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ES2 ignition issues

Submitted by john_baker2 on Saturday, 14 January, 2017 - 00:00
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ES2 Coil ignition.....using the genuine Norton 1961-63 manual..

So...adjusted the dist chain, set contacts to 15 thou, piston at TDC with both valves closed, loosened sprocket screw and pulled it off taper. Turned dist body for coil terminal at 6 o'clock, oil hole in spigot inline with filler hole/screw and clamp bolt set in middle of slot. Engine rotated back to 38 deg BTDC....

So far so good and exactly as the manual...BUT now the confusion...

"With a small screwdriver in the slot in the cam end (not in the central screw head) rotate the cam clockwise until the points just break...."

SO...if the sprocket is back on the taper then you can't rotate the cam as above. IF the sprocket is not tight on the taper then the cam spindle turns through 360 degrees...in which case which is the correct position for the cam? Slot up or slot down? And should this be adjusted with the sprocket on taper and if so how?

ALSO what purpose does the screw and washer serve in the end of the cam?

Sorry if this sounds a bit lame but I have tried various combinations and cannot get engine to fire up....so obviously I'm missing something!!!!! .Oh! and I do have a good spark at plug and petrol through the carb.

Thanks for looking

John

Submitted by robert_tuck on Saturday, 14 January, 2017 - 00:01

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The instructions are giving a way to set the timing with the auto advance wound up to max advance .An easier way would be to use a bigger washer under the screw to jam the unit after turning it against the springs in the fully advanced position. Then all you have to do is get the points just breaking and tap the taper up with the piston set at 38 deg. Simples!!!!. yeah right. In my world I get it to run and then back off a fraction to calm down any kickbacks to a mild bit of rebeliousness or advance a bit to the same. You can also make small changes to the timing by openning or closing the points gap a thou or so. Once in use I adjust the timing to get the spark plug electrode colour band in the right position ,but thats another story. The screw is in the center of the points cam and its function is to hold the assembly together but allow the cam to rotate on the inner shaft ,the jam washer I use is one used in cups and screws carpentry.Sounds like an odd thing, a taper on a coil ignition system??.

Submitted by john_baker2 on Sunday, 15 January, 2017 - 00:00

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Robert, thanks for quick reply and the info.

I'll try the cup washer method... but I am now thinking the problem is that the inner shaft of the points cam shaft is possibly seized as I don't see any separate movement between the shafts.

So...yet another attempt. I'll let you know how it goes.

regards John

Submitted by les_howard on Sunday, 15 January, 2017 - 00:03

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I wonder if your timing is 1 engine revolution out (360 Deg)...A very quick check is to block the plug hole with thumb and set the plug nearby connected to the HT lead in a position to observe it sparking. With ignition on, kick the motor over..if the ignition timing is OK you should see the plug spark seemingly at the same moment when your thumb is loudly popped off the hole . If the timing is one turn out you will see the plug sparking distinctly out of phase.

You could also check the timing when you have the bike running by fitting a timing disc on the crankshaft end and using a strobe light.

Les

Submitted by john_baker2 on Monday, 16 January, 2017 - 00:00

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Previously robert_tuck wrote:

squirt some wd 40 down the shaft and work it back and forth.

Robert, it's OK after all...but what a totally frustrating afternoon...firstly noticed that the dist clamp was bent which wasnt helping...then with everything setup correctly was unable to get the sprocket on the dist taper without loosing the point setup...tried again and again!!!!

now thinking I might need to lap the spocket and taper with some grinding paste to ensure a good fit.

why on earth did Lucas/Norton think this suitable ...woodruff key or pin like the 18D2 dist would make better sense!!!!!! Are there any complete replacements available for the D1 ???? So I can scrap the whole thing!

regards John

Submitted by john_baker2 on Monday, 16 January, 2017 - 00:04

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Previously les_howard wrote:

I wonder if your timing is 1 engine revolution out (360 Deg)...A very quick check is to block the plug hole with thumb and set the plug nearby connected to the HT lead in a position to observe it sparking. With ignition on, kick the motor over..if the ignition timing is OK you should see the plug spark seemingly at the same moment when your thumb is loudly popped off the hole . If the timing is one turn out you will see the plug sparking distinctly out of phase.

You could also check the timing when you have the bike running by fitting a timing disc on the crankshaft end and using a strobe light.

Les

THanks for reply Les...I have timing disc etc so am sure the valve timing is OK...problem is with the dist/ignition side of things...and the stupid sprocket/taper setup.

regards John

Submitted by les_howard on Monday, 16 January, 2017 - 00:05

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Hi John...I wasn't suggesting the valve timing was wrong, you can easily have the ignition timing 360 degrees out (1 cycle). I was just suggesting a check that takes seconds once the spark plug is out.

A slower method is to take off the rocker box inspection cover and see if the valves are both closed when the points start open near TDC. It's always best to start checking the basic things first then progress more deeply into the problem if the problem remains.

Worth checking I thought....Frown

Les

Submitted by robert_tuck on Monday, 16 January, 2017 - 00:06

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The taper/sprocket seems a better idea than the Pin on the 18d2, As long as there is also a clamp for fine tuning?. I'm still using an 18d2 but its backed up by a cheapish Boyer ignition booster ,so its easy to fix/set up.As Les said you need to be sure you are on the power stroke and not the exhaust stroke.

Submitted by john_baker2 on Tuesday, 17 January, 2017 - 00:00

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Previously robert_tuck wrote:

The taper/sprocket seems a better idea than the Pin on the 18d2, As long as there is also a clamp for fine tuning?. I'm still using an 18d2 but its backed up by a cheapish Boyer ignition booster ,so its easy to fix/set up.As Les said you need to be sure you are on the power stroke and not the exhaust stroke.

Submitted by john_baker2 on Tuesday, 17 January, 2017 - 00:07

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Thanks again chaps...all sorted now...the taper/sprocket grinding appears to have done the trick...probably getting a tighter fit...so the engine has fired up fine...its just fine tuning now on dist and carb!

Les, sorry I thought you were referring to valve timing as I had the rocker cover off, TDC with valves closed , pushrods free etc.and timing disc all set ... just the points shaft and sprocket not behaving!!

regards John

 



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