88SS 650SS crankcase differences

hello  now there is No differences   between the 650ss and model 88ss after april 1961 as both case have the hump at the back of the cases, And these  were from the earlier Norton Manxman 650 built from november  1960  Yours  Anna J 

The attachment shows some pre-1961 model 7, 77,  88 and 99 cases alongside a 1962 650 half case. On the 650 case you can see the bulge at the rear to accomodate the larger conrods used in those engines. As Anna points out, the later 88SS engines used the same cases as the 650. 

What year is your bike?  If the engine number is before 97,000 there is still a possibility of it being a genuine factory 88SS as several batches were built for Club Production Racers.  Mostly in Europe.

The 88SS was built alongside the 99SS in 1961 but used the 650SS style head whereas the 99SS used a twin carb version of the standard head. Prior to 1961 both engines were available with twin carb standard heads but were sold as 'specials' rather than SS machines.

Per NOC models section the 88 seems to concur partially with the parts book PS 214:

"The Standard version was produced until 1963, but the twin carburettor 88 Sports Special (88SS) brought out in 1961 continued until 1966, with a downdraught head being introduced from 1962".

Well the way PS214 page 54-55 is written, It is difficult to decipher.

PG 54: S650/136/ cylinder head c w/valve guides/  61, 88SS and 62 650SS

next line:

PG55: 88SS/136/ cylinder head c w/valve guides/ 61. 88SS and 61/62 99SS

TYPO ???

Should pg 54 not read"S650/136/ cylinder head c w/valve guides/  62, 88SS and 650SS

(not to address 61 manxman in this topic)

The parts book as written makes no sense!

It sounds in the parts book. as printed.  like the 88SS never gets the S650/136 downdraft head.

Here in the USA this is almost impossible to make sense of...I'm going with:

1961 88SS uses  88ss/136 head as does 61&62 99SS

1962 88SS uses S650/136 (downdraft head)

We should all know by now the 650 only used the down draft head.

http://atlanticgreen.com/nhth.htm

Hi David,  Back in the Day 1960 and onwards, you would find me most saturdays  gazing lustfully at Nortons  in  Streamlines, HL Daniels,Pride and Clarkes et al  ,And going to Earls Court shows . I could walk or cycle to 4 dealers.  The early 88/99 SS bikes were always seen in 2 tone colours and with splayed carbs.  Then the 650 SS appeared , The only time you saw a black and silver DD 88SS was at a Major show. Who would buy one when the 650 was there?. It was many years later when I saw a DD 88ss  in the flesh,and blagged a ride of it. I was very dissapointed ,not as powerfull as my own hopped up 88 DL !. I think you only bought the 88ss if thats all the dealer had ,or if you fancied production racing.  Properly set up the 88SS was a fantastic bike ,In my mind the very best of the featherbeds with a balance of virtues that was hard to match and reliable too. But for looks I still prefer the Green/white splayed carb model.

Many years ago I encountered an 88S with the early head, with me on a later downdraft head version. On a long straight road I couldn't keep up. So from a sample of one, it looked to me as if the head change didn't have a magical effect. On 40+ year old bikes we might of course have different cams, compression ratios, timing....he had original monoblocs and mine has 28mm Concentrics...I think others have said that Plumstead exaggerated the virtues of the change in port shapes?

For  many years I assumed the mythical 650DL   was fitted with the earlier head , in order to get the carb to enter the hole in the rear enclosure sidepanels.  Recently I spotted a 650DL (stripped of panels of course!)  for sale  and it was fitted with the type of manifold I have on our atlas that brings the carb almost horizontal. I knew without doubt they would not have afforded new tooling for revised pressings. Did anyone here buy it , the rarest of production dommies?. I should have.Would have, but am full up.

I stopped trusting the Norton Parts Books for the 650 models when PS217 was printed and the reference diagram on page 4 was a Model 99. 

Possibly answering one of Gary questions from his first posting. re. the changes mentioned by Bacon for the 1966 650 model to the Timing Side.  This was the year when the Timing Cases got a new oil feed junction block, larger oil-ways and oil drain holes in crankcases. Just before the lower mounting stud for the magneto was changed for a through bolt and later models got a distributor.

Picking up on 122/88 production. The Factory Records show a considerable number of these machines produced at the beginning of 1961 and recorded with 122 engines as Specials in racing trim. These being built alongside 650 models. Later, by March large batches can be found being produced alongside 99SS bikes. This time they are recorded as 122 S/Specials with every other bike having Siamese exhausts fitted. Production abruptly stops in June 1961 while huge numbers of Lightweight Twins get produced. When it resumes the bikes are recorded with 88 as the engine.

hello well the parts manuals make sense to me  but then I have the Norton Manxman 650 parts manual and PS214 manual   witch the models 88 sports specials   And model 99 sports Specials then share the same Parts as The Norton Manxman 650 but Not some of its special parts fitted only to the Norton Manxman 650s  And the Norton Dominator de-lux 650 had the same cylinder heads has the 650 sports models But going back to the Norton 88 sports and 99 sports models these two had the 1960 single carburettor type cylinder head with twin carburettor manifold fittings and had the same crankcases as the Manxman and its camshaft and push rods or valve train, But not the same cylinder heads has The Norton Manxman 650 Has these 88ss and 99ss motorcycles  were still using Up older parts  but most f these motorcycle where for the Home markets were  Has the export models got the new parts designs  and At this time period  Norton was well geared up for export machines   and any thing else like Home models  came last on there agender  Now as for de-lux 650 and Standard 650s these also where in big demand as export motorcycles witch most went to europe  and some Iron curtain  countries  witch buy now most will  have been made into cafe races as this was the big sence back then do not get me wrong there is nothing wrong with cafe racers if this is your thing  but to day it makes original Norton models even rarer  and then you have how many have ended up in incidents and been broke up for parts or  scrap  over the years  now all the best yours   anna j

I wonder how many 88/99SS had the 650 cases?  Maybe a few at the end of production ,they certainly did not need them ,unless some had the 6 speed pump?

Robert......the Factory records show the 99SS had all the 650 gear bar the SS Cylinder Head from March 1961 onwards.  The final batch of 99SS were fitted with SS heads but these were promptly removed for use on some 650 bikes. Probably 650SS bikes as these were in high demand at the end of 1961.  The 650, 88SS and even the standard 88 and 99 models had the bulged cases from 1961 onwards.

The first genuine factory 99SS was 14 -  96496 – (28/03/ 1961)  It was fitted with the early pre-1960 22707 cylinder head but had the SS camshaft, barrels and pushrods etc. Plus Ball-end levers.  The last 99SS is recorded as being 103392 which departed from the factory in August 1962 but was probably built and stored well before that as twin production after 122 - 98200 concentrated on all other models.

 122 - 96531 – was the first production 88SS (06/06/1961) It is recorded as fitted with the new 22707 SS cylinder head, a redesigned 500cc barrel and hollow-blown pushrods. Also a special crankshaft with stronger journals and K2FC magneto. It was kept at Bracebridge for testing to begin with before ending up with Garreau in France.

The 3 speed oil pump did not appear on the scene until 1963 but was initially fitted to the lightweight engines.

On your posting from yesterday Gary, I would say "follow your gut" and rebuild as your dream cafe racer.  If you don't have matching numbers, and don't want to invest in 100% originality (which you can't without finding the original crankcases), then just build the bike you want.  That's what I did with my 1960 99, where the engine and frame numbers were a few weeks out, but didn't match so I thought "what's the point in trying to build another spec Domi 99?"     

Hi Phill,   Seems strange that with so many 88/99's being fitted with bulge cases , I  have never manage to find a set  for my 99.  Been interested in fitting a 650 crank and rods for years. 

After Bracebridge closed, production of Nortons crashed to between just 3 and 4 thousand a year. The range up to 1963 included a huge bundle of lightweights, a small range of single models, standard and de luxe 88, 99 and 650 bikes plus the SS variations and also the Atlas was now being built. From the few records I have for 1962 on it does not look like more than a couple of hundred standard bikes were built before AMC took over and dropped them from the range.

Year Beginning  - Approx E/N 

          1960  -  87038

          1961  -  94500

          1962  -  101060

          1963  -  105000

          1964  -  108000

          1965  -  111650

I worked for a couple of Companies like AMC,  Take the one part of the business thats making money, Suck it dry, Lay off the staff who could do the job Burn the cash on  supporting a lame duck  and wonder why it all falls apart . Should have asked the tea boy which way to go.

Hello as you well know that my Norton as a stamp marked 18--95069 built  December 7th 1960 so this blows your number system out of the water so have a nice day yours Anna j 

Hello as you well know that my Norton as a stamp marked 18--95069 built  December 7th 1960 so this blows your number system out of the water so have a nice day yours Anna j 

My 99SS was first registered on 24th Aug 1961, is engine number 98046, has no bulge and no downdraught head. Has SS cam and siamese pipes.