 'Norvil' and 'Genuine Commando').

I don't know in this case but what he's likely to be selling is the reproduction rights to his copy of an expired-copyright document (or one where the original copyright holders no longer exist).

This is quite a common situation, even with institutions such as the Imperial War Museum who claim copyright on expired ex-Crown Copyright images...once again it is really about the reproduction rights to their copy (of a picture which was probably circulated to worldwide press agencies back in the day - and the successors to those agencies will mark their copies 'copyright' too, even though they received them free of charge at the time.

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Previously david_evans wrote:

Wow, remind me not to cross your path Smile

Wait, I gave that fellow countless opportunities to make things right. After describing the repairs he made to my BSA 441 cylinder head in an email, he later claimed he never received it and stuck to his story. I was unaware of his tax dodging which really brought him down. I never got my cylinder head back or any compensation.

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I've sent some ?Lightweight Twin? manuals to the NOC as a searchable PDF a few years ago. I have scanned them myself.

Even those aren't available in the shop until now.

Fritz

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theres no point of copying anything when there is a risk of people waiting in the background ready to take legal action against you . its not worth it.

just a thought if the club did make available copies of manuals and something did go wrong who would end up in a cell at the end of the day

 

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