Planning to buy a Navigator

Previously ulrich_hoffmann wrote:

Hello!

My name is Ulrich Hoffmann, I am a brand new member of the NOC ( actually joined 15 minutes ago..)

I live in Ravensburg, Germany and I have a chance to buy a 1960 or so Navigator. The prevoius owner is deceased an the bike is not complete. He gave away the cylinders and heads for reconditioning and his family does not know to whom. So I guess I have to look for new parts. I am not very familiar with this model. It is pretty rare over here.

My other bike is a 1970 Commando "S", which I restored in the last two years.

Where do I get parts for the bike? I guess also missing is the alternator stator, pushrods.

If there is little chance to get parts I will step back from the purchase.

Cheers

Uli Hoffmann

The Spares team and lightweight twins officer will help you, details in Roadholder. You should have no problem. Might be worth an article telling the best of us how you get on. Good Luck!

Tony Biebuyck

Hi Ulrich and welcome to the club. Navigator parts do come up from time to time, but I think I have to admit to buying the last barrels from the clubs spares! If you look in the NOC shop under lightweights you will see that many parts are available, incl pistons. Not sure about push rods you'll need to have a look. Otherwise it's the Internet or perhaps subscribe to Old Bike Mart and phone around.

You can fit a new stator to the bike and they are easy to obtain. I have some spare heads but think they may all be Jubilee, I'll have to check.

If if its cheap I'd buy it and start looking for bits, I hate to see a bike lost, but they don't command high prices like your commando, the lightweights were never as popular as their bigger brothers!

Dan

I'm pretty sure the heads are different, different part numbers anyway. Rocker covers are the same, and think I have one of those if you can't find one locally.

I'm getting ready for a day's racing tomorrow but will try and have a look when I get back, Yes push rods are different. Bits aren't that hard to come by, Norvil and Russel motors might be worth a call, prob easier to find the right bits, that try and modify something else. Send Andy the lightweight expert an email, contact details can be found from the home page, he might even know someone with some spare. I recently bought about 50kg of assorted jubilee spares for £50 so they are still out there!

contact details here: http://www.nortonownersclub.org/membership/contacts/technical-contacts

more info here:http://www.nortonownersclub.org/noc-chat/technical3-light-twins-forum/76705812

Hello Ulrich, i thought i had the only Navigator in Germany (1961 STD), i have no problems with spares thanks to the Club and the Navigator is just the job for riding around Bielefeld. I would strongly recommend Pazon Electonic Ignition as the standard points set up, on my first Navigator bought new in 1961( could not aford a Dominator on apprentice wages ) the points were always a problem, on Sundays i would would ride to Hunstanton on the East coast and before i could ride home i would be on my hands and knees setting up the points. Wishing you all the best and safe riding.

Cheers Peter kley.

Previously Ulrich Hoffmann wrote:

Maybe the numbers stamped on the heads

X 20715 LH, X 20717 RH are in the 1964 parts list?

Or are these only casting numbers?

Anyone has a copy to look at for me?

I only have the 1960 list .

The frame number is R17 969XX

So the frame is from a Jubilee?

Even more mysteries...

Hi Ulrich,

I am at present attempting to restore a 1962 Navigator. The numbers on the heads are 22939 LH and 22941 RH.

Regards, David.

What forks does the bike have? There's a navigator head on eBay at the moment.

Dan

Yes it's here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/norton-navigator-jubilee-cylinder-head-/322146755363?hash=item4b01716323:g:NAYAAOSwbYZXXBsn assuming it's correct of course!

The jubilee has a slightly different frame angle to the navigator, this is because the fork offset is different. It is created by the top rails bolting in a slightly diifferent position on the front member. Ideally you would want the navigator front frame member to maintain the handling. It's easy to check as the Navigator has different steering stops - I know this because my jubilee has roadholder forks!

Is the engine number definitely navigator?

PI'll Bevin the garage later and will take some pics of navigator and jubilee heads

Previously Dan Field wrote:

Yes it's here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/norton-navigator-jubilee-cylinder-head-/322146755363?hash=item4b01716323:g:NAYAAOSwbYZXXBsn assuming it's correct of course!

The jubilee has a slightly different frame angle to the navigator, this is because the fork offset is different. It is created by the top rails bolting in a slightly diifferent position on the front member. Ideally you would want the navigator front frame member to maintain the handling. It's easy to check as the Navigator has different steering stops - I know this because my jubilee has roadholder forks!

Is the engine number definitely navigator?

PI'll Bevin the garage later and will take some pics of navigator and jubilee heads

Hi Dan,

Are you sure it's a Navigator head? The dimension given is 60mm which is the size for the Jubilee. The Navigatorhas a63mm bore.

David.

Not sure as I said above I was relying on the sellers description. I'll look at the casting numbers on mine.

The numbers cast into the cylinder heads uniquely identify the finished item, as the 250 and 350 heads use different castings. The stud positions are the same as you say, but the inlet tracts differ in bore, and the combustion chambers differ in both base diameter and volume. The bore of the inlet manifold was also increased, along with the carburetter size (from 15/16â to 1 1/8â if memory serves).

Jubilee heads are marked 20715, 20717 whilst Navigator heads are marked 22939, 22941. This applies to all years. The only changes with time are a reduction in compression ratio (from 9:1 to 8.5:1 as I recall, possibly coinciding with the change from a spigotted joint (cylinder liner protruding above the barrel face into a recess in the heads) to a simple flat joint. [NB Your Jubilee heads are of the earlier type.]

Your crankcases should be prefixed 19/ for a Navigator engine â? and it clearly is so, as I can see the shopâs number (N20xy) on the top. This tells me that it was built before May 1963 at the Norton works in Bracebridge Street, Birmingham. [Production was later transferred to the AMC (AJS / Matchless) works at Plumstead Road, Woolwich.] The detail of the gearbox filler also confirms this. [The number indicates that it was Navigator engine No. 20xy off the production line â? and, from memory, that dates it to c. 1962.]

Your frame loops are clearly from a Jubilee as you say (17/ prefix) but they are interchangeable. The bit that differs is the front member (âdown-tubeâ) â the head steady differs both in detail and in height. Yours is clearly the right one, so all is well. I assume therefore that your machine has the correct âRoadholderâ fork assembly rather than the more basic item fitted to the 250 Jubilee.

Navigator barrels are cast in one piece (and of 63mm bore), whilst the Jubilee uses separate barrels (60mm bore). Both studs and pushrods differ in length.

The stroke is also different! [44mm for 250, 56mm for 350) The Jubilee crankshaft is made from nodular cast iron, whilst the Navigator component is forged from EN16 steel. Big end and main bearings are the same for both.

NB Note that 500/600 Dominator main bearings, though of the same primary dimensions CAN NOT be used without modification! The crankshaft has a gentler blend radius than a Domi crank â?

As a guide to part numbers, the Jubilee came first, and the Navigator followed. Jubilee parts (and those common to both models) commence 20, whilst unique-to-Navigator parts start with 22.

This is a Navigator head : U.K. eBay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/R-H-NORTON-JUBILEE-NAVIGATOR-CYLINDER-HEAD-WITH-VALVES-ETC-/322154069315?hash=item4b01e0fd43:g:8mkAAOSwjXRXYvix

dan

Its likely that the threads are cycle 26tpi for nuts and bolts and whitworth where into ally, possibly some bsf and BA on electrical small stuff.

Check the spare section on this website, they have most of the nuts and bolts you'll need plus a load of other stuff.

Dan

Hi Ulrich

I am coming over to Germany next month staying in the Munster Oertz area between Hamburg and Hanover, i have an original hand book and parts list for a navigator/jubilee which i can bring over if you want to take a copy. Alan

Hi Ulrich,

I have the the follwing parts list as PDF: 1961/62 and 1964.

If you send your email address I'll send it to you by email

Unfortunately I don't know how to send a PM with attachments.

Fritz

3/8" x 26TPI (CEI or British Cycle Thread)

On bikes before engine no 106838, you need 7x E3224 nut and 1x 21166 Special nut for the stand 'C' anchor

On bikes 106838-on, you need 6x E3224 nut and 2x 24621 nut for the lower gearbox mount & 'C' anchor

24621 is in stock at NOC shop

E3224 is not in stock

21166 is in stock at NOC shop