Light Heavy Weight Norton for sale.

Hi Patrick, this one? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Norton-Navigator-350-/112290616586?hash=item1a250ad50a:g:eOQAAOSwA3dYkk5g I don't think they are road holders, look at the sliders?!

There was a good navi project at the Bristol show, all there and running for £1,900 I was tempted!

OH Dear!!!

This is a real bitsa. I am right in the middle of a major rebuild of a Navigator and I can tell you that it will take a lot of money to make that reasonable - and it will be more than it ends up being worth.

The forks are not Roadholders and they look BSA to me as does the front brake.

There will also be endless problems getting it registered.

I suggest it is good for spares only as there will be much easier restoration projects out there than this.

hello yes a real lemon one for the brave or foolish depending on how you look at it ! you can throwmoney at it and end up with a mixed bag, I alway say do your research before spending your money and make should you know what you're buying some of the crap seen on eBayis only fit for scrap .! like a old rusty rocker box with the ad saying real genuine Norton part, but the rusty part of a P&M panther and nothing to do with a Norton yours anna j

If you do not like the bitsa, go for this one, even better!

https://www.classic-trader.com/de/motorrad/inserat/norton/navigator/1961/67378

Previously Ulrich Hoffmann wrote:

https://www.classic-trader.com/de/motorrad/inserat/norton/navigator/1961/67378

@Ulrich,

This is an ES2 or, if realy 350ccm, a M50. Not bad, but the rear wheel and the rear mudguard and the price?

Fritz

I just checked the link and it sold for 640 pounds.

Prob worth that for spares depending on whether everything is in the engine!

Previously John Pullen-Appleby wrote:

Hello All,

It did indeed sell for £640--I bought it. I have little knowledge of Nortons but did wonder about the front end, I have a unit single BSA but that has a Honda front end. I had to chuckle when I had a good look at it--I have a Rickman street Metisse with metal profile forks and a Laverda TLS from brake and a 750 Triumph oil in frame bike with Suzuki forks and the TLS front brake from a Bridgestone (175 I think--same brake as the 350 but an 18 inch wheel--it really works). It was somehow fitting to find it was--ermm different. A 'real lemon'--no I don't think so. I plan electronic ignition and bigger brighter lights--my only transport is old bikes and I ride all year round.

Dan, I think it was you, I saw something on another post regarding the front member and head steady being different on a Jubilee? I don't appear to have a head steady at all. Any advice gratefully accepted. Cheers JPA

PS the engine turns over smoothly, has compression, no fins missing and the screws holding the timing side on look as if them have never been touched. There is some gasket cement on the primary cover and hylomar on the carb manifold.

The front end is--as far as I can tell from a Goldstar--as long as it has 'knock outs' in the hub and a 'loose cam bearing' (sic).

https://www.draganfly.co.uk/index.php/a65anda50/category/917-5-8-inch-front-half-width-alloy-brake-plate

It is an 8 inch brake.

The game is afoot!

good luck.

hope you've got deep pockets!

wouldn't mind this one myself .

not same as the above but still worth a look.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Unique-and-genuine-old-school-Triton-Built-over-45-years-ago-and-just-rebuilt-/142260830773?hash=item211f680235:g:AEgAAOSw-0xYjPYW

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

Hello John,

Welcome to the NOC. You certainly have a bitsa there but you sound well used to non-standard machines. First thing you need to decide is what you intend to do with it - the Club dating officer might be able to give you some useful advice as to obtaining a registration. It is very difficult to obtain registration for a non-standard machine. The Jubilee was a 250cc and the Navigator was a 350cc but there are loads of other differences such as the Jubilee had Francis Barnett style forks with an 18" front wheel and the Navigator had proper Roadholders with a 19" Dominator wheel.

The front downtube is different between Jubilee and Navigator and both are interchangeable (with a little effort) with Francis Barnett downtubes. NOC spares might be able to produce a front down tube (either Jubilee or Navigator) to match what you intend to do. Otherwise just make and weld on your head steady if it is to remain a special.

Goldstar front forks and wheel is a good item to have and you might be able to do a trade for some Norton Roadholders.

Good Luck

Patrick

Hello Patrick and thanks,

I have a Jordanian Army B40 in a C25 frame with a front end made up of two different Honda 250's--TLS brake--works a treat. The only dear thing was getting the wheel rebuilt. Does the Navigator down tube has a welded on bracket for the head steady? Mine has no head steady and no provision for anything to bolt to the 'tube' (more like a girder really). I'll put up some pictures of the yokes---the lockstops work fine--possibly a coincidence but I don't know yet.

It has every chance of remaining a practical class--I'm off to pick up a Boyer kit and a seat cover today.

Greetings John, and welcome to the world of Norton. Your profile details and, indeed, the new project just embarked on, suggest a very positive attitude towards the odd and often frustrating world of old motorbikes that some of the more lily-livered, fair-weather dabblers amongst us (myself included, embarrassingly enough) could take encouragement from. I look forward to reading further bulletins of all and any progress made.

Previously howard_thompson wrote:

Greetings John, and welcome to the world of Norton. Your profile details and, indeed, the new project just embarked on, suggest a very positive attitude towards the odd and often frustrating world of old motorbikes that some of the more lily-livered, fair-weather dabblers amongst us (myself included, embarrassingly enough) could take encouragement from. I look forward to reading further bulletins of all and any progress made.

Hello Howard--I did have a non success today. After vainly looking for a kick start (I have found places that do new ones for Villiers-I'm told they are the same)--I bought a 16mm (4 thou bigger but taking a chance with the splines) kickstart for a 'pit bike'. It cost £8 brand new but--I then realized that pit bike means tint monkey bike. It looks well made but--I was left looking at it like Spinal Tap and their model of Stonehenge. I did pick up a seat cover from Argos (the company I bought it from is a guy I went to university with in the 1990s) but--as my writing is so bad--to the amusement of the women in Argos--I could not decipher the code for the Boyer kit--luckily its on my way home from work.

Myseat has two rubber mounts to accept the prongs that protrude from the frame--or woulddo if there were any--are they removable? Someone does seem to have welded a braked on nearby. There are two odd thin plates on the seat base were I would usually expect to find a bracket. Apparently--on the standard models there was some kind of clips and bolts to clip too--I'll put a photo up when I get home.

John,

A pic is worth a thousand words.

This is a photo of the underside of a Jubilee / Navigator seat for a standard model. The deluxe with all the tinware is different.

Hope this helps,

Crawford

PS will take photo tomorrow of my downtube to show what the head steady bracket should look like.

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

Hi John,

FRONT DOWNTUBE; The head steady mount on Navigator and Jubilee is welded on to the downtube. As the Navigator engine is 1/2" taller than the Jubilee someone has cut the mounting off the Jubilee downtube but hasn't got round to welding on a new mount in the correct place. I can see a metal bar attached to the front of the engine approx where the head steady mounts.

There is one other important difference between the Navigator and Jubilee front downtubes; there is a difference in the head steering geometry -. So if you keep a BSA front end you will have to do your own calculations for steering geometry. In it's day the Navigator was regarded as a capable performer with good handling.

SEAT. Yes there should be two prongs welded to the frame rails which locate in matching mounts on the front of the seat base. What rear mounting is on the seat? There should be two legs welded to the seat ; these locate on the suspension top bolts. This info is for the Standard model - the Deluxe model is different. Are you sure the seat is actually from a Lightweight Norton.?

Patrick

Hello Patrick

I shall just have to experiment with the forks--they need new stanchions in any case. The front wheel is not a Gold Star one (it has now holes or partially pressed holes to knock out. That said it is the same brake--fitted to B33 and some 650 twins. Here is a picture of the seat base (I hope it is a Norton Navigator one I've bought a cover)' I'll send another of the rear arrangements

Hi John, that appears to be a pic of the bike rather than the seat. I see Patrick has replied to your question about the down tube.

dan

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

John,

A pic is worth a thousand words.

This is a photo of the underside of a Jubilee / Navigator seat for a standard model. The deluxe with all the tinware is different.

Hope this helps,

Crawford

PS will take photo tomorrow of my downtube to show what the head steady bracket should look like.

Hello Crawford

Thank you. There does not seem to be a Norton lightweights Haynes manual--I did see one that optimistically tries to cover all twins but it has little room for seats etc. Here's a (bad) picture of the seat base--sockets at the front

Previously John Pullen-Appleby wrote:

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

John,

A pic is worth a thousand words.

This is a photo of the underside of a Jubilee / Navigator seat for a standard model. The deluxe with all the tinware is different.

Hope this helps,

Crawford

PS will take photo tomorrow of my downtube to show what the head steady bracket should look

Hello Crawford

Thank you. There does not seem to be a Norton lightweights Haynes manual--I did see one that optimistically tries to cover all twins but it has little room for seats etc. Here's a (bad) picture of the seat base--sockets at the front

Here is the rear with the two pieces of--nearly thin enough to be shim steel. In the spares list this is a mention of seat clips and a bolt they engage with. Some one has obvious cut the front prongs off--I'll replace them.

Hello everyone who kindly replied

Here is the 'head steady arrangements on my bike--no bracket on the down tube. I presumed the plate near the exhausts ports something to do with the down tubes. I got a new set with the bike does anything hold them on at the front?

OK, got my photo. Mine is a 1964 Navigator. Maybe not the best photo now that I see it but it will do.

There is a bracket welded on to each side of the down tube. You can see one clearly and the identical bracket is behind it - maybe you can just see it.

The head steady is a fairly small item which has a flat bit that has two holes - one for a stud screwing in to each head and then a sort of rolled edge through which a bolt goes tat is anchored each end by the brackets on the frame.

I guess the steady is needed since the frame is bolt up and would tend to flex so the more rigidity you can get in to it the better.

Best I can do at the moment.

Crawford

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

OK, got my photo. Mine is a 1964 Navigator. Maybe not the best photo now that I see it but it will do.

There is a bracket welded on to each side of the down tube. You can see one clearly and the identical bracket is behind it - maybe you can just see it.

The head steady is a fairly small item which has a flat bit that has two holes - one for a stud screwing in to each head and then a sort of rolled edge through which a bolt goes tat is anchored each end by the brackets on the frame.

I guess the steady is needed since the frame is bolt up and would tend to flex so the more rigidity you can get in to it the better.

Best I can do at the moment.

Crawford

Hello Crawford--thanks very much! I was sitting in my drive working on a Triumph this afternoon (playing up last night) when I looked to left to see a guy wheeling a pristine BSA Goldstar along the road--the mag was playing up apparently --he came back with it running not long after apparently he lives nearby.

Previously crawford_logan wrote:

OK, got my photo. Mine is a 1964 Navigator. Maybe not the best photo now that I see it but it will do.

There is a bracket welded on to each side of the down tube. You can see one clearly and the identical bracket is behind it - maybe you can just see it.

The head steady is a fairly small item which has a flat bit that has two holes - one for a stud screwing in to each head and then a sort of rolled edge through which a bolt goes tat is anchored each end by the brackets on the frame.

I guess the steady is needed since the frame is bolt up and would tend to flex so the more rigidity you can get in to it the better.

Best I can do at the moment.

Crawford

Hello Crawford--thanks very much! I was sitting in my drive working on a Triumph this afternoon (playing up last night) when I looked to left to see a guy wheeling a pristine BSA Goldstar along the road--the mag was playing up apparently --he came back with it running not long after apparently he lives nearby.

Whoever cut the bracket off my frame has left no trace at all--there are bits of it that are bodges even I would not consider and other bits that look like they hardly been used--what it will be like inside--well I' ll find out. Thanks again.

Previously Dan Field wrote:

Hi John, that appears to be a pic of the bike rather than the seat. I see Patrick has replied to your question about the down tube.

dan

Thanks Dan--I must say I'm very impressed with how helpful people are in NOC

Further observations.

I'ts ironic really--I am a professional historian but--I seem to be doing more research on the navigator than anything else.

The internet seems to be something with the properties attributed to a medical textbook by Jerome K Jerome--a a bit of a read and one has all the symptoms of every complaint.

My front frame member has some heroic brazing near the front engine mount--it sees well done so I shall keep it--there is a 250 front frame member on the club spares page for £10--bargain--mine in a 25 one (I think) with no head steady bracket. I can see no trace of there ever having been one--looking at the Francis Barnett OC pages I see that the same member is common to FBs as well (nearly--they do not have a head steady or the 6 threaded bosses in the steering head tube (what are for anyone?)--FBs apparently have the frame number stamped into the steering head as well.

By this logic I have a Norton front member that some has divested of its head steady bracket. I did see a Navigator on sale.

https://www.gumtree.com/p/norton-motorbikes/norton-navigator/1158042814

which also seems to have no head steady.

Given that someone has made a fair job of installing some beefy BSA forks and welding on lock stops to suit--I'll get a head steady bracket welded on.

Still the Gumtree picture did give a reasonable look at the points plate--I suspect this will have to be a JPA fabrication--unless of course someone has one out there........

PS I bought a boyer kit that came with instructions on how to modify the rotor for Norton and AJS/Matchless lightweights--I pulled off the advance retard and points etc last night and there is no male taper needing a modified rotor etc--is it just the AMC singles. If anyone has a need for an advance retard and points etc--I'll swap for a points plate, or WHY?

If there are no frame lugs for the seat or head steady, I'd wonder if you have a FB frame? Have you checked the numbers? The Norton numbers are usually on the exhaust/rear foot rest frame extension.

i fitted a Boyer which was supplied by Al Osborn, the club electrical guru. You can modify the taper or as I did put two small washers behind the plate to make sure the clearance between the magnets and sensor Is maintained.

The jubilee and navigator downtube is different so be careful when buying a spare ( if that's what you do) the differences are difficult to spot in the field! The steering lock and position of the head steady are probably the key differences. I think the frame mounting holes are located slightly differently to adjust the head angle for the road holders on the Navi, but the differences are very small.

dan

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

But both Dan and Ulrich have more up to date info on this.

Her is my Boyer Base plate for the Norton Lightweights, it has a lager diamater than a Commando plate. The bike was already converted to 12 Volts.

Here is my almost bare frame. You can see the seat lugs for the front fixing and the brackets for the head steady

You can also see the steering lock and how it's bolted to the headstock on a navi frame.

Hello Patrick Dan and Ulrich,

Thanks for all your info. This is fascinating --and I have not even lifted the head. The while of a frame coming in different bits is new to me. I have got a 1964 T120 with a bolt up frame but--I and as far as I know other people--just never unbolt them unless they are building choppers etc.

Dan, I did think about the Francis Barnett possibility--apparently they have numbers on the headstock and no taped bush ala Ulrich's photo.

The numbers on the footrest bracket on the bottom RH side of mine say 94851 with 17 a line below--which I understand to be a Jubilee number.

I have found two pump lugs (Bent out of sight) but I think I can see those on Ulrich's fine picture. A former owner of my bike has been chopping off brackets and welding on others. From what I can see the frame is (normally) in 4 parts a front section (I have spare one in the post admittedly 250 but at £10--I can live with that), two top/sides and a central channel like member. All of which can be separated.

I want to keep this feature as--riding 30 miles with a Rickman Street Metisse (very much a one piece object) slung on my shoulder ala Robin Hood's bow--was no fun (and silly). However,

The pictures show two brackets welded (badly--luckily I used to work in engineering and know specialist welders) to link the two top tubes.

One I presume is doing the work of the series of (presently unused) lugs and and holes where a stud could lock the whole lot together. One had the coils mounted in an over/under way I've not seen before.

Ah--I cannot attach one file at a time. The one shown here has the tank rear mount bolted to it--as it was not here originally--have I got a de-lux tank?

Here is the rear mount on the tank-the tank is rusty but sound as far as I can see--not one dent.

The rotor modifications on the leaflet assumed that the taper on the end of the cam was male not female--I assume this is the case with AJS etc.

Thanks for all your help lads--lots of dismantling to do now

Cheers

JPA

More frame pictures:

Before sandblasting and powdercoating. There is a bracket hanging down from the rear channel which is the correct rear tank mount.

Here are the parts after coating:

You are right, someone has been out with a welder! The bracket over the engine is to mount the coils but it shouldn't look like that and the other bar to mount the tank is also non standard as is the bracket on the tank...... sorry! As I recall the tank mounting bracket is bolted together with the top mount of the centre channel. It might be easier to buy new side rails, and if the numbers match just weld that bit on?

Hello All,

Thanks for the advice and pictures--I should be able to set all that to rights without too much trouble.

What's the story on the moulded decorative cover bits that seem to bolt onto the back frame member? Visible in white on Ulrich's second picture?

Has anyone any experience of Wipac alternator rotors used with lucas stators? I'm a fan of bright lights

Previously patrick_mullen wrote:

And here's a picture of tank mounting

Interesting, mine are a bit different to that, I'll post a pic later.

Previously John Pullen-Appleby wrote:

What's the story on the moulded decorative cover bits that seem to bolt onto the back frame member? Visible in white on Ulrich's second picture?

Has anyone any experience of Wipac alternator rotors used with lucas stators? I'm a fan of bright lights

These styling panels go around the rear centre channel .

Alternator: I have mounted a Wipac rotor and a Lucas (Commando?) stator . No expirience so far because the cylinder and head is still in the engine shop. You cannot mount a Lucas rotor beause of a different inside diameter .

Patrick, Ulrich and Dan

Thank you so much. I can see what some one has done--they have not got various bits and have sought solutions--sometimes what they have done is close to the original sometimes not. When I first built the Rickman years ago--I would devise how to do something--make a a bit--and then recognise some part in the box that was supposed to do that job.

I came upon some lock stops for a Wideline Trition I built for a mate of mine many years ago--after re inventing the wheel I kept the bits--being able to see other people's photos saves this happening.

Cheers

JPA

Some more detail pics:

The rear tank mount

The coils bracket on the frame

The tyre pump in situ. You also see my homemade bracket for the Boyer box.

The rear mounting tab on the tank which is bare metal with a patch of bondo...

and the bolt with the holding rubbers for the tank

That's what my tank mounting looks like

Hello All,

Thank you so much. I am nearly ready to take the engine out now. I don't suppose anyone has any idea where I could get a kickstart?

I have looked into various inspection covers and the engine seems to have been built but not run--I can see that orange silicon gasket (late 1970s/1980s). There is is oil in the engine--as it is leaking onto my dining room floor--its a good I'm single

So far I have not seen any evidence of the sort of enthusiasm as with the frame.