Oil bath primary chain

Apart from not being too difficult to get the chain case oil tight ( this has been discussed previously), I can see no reason not to use a, good quality, spray on chain lube. After all few now use the engine breather to lubricate the rear chain ( + back wheel & rear mudguard!).

Apart from not being too difficult to get the chain case oil tight ( this has been discussed previously), I can see no reason not to use a, good quality, spray on chain lube. After all few now use the engine breather to lubricate the rear chain ( + back wheel & rear mudguard!).

yours anna j

Good advice Anna, and if everything is perfect there isn't any need for sealent. The main trick is not to over tighten the centre nut as this will cause distortion and also squash the rubber band. Make sure the band is on the correct way round, note the oil seal.

Finally, use SAE 20 mineral oil (Nothing synthetic at all) but if you can't get it I have found SAE 30 works OK.

For the short term, running dry but spraying the chain is OK, however, those rollers in the clutch appreciate a bit of lubricationtoo if you want them to last.

I would strongly suggest Tim,to do a forum search about this subject to see the complete picture, as there are numerous views and ideas that owners use which apparently work for their individual scenarios.

I am a bit miffed Anna as to how filling the case with the drain plug OUT is going to achieve anything! Surely the plug needs to be IN to stop the oil from coming out.After all, it is a drain plug. Adding to this, I have found that adding only 100ml of auto trans oil is enough to keep the chain alive and the clutch plates relatively free from dragging.

Like Anna, I advocate making the primary chaincase oiltight and using a thin oil - in my case agricultural tractor universal 15W-30. No anti friction additives so ideal for Norton clutches. However, if you insist on a bodge, rather than squirting the chain with chainlube, use self-levelling (sometimes called semi-fluid) grease. Available mail order from Morris Lubricants. Lubes the chain and doesn't sneak out of the chaincase. Just don't put too much in. It's also a jolly good lubricant for rear chains. Funnily enough, the Norton Maintenance Manual recommends Esso fluid grease for rear chains, so I am not the first to use it.

I was told many years ago that running dry could damage the alternator windings through overheating. I don't know if this is really so.

Yes it is...

Regarding the alternator, that is interesting. So, how is that not a problem with belt drives?

Well the idea behide leveeing the drain plug out when your filling with oil if you read my thread right is so well the oil then is running out of the drain plug you have enough oil in the chaincase at that point And this is in the Norton Maintenance manual if you care to read it, And its so you do not over filled the chaincase, And as for Auto transmission fluid has additives that attack the clutch center rubbers in time , And Lucas primary chaincase oil is formulated so its lubricates the rollers at the back of the clutch are lubricated and helps to keep them cool , and its the same with the primary chain, and all it also keeps it running Quiet and its dose not let the clutch slip, like SAE 20 or 30 or 10/30 oils do or the ATF oils , before having a go at me try the product out first, and you may find that Lucas oils is good stuff, Yours Anna J

...it is a level plug so Anna is right. There is no drain plug...I have auto transmission fluid in my single and its fine in the road but sticks when parked for a few days and I have to free the clutch before starting the engine. So shortly I am going back to 'propet' oil. Maybe the clutch inserts are different?

well this maybe due to the oil attacking the center rubbers , so if you use the right oil like Lucas Primary Chaincase oil you find it will not stick any more

Just to add another idea. I've used a foam weather proofing strip on my primary chain case. It's single sided adhesive so you stick it to the inner case, smear some grease on it, slide the outer on and it's excellent. Do a quick search and you'll find more info on the stuff as it has been discussed before.

I tried running it dry and found the clutch easily overheated and dragged. Nearly ended up under a lorry when I pulled the clutch leaver in and nothing happened after lots of stop start traffic. Got home and sealed the case and put oil in it. Never had the problem since. It'll also improve chain life.

Regarding the alternator, that is interesting. So, how is that not a problem with belt drives?

Just going by what happened to me running a dry primary chain. Fast Motorway use and the chain shed most of its rollers and the alternator stator died. The chain was hot enough for oil squirted onto it to bubble. Why not with belt primary drives? Don't know.

Anna, if you had read my post, instead of jumping in and calling it rubbish, you would have seen that I said it is not too difficult to get an oil-tight seal. As to using chain lubricant, instead of oil, much depends on how the bike is used. As has been pointed out, belt drives run dry, without any apparent problems with alternator, or clutch. Also if you want to be "picky", it is a level, not a drain plug to which you keep referring.

Previously Gordon Johnston wrote:

Regarding the alternator, that is interesting. So, how is that not a problem with belt drives?

Just going by what happened to me running a dry primary chain. Fast Motorway use and the chain shed most of its rollers and the alternator stator died. The chain was hot enough for oil squirted onto it to bubble. Why not with belt primary drives? Don't know.

I see. It read as though the alternator itself overheated, but by the sound of it, the disintegrating rollers destroyed it. I guess it would! That would not be an issue with belt drive.

To add my two pennuth, I use SAE30 classic oil in the chaincase and have no problems with clutch slip.

OK, this is what threw me off,.....

.. David,......... Anna talked about a DRAIN PLUG. (and still is!) My pressedsteel chain case outerhas a drain plug, definatelly not a level plug, the parts book calls it a 'drain plug'. It's at the very lower edge of the case, angled downwards. When Iinject only 100 ml of oil in (only about 1/3 recommended according to my Norton user manual) and remove the plug, most of the oildrains back out!So when I see the word 'drain', thats what I refer to.So, I am assuming that somewhere 'Mr. Norton' decided to movethis pluga little higherso as to use it as a level plug, the same idea used in the laydown g/box (and probably others). ThisAnna, is now what I realise you refer to.I don't have a 'go'at anyone, I only call/questionit as I see it, unlike what I've unfortunatelly seen from other apparently unsettledposters on some English forums.

Re ATF fluid; automatic transmissions are full of clutches, so I don't think that it would attribute to clutch slip, only a lack of spring tension on the pressure plate! It certainly doesn't in my Norton clutch with after market plates, just the opposite...I also use straight SAE20 in two other Britbikes (one is rated at 47H.P.)and straight SAE50 in another, and my Japper uses 20/50, all definatelly with no hint of slip! And, if the primaryoil is also used to cool the alternator windings, how come my fully encapsulated (eg, devoid of any oil) stator, pumping out enough current to power a 60W Q.H. globe plus instrument and tail light lamps plus Boyer ignition, doesn't cook up? I would suggest that amalfunctioning voltage regulator/rectifier or batterywould possibly cause the coils to over heat.

Some industrial chains have split rollers, and they soon fail with a bit ofspeed, and the roller halvesattach themselves to the alternator rotor, shredding the coils.

As I see it

Paul

Hi Paul

My ES2 has a level plug rather than a drain plug and if I remember rightly its the same year as yours, 1951? Could it be a mod that someone has made in the past?

I used to use ATF in my Royal Enfield but always had clutch slip. Over about6 months when I was looking for the problem I replaced the entire clutch, but it still sliped! I cleaned it all off and ran it without the oil and no slip. But its not very kind to the chain so I am going to try another oilwe use in the Henderson that is designed for combined engine clutch and gearbox so should be good in the clutch, I think its Castrol GP4T 20/50 but I'll check the bottle when I go out there later if people are interested.

The rest of the British bikes have ATF in them and work fine.

Could the overheating alternators be due the the clutch and chain getting hot, and giving the location of the stator right next to it, and no airflow the windings are getting hot? Rather than the coils generating heat that needs to be diccipated? If they are generating enough heat of their own to cause problems something in the wiring is seriously wrong!

Andy

Several members have commented on dry chains overheating, of course they will, but not if they are sprayed regularly, with a good quality chain lubricant. Just a thought, but, chainsaw oil might be just as good.

OK Andy, yes my bike is '51, but I know it's not completely original, as the engine has been changed and probably a few things along with it. The outer primary cover appears unmolested, and in good shape. I have justnow removed the drain plug and after a little bit of the small amount of oil (100ml)I had in it drained, I had a peek inside and noted the very bottom run of the chain was just visible beinglevel with the very top of plug hole, making it above the oil level left after the plug was removed.I am now assuming what I have is perhaps an earlier outer case?....I have never had reason to suspect it wasn't original in the 21 years I've had this one. I will have to investigate further.

Paul.

Hi Paul, your chain case may well be correct. If the chain is almost at oil level when stationary (and the engine stopped), it will almost certainly skim the oil when running. There is bound to be a little "whip" in the chain, and the oil will have waves, due to braking & acceleration. If there have been no problems, in 21 years, why worry?

I've only had my ES2 about a year and I know nothing of its history other than it's been off the road since 1970. So it could be just as likely that I have an earlier/later case. But so far it's not caused a problem, so as john says; why worry.

Andy

OK, this is what threw me off,.....

.. David,......... Anna talked about a DRAIN PLUG. (and still is!) My pressedsteel chain case outerhas a drain plug, definitely not a level plug, the parts book calls it a 'drain plug'. It's at the very lower edge of the case, angled downwards. When Iinject only 100 ml of oil in (only about 1/3 recommended according to my Norton user manual) and remove the plug, most of the oildrains back out!So when I see the word 'drain', thats what I refer to.So, I am assuming that somewhere 'Mr. Norton' decided to movethis pluga little higherso as to use it as a level plug, the same idea used in the lay-down g/box (and probably others). ThisAnna, is now what I realize you refer to.I don't have a 'go'at anyone, I only call/questionit as I see it, unlike what I've unfortunately seen from other apparently unsettledposters on some English forums.

Re ATF fluid; automatic transmissions are full of clutches, so I don't think that it would attribute to clutch slip, only a lack of spring tension on the pressure plate! It certainly doesn't in my Norton clutch with after market plates, just the opposite...I also use straight SAE20 in two other Britbikes (one is rated at 47H.P.)and straight SAE50 in another, and my Japper uses 20/50, all definitely with no hint of slip! And, if the primaryoil is also used to cool the alternator windings, how come my fully encapsulated (eg, devoid of any oil) stator, pumping out enough current to power a 60W Q.H. globe plus instrument and tail light lamps plus Boyer ignition, doesn't cook up? I would suggest that amalfunctioning voltage regulator/rectifier or batterywould possibly cause the coils to over heat.

Some industrial chains have split rollers, and they soon fail with a bit ofspeed, and the roller halvesattach themselves to the alternator rotor, shredding the coils.

As I see it

Paul

Well I have only owned and ridden Norton motorcycles for the last 40 years and this is what I found out by trial and error, there is no better experience, to find out your self, so its up to you owners to make your own mistakes and learn by them as countless engineers in the past 200 years have done, So I write from experience too try and save other owner some hard work but its up too them who takes notice of what others have done and try it out and found it works, So in the end witch way you go makes no difference too me, Yours Anna J

If yours isn't sealing properly it's worth checking that the outer chaincase isn't contacting the sidestand bracket. I'd fitted an reproduction one from Norvil and it's quite chunky and the case came into contact with it. One other annoying thing I keep seeing isthe term "Bodging" Bodging is a highly skilled woodland art using "green" timberfor theproduction of furniture. I think the term has been confused with "Botching"

I understand the correct term to use in place of bodging / botching is temporary repair. However, some of these can be anything but temporary!

Bodging? Botching? Nah - it's lateral thinking.

https://www.bodgers.org.uk/

You'll not find many bodgers actuallybotch.

Anyway, back to the thread topic,it can be done. I think perhaps I'd read too much about not being able to seal the primary drive chaincase that I believed you couldn't. Mine didn't seal properly due to the outer cover touching the sidestand bracket and holding it off, now that's sorted it does seal.

Bodge/botch - interesting bit of semantics. For what it's worth, I doenjoy green wood turning (bodging) but hate botches. However, the term bodge is commonly used to mean a temporary fix - which may be quite elegant. So English being a constantly evolving language I think the term bodge is generally accepted to include temporary fixes as well as working unseasoned wood. Does making a temporary oil filler cap from a bit of wood cut from a roadside tree count? I would certainly think so. I defend my temporary use of self levelling grease in the primary chaincase as a bodge. Were I to force a wrong threaded nut onto a stud that would most certainly be a botch - the sort of thing I have so often encountered working on bikes. Phew!

I must admit I've used, or rather misused, the word bodge myself.

I must admit I've used, or rather misused, the word bodge myself.

now were of topic

I bow to the expert in these matters!