Norton ES2 external oil filter

Previously wrote:

Some time ago I purchased an external oil filter with the intention of fitting it on my 1950 Norton ES2. Has anyone fitted one of these and do they cause any problems.

Thanks Keith.

Hello!

I have just dismounted the external oilfilteron my 19S.

Tohigh oilcunsumption

It was connected to the returnpipe before the pipe to the rockerbox

regards

GÃ?ran S

Previously wrote:

Previously wrote:

Some time ago I purchased an external oil filter with the intention of fitting it on my 1950 Norton ES2. Has anyone fitted one of these and do they cause any problems.

Thanks Keith.

Hello!

I have just dismounted the external oilfilteron my 19S.

Tohigh oilcunsumption

It was connected to the returnpipe before the pipe to the rockerbox

regards

GÃ?ran S

Hi Keith. Just my opinion, but I doubt if an external cartridge oil filter would have that great a benefit with an engine that has a roller bearing big-end. However, engines thathave plain bearingsfor their big ends such as the twins will significantly benefit from the addition of a better oil filter.

Rollers are extremely hard and due to their designcan roll over small particles of debrisandtherefore cope very well with slight oil contamination whereas the plain bearing has very tight clearances and utilise a skidding action or "hydro planing" type of action to work. The skidding action necessitates that the oil must be absolutely free of dirt of any kind. The soft bearing shells can absorb some contaminants,but general any dirt in the oil will just scour away the shell or journals.

The ES2 engine does of course have plain bushes in the cam shaft and rocker bearings and these will get some benefit from cleaner oil but their action is a relative slow speed reciprocating one and is not so effected by a scouring high surface speed action likethat in plainbig end bearings.

I guess your bike won't have an air filter? Much of the bore wear will be a result of drawing air containing massive amounts of abrasive particles into the bore and cleaner oil, although beneficial; will be outweighed by this wear component.

Most oil contaminants are either from the bore wear and carbon and combustion acids.The use of sump plugs and drain plugs fitted with high power magnets will help keep in check the ferrous particles whereas some recent studies have suggested carbon contamination can actually reduce wear by acting as a lubricating agent much like graphite. The acid products are neutralised mostly by oil additives but they only last so long and new oil is the only remedy. Just to add at this point that oil is designed to run hot at around 80 degrees for the best flow rate, least pumping loadand its anti sludging abilitiesetc. Using a bike in very cold weather can mean the oil is running far too coldly. A thermometer can be used to measure it and a goal of 70-80C should be aimed at. You can achieve this by reducing the total amount of oil in the oil tank so it cycles through the engine at a higher rate. With regular low mileage oil changes the oil will not suffer, in fact you will gain in everything. Better fuel consumption, more power,less initial oil cost and less wear. Also see the last bit of thispost* as regards high oil flow to the head.

The best way to reduce wear in your engine is to therefore fit an air filter (carb jetting will have to be modified) Fit magnetic drain plugs and change the oil very regularly, possibly every 1000 miles (don't bother with synthetics as they will get contaminated just as quickly and will not stopany wear due to contamination)

Goran says the back pressure also diverts much more oil to the cylinder head which is why he experiences a higher oil burn due to over oiling the inlet valve guide which sucks oil down into the combustion chamber.It might be possible to fit an oil seal to the inlet valve guide toreduce this effect though. An enginemight run a touch coolerwith this increase of oil flow to the head, but the reduction in running temperature will only amount to a few degrees. *Havingsaid that, the oil will warm up much more quickly and reach a good high running temperature of hopefully around 80 degrees C which will be beneficial to the oil and engine.

Regards.

Les H

Previously wrote:

Hi Keith. Just my opinion, but I doubt if an external cartridge oil filter would have that great a benefit with an engine that has a roller bearing big-end. However, engines thathave plain bearingsfor their big ends such as the twins will significantly benefit from the addition of a better oil filter.

Rollers are extremely hard and due to their designcan roll over small particles of debrisandtherefore cope very well with slight oil contamination whereas the plain bearing has very tight clearances and utilise a skidding action or "hydro planing" type of action to work. The skidding action necessitates that the oil must be absolutely free of dirt of any kind. The soft bearing shells can absorb some contaminants,but general any dirt in the oil will just scour away the shell or journals.

The ES2 engine does of course have plain bushes in the cam shaft and rocker bearings and these will get some benefit from cleaner oil but their action is a relative slow speed reciprocating one and is not so effected by a scouring high surface speed action likethat in plainbig end bearings.

I guess your bike won't have an air filter? Much of the bore wear will be a result of drawing air containing massive amounts of abrasive particles into the bore and cleaner oil, although beneficial; will be outweighed by this wear component.

Most oil contaminants are either from the bore wear and carbon and combustion acids.The use of sump plugs and drain plugs fitted with high power magnets will help keep in check the ferrous particles whereas some recent studies have suggested carbon contamination can actually reduce wear by acting as a lubricating agent much like graphite. The acid products are neutralised mostly by oil additives but they only last so long and new oil is the only remedy. Just to add at this point that oil is designed to run hot at around 80 degrees for the best flow rate, least pumping loadand its anti sludging abilitiesetc. Using a bike in very cold weather can mean the oil is running far too coldly. A thermometer can be used to measure it and a goal of 70-80C should be aimed at. You can achieve this by reducing the total amount of oil in the oil tank so it cycles through the engine at a higher rate. With regular low mileage oil changes the oil will not suffer, in fact you will gain in everything. Better fuel consumption, more power,less initial oil cost and less wear. Also see the last bit of thispost* as regards high oil flow to the head.

The best way to reduce wear in your engine is to therefore fit an air filter (carb jetting will have to be modified) Fit magnetic drain plugs and change the oil very regularly, possibly every 1000 miles (don't bother with synthetics as they will get contaminated just as quickly and will not stopany wear due to contamination)

Goran says the back pressure also diverts much more oil to the cylinder head which is why he experiences a higher oil burn due to over oiling the inlet valve guide which sucks oil down into the combustion chamber.It might be possible to fit an oil seal to the inlet valve guide toreduce this effect though. An enginemight run a touch coolerwith this increase of oil flow to the head, but the reduction in running temperature will only amount to a few degrees. *Havingsaid that, the oil will warm up much more quickly and reach a good high running temperature of hopefully around 80 degrees C which will be beneficial to the oil and engine.

Regards.

Les H

PS, Just to say, I described camshaft action as reciprocating, but I was referring to cam followerand rocker action and not the actual revolving cams. However, I think the evidence is that cam shaft bushes on the ES2 last very well without resorting to extra oil filtration. Les

Hello All,

For some reason my original comments on Keith and Goran's posting seems to have vanished, my question/comment was to the effect that I had trouble understanding how a standard filter set up as fitted to the commando model would cause the 19s of Goran's to consume oil at such a rate that he felt compelled to remove it, I speculated that perhaps the slightly greater back pressure would tend to flood the valve guides. Les is very correct in his remarks about rolling element bearings requiring only a modest amount of oil to work properly, in fact, too much oil can cause overheating due to churning friction to the point that the bearing can fail by welding itself together! His remarks about oil temperature are spot on, I remember some twenty years ago, noting a brownish foam in the oil tank of my Yamaha SR 500 during the winter, I was using 20W50 oil, switching to 10W40 increased the rate of oil flow and the problem was solved.

My own Norton 19s is fitted with an air filter and I am in the process of fitting a commando oil filter inside the tool box, I figure that cleaning the oil as well as the air will keep the "Old Man" on the road a good while longer, it certainly can't hurt.

Regards,

Albert.

Hello again!

I think that the resistance in the return pipe is important for both the amount of oil to the rocker box (after 1948) but also affects the oil level in the crankcase.

In early oil tanks the resistance are determined by a drilled hole in the return pipe

GÃ?ran

Hello All again,

When I overhauled the top end on my 1958 19s, I carefully ran a long drill bit of the same size as the oil passages in the head and rocker box, through the oil passages, I polished the valve spring pockets in the cylinder head and ran a drill through the drain holes as well, my thinking on all this was to ensure that everything was free and clear of any possible restrictions on either oil flow or drainage, the polishing was, in theory to encourage oil drainage from the valve recesses and reduce flooding of the guides. The oil pump is a modified twin cylinder item and I believe that the altered oiling system has helped my 19s to survive riding in scorching hot weather here in California, I came back from one ride exhausted, because the heat sucked the energy right out of me, the bike did just fine!

Interestingly, the oil pump on the twins and the singles have the same size scavenge gears, it's the feed gears that differ, with the twins needing the greater oil flow for their shell type bearings. I installed a twin cylinder pump simply because the pump on my 19s was shot and the twin pump was available in good, used condition for about $30.00, I was given an article in the winter, 2002 edition of INOA's bulletin about altering a twin cylinder pump to work in the singles, a little bit of lathe work and I had a much better pump.

Regards,

Albert.