Poor quality control

That's more than unfortunate. Keep hearing about these kinds of issues with one or two of the specialists out there and in two I know of, the customer was blamed for problems they could not have contributed to. They are replacing the cases and paying for rebore, pistons and regrind etc. aren't they? If not your friend needs to get legal help. I know there is a popular line of thought that says if we upset these suppliers they may not be around to supply our needs in the future but they also need to recognise their shortcomings, after all they are more than happy to take our cash. On the bearing issue the drive side is known for turning and I have the same problem in an old set of 850 cases. Of course the bearings must be dropped in hot (150c) cases and a drop or two of bearing fit is always a good idea. Hope it hasn't put him off Nortons!

I have lost count of the times on the rebuild I'm doing, having to fettle the new parts supplied by the suppliers!!!! they are supposed to be original or built to original spec , I've always bought or so I thought I was buying quality!!!!

This is what has annoyed me the most?? the lack of detailed info in the manuals is also not acceptable, but when you ask the so called experts on some guidance as to tolerances or fit etc and they come back with "wibble the hole out" this for the oil feed to rockers shaft in head ya have to wonder as to their competence??? I have been building/testing/developing very expensive prototype engines for well over 25yrs, some of the replies I've had to questions has made me cringe and my colleagues shakin heads with disbelief. One northern supplier has stopped taking calls when I question the quality of the component supplied!! so I stopped using them and go elsewhere and just accept that to fit it, will have to be fettled or make it myself, to which a lot has been just that.

I just wonder at what they have repaired/renovated and supplied to their customers!!!!!

It's been a very frustrating time and a learning curve quite unique but confident in knowing my bike is built to exacting standards of engineering, unlike Nortons original and if I ever do another ?I know all the little foibles to look out for, and have solutions, to most(just a question of time and money!!

Gripe over

Whydoes everyone seem so coy about naming names when complaining about quality and service problems. If you're confident you have a genuine complaint from a supplier, why not name them and protect the innocent ?

I bought an £80pair of Hi-Tec walking boots from the Lichfield branch of Yeomans Outdoors in May 2009. After 13 months, the rubber toe guard split letting in water and grit.Yeomans shop were dismissive "Sorry, out of our warranty". I considered they should last 4 - 5 years before wearing out.

Hi-Tec were the exact opposite "Sorry about that, Sir. Please accept this replacement pair with our compliments".

Guess which shop I won't be patronising again !

If you've got a reputation to maintain, you'll do everything to look after it ; if you don't care, ...................

In the UK consumer law states that goods must be fit for purpose, this is in addition to any warranty period given by the seller, based on the product and its use, this could be up to 6 years but you will have to have a good lawyer to enforce it. As it is, European law sets warranties must be for a minimum of 2 years so May 09 is within this, retailers quote 12 months for warranty but as soon as you mention European consumer law they suddenly rememberthe 2 years, worth a try as is a summons from a small claims court next to you but miles away from the seller, the travel expenses is normally enough to get their attention.

Unfortunately I've read "stories" about even the most well known classic bike spare suppliers selling seriously shoddy goods which are nowhere near the quality of the originals. As far as "The Sale of Goods Act" goes they seem to know little and care less about it - the most abused section of which is the "Distance Selling Regulations". I've been banned from buying off two sites on eBay because I pointed out their illegal conditions! OK, there will be those among you who will agree with them but John is right about the UK and EU laws (The DSRs are EU regs!). Most suppliers fudge the issue and try to sell "warranties" by telling you that the new item only has a one year warranty! That is total borrox! It's only a oneyear Manufacturer's written warranty - not necessarily compliant with the Sale of Goods Actand other Consumer rights!

Take a washing machine for instance - breaks after 18 months so the supplier says it's not liable? Oh yes it is!! Any County Court judge would rule that, presuming it has been used correctly, it should last much longer - all domestic "white goods" will be covered by case precedent for at least 5 years. Richard's boots would definitely be covered by normal consumer rights unless perhaps he'd climbed Everest!

The problem with classic bikes and cars is the verylimited supply of parts. Often made in countries where wages are extremely low and the materials are of similar low spec. The suppliers have been known to blame previous owners changing the original item for the lack of fit of something they've sold you!

They have you over a barrel - pun intended!

Previously wrote:

Unfortunately I've read "stories" about even the most well known classic bike spare suppliers selling seriously shoddy goods which are nowhere near the quality of the originals. As far as "The Sale of Goods Act" goes they seem to know little and care less about it - the most abused section of which is the "Distance Selling Regulations". I've been banned from buying off two sites on eBay because I pointed out their illegal conditions! OK, there will be those among you who will agree with them but John is right about the UK and EU laws (The DSRs are EU regs!). Most suppliers fudge the issue and try to sell "warranties" by telling you that the new item only has a one year warranty! That is total borrox! It's only a oneyear Manufacturer's written warranty - not necessarily compliant with the Sale of Goods Actand other Consumer rights!

Take a washing machine for instance - breaks after 18 months so the supplier says it's not liable? Oh yes it is!! Any County Court judge would rule that, presuming it has been used correctly, it should last much longer - all domestic "white goods" will be covered by case precedent for at least 5 years. Richard's boots would definitely be covered by normal consumer rights unless perhaps he'd climbed Everest!

The problem with classic bikes and cars is the verylimited supply of parts. Often made in countries where wages are extremely low and the materials are of similar low spec. The suppliers have been known to blame previous owners changing the original item for the lack of fit of something they've sold you!

They have you over a barrel - pun intended!

Hi Lionel - Yes you're right and I would like to hear more on shoddy parts - It's not just Norton's, Its across all the classic motorcycle marques. The Norton suppliers will not tell you where these parts are made and I think its time to be honest with their customers - after all we pay enough for them. It needs looking into much more, before someone is killed riding a Norton with substandard parts that have let go, like a wheel spindle or brake shoes that have failed suddenly ,yes its getting worrying so be careful out there! Yours Anna J Dixon

I am totally perplexed by members reticence to name and shame so called specialists, supplying spares which are quite obviously not up to the job.

I take the view that their customer base is so low in volume, that we the customer have the whip hand ! They should consider themselves fortunate and value our custom !

I dont have theengineering experience or wisdom about such complex matters as those discussed above and rely on these "specialists" to guide and advise, not to scam me !

Perhaps if members were to recommend "specialists" that were reputeable, we would be able to deal with those and by a process of elimination figure out which ones to give a wide berth !

I am sure if these "specialists" knew we "customers" were getting proactive, they would soon up their game !

Paul

Ok so lets start here.

I have been a commando owner for 30yrs and have spent thousands on my bikes. I have had several engine rebuilds done, and must say that most of the failures I have had have been my own doing. Thats how you learn.

I have also used a number of different suppliers over the years from RGM to Fair Spares. I now buy any consumables, like tyres, plugs, filters etc from motor stockists, but all my engine and frame parts come from one place. The parts are always in Norton packing, and if not original they will be sold as 'alternative' parts, and 99% of the time wil arrive within 24hrs. The staff are friendly and not adverse to answering dumb questions and will say if parts are out of stock, or if there is a patern copy available. I always keep receipts logged to each bike, so i know what I fitted and when. My last request to this company was for parts to be sent to Belgium on the hurry up, and I was bowled over by the response and offer of help. They even gave me details of the Belgium NOC so i could source parts there, which I acheived the same day !

This is a 5* dealer and I will be mortified when they retire.

Thank you Mick and Angela Hemmings.

Due to my location, for precise and well advised engine work I use Norman White, not cheap, but you pay for experience.

As always, there are two sides of the coin. Owners as well as incompetent "specialists" tend to blame the quality of the spare part when they have made a mistake. I have to agree with Richard Negus. If an owner complains about bad quality but declines to name names the suspicion is he is not really sure the part was the problem. This may apply to the crankcase/main bearing problem above. I have seen a local "specialist" with the reputation of a mechanical god hammer valve guides out of a stone-cold cylinder head, so the other "specialist" may have put the bearings in with a hammer instead of shrinking them in. A friend who repairs Nortons for a living has had five crankcases in recent months off me and used them in rebuilds without problems. Being a master toolmaker by trade he is normally the first to tell me about dimensional variances should they occur.

That said, there is a lot of substandart stuff out there, and mentioning conrod bolts I recently aquired a sample that a British wholesaler sells to dealers at less than Andover Norton pays for unmachined conrod bolt forgings. The reason becomes apparent when you look at it- it is no forging to start with, and even the dimensions are wrong. Similarly one can buy fork parts, engine parts, gearbox parts etc. from the same source that bear no resemblance in material and often dimensions to the originals. These parts must sell to the dealers, otherwise the wholesaler was either long out of business or would have stopped offering these pirate parts for Nortons years ago.

Our club spares scheme does not have an account with Andover Norton, even though it was offered one, but has one with this wholesaler, so you can guess where the "Commando" parts come from you buy from the club. In case of difficulties with parts from this and other sources please don't blame "Norton" spare parts but "Pirate" spare parts. I know several "Norton Specialists" around the globe where I personally wouldn't want to buy parts, knowing full well these are either of Indian or Chinese origin, or even made on the premises, in all cases without the benefit of factory drawings or tooling. Discounters whose main argument is price live in the same world as everybody else and have the same overheads. What they give away in price they have to save in their purchasing, so your guess is as good as mine how they do it.

Joe Seifert

Previously wrote:

Whydoes everyone seem so coy about naming names when complaining about quality and service problems. If you're confident you have a genuine complaint from a supplier, why not name them and protect the innocent ?

I bought an £80pair of Hi-Tec walking boots from the Lichfield branch of Yeomans Outdoors in May 2009. After 13 months, the rubber toe guard split letting in water and grit.Yeomans shop were dismissive "Sorry, out of our warranty". I considered they should last 4 - 5 years before wearing out.

Hi-Tec were the exact opposite "Sorry about that, Sir. Please accept this replacement pair with our compliments".

Guess which shop I won't be patronising again !

If you've got a reputation to maintain, you'll do everything to look after it ; if you don't care, ...................

Alright Richard,

With reference to why people don't name dealers who have provided less than satisfactory service, it's probably to do with the laws concerning libel, i.e publishing a statement that damages a persons reputation. If the author cannot prove the statement to be true, then it is libellous.

For example, I have had the misfortune of having to return faulty workmanship on a Commando crankshaft, along with faulty parts,to a self proclaimed Norton specialist, only to be subjected to verbal abuse by the dealer, who loudly told me that I knew f*** all about motorbikes, f*** all about Norton's and f*** all about engineering, whilst he appeared to be going through an adult tantrum. Sound like anyone you know? Of course, at the time there were no independent witnesses to validate my claim, therefore, I cannot legally name the dealer. The dealer, however, in this instance, did refundme in full, and I concluded he was only annoyed because he knew I was right, and that he would have to part with some of his precious fortune.

When I do have adequate proof of unsatisfactory customer service, I will gladly let everybody know the dealers details, and the reasonfor having to claim for damages.

A factor in certain dealers behaviour, is they think they can get away with providing inferior parts and services, because the majority of customers do not fully exercise their rights when they have a legitimate complaint. It would seem to be too much trouble to get their money back. The result is every body loses apart from thearsehole whosupllied the parts/service in the first place.

Onebit of advice is to pay by credit card, then if you have a problem the credit company should 'fight your case'. I'm doing this at the moment and I will keep you informed of the result, if I can.

One good bit of news, the bike should be back on the road very soon, as the cylinder block is being relined atChesman Motorsport, Coventry.

See you at the Manx! Safe riding, Simon.

Previously wrote:

I am totally perplexed by members reticence to name and shame so called specialists, supplying spares which are quite obviously not up to the job.

I take the view that their customer base is so low in volume, that we the customer have the whip hand ! They should consider themselves fortunate and value our custom !

I dont have theengineering experience or wisdom about such complex matters as those discussed above and rely on these "specialists" to guide and advise, not to scam me !

Perhaps if members were to recommend "specialists" that were reputeable, we would be able to deal with those and by a process of elimination figure out which ones to give a wide berth !

I am sure if these "specialists" knew we "customers" were getting proactive, they would soon up their game !

Paul

Hi Paul,

In reply to part of your message, see my reply to Richard Negus' comment. The problem with recommendations is what one person sees asgood service is different to anothers. E.g I have seen letters in Roadholder praising the very dealer Iam having problems with, in regards to faulty components/workmanship. You would have thought that thesun shines out of his fat arse from their comments, yet I would be lying if I where to agree with them.

I think the only answer is to use the dealers you know to offer good service, and sue for damages the ones that have left youdissatisfied.

Cheers, Simon.

I`ve had a metal valve stem cap split ,alerted by a tinkling sound emitting from the rockers, I`ve had the mushroom type tappet adjuster snap when tightening the lock nut(that`s `cause they`re hollow and don`t have the strength of the original type). As you can imagine these occurances were highly traumatic.

I recently fitted a new centre stand that took an hour to file the bolt holes and in the past fitted leaky new petrol taps that don`t switch off properly. RGM has given good service on less critical items, e.g. tyres, alternator, isolastic conversion, front brake master cylinder re-sleeve etc and some good technical advice but I`ve learned a bit of mechanical knowhow through my own ventures into the unknown and documented themas referencefor the next time...for instance

Tip . If you`re assembling the rear wheel hub bearings after having had the sprocket replaced make sure the bearing circlip is really firmly pressed home in its groove, mine kept creeping back out and causing the brake shoes to bind.

Chris Moorhouse

Hi David. Sorry to hear of all the rouble you have had.

Why don't you name thesesuppliers and specialists? Name them and shame them, I would.

You have nothing to fear if what you say is accurate and true.

This is THE only way to raise standards and in the meantime it will help the rest of us so we can avoid them.

Regards.

Les H