Hot start - not

A well overhauled mag shouldn't cause any trouble (guess what I do for a living), the dry plugs sound like carburation to me, but I have never owned a twin, Norton or other, so other people will probably be able to offer more advice on this bike.

Not every Well Known mag repairer has a perfect reputation... I was at a bike show today and was regaled by tales of woe regarding failing overhauled mags. So that's the first place I would look. Can you borrow a known OK mag and substitute it? I run my Atlas on premium unleaded without problems.

Do you really need to use 100LL Avgas? Despite being LL, the lead levels are still surprisingly high. And it's pricey.

Anyway, I still reckon it's the mag. Oddly enough, I got a mag back from my trusted repairer this week and it had been displaying similar symptoms. Turned out to be a cracked slip ring rather than the capacitor. Trusted repairer uses dye penetrant when checking.

4S camshaft?, for road use?. I don't think it is helping. Also the heavily leaded fuel may be giving the plugs a hard time.How do they look?.

Is there a tufnol insulator between the carb and the cylinder head? It could be heat soaking back into the carb causing evaporation problems. That's a common problem on sidevalve engines which run hotter than OHV engines.. I know your bike isn't a sidevalve, but the carb getting heat from the engine whil stood warm could be affecting your exotic fuel

Why not try a tankfull of ordinary petrol to see if that eliminates the problem. As I have said here before I think the ethonal concerns are over hyped anyway. All my old bikes run perfectly on whatever is the cheapest whenever I need a refill, but let's not get into a debate about that.

Hi Ian,

Your hot starting issue sounds like my WD 16H. Any pit stop needs to be for at least 30 minutes....

On my 650, starting is notthe issue, although I have converted to 12V & Boyer. I use a single Mk 1Amal 930, the right size and also Champion N4C plugs.

Avgas is good but I understand that it also contains anti freeze. If you are not in the South West, you could try BP Ultimate, that is what I use and currently does not contain Ethanol. Why people just accept this solvent and not complain to their MP and MEP I'll never know. Up to last year I used 4* leaded but my supplier stopped getting it because Bayford Thrust would not supply smaller amounts. Agreed, Ethanol is bad news. So much for choice.

Talking to a Sunbeam S7 owner the other day, he had is tank resprayed after filling with (E5)Ethanol in Germany andwashedthe paintclean off. I suggested BP Ultimate E0 and he said he wasn't paying that much......How much for a re-spray?

Apart from the above, if that doesn't work it does rather sound like the mag. When you fit your Mk 1 930 carb, as per Mercury set up, don't forget to tickle it before each start up..That is critical. Other than that it looks like Boyer?

Sounds as if it is themagneto causing the problem!

Have you checked the spark when cold, then compared itafter runningwith the enginehot and not starting to see ifit's the same?

A healthy maggy should throw a crisp blue spark in the atmosphereacross a 6mm gap at normal kicking speed. Don't try any larger gapbecause it could internally jump the safety gap screw, or, if not fitted, cause the start of tracking through the insulation.

Just a thought, your air vent in the petrol cap is clear and not blocked?

Paul

Hi.

I'd ditch the NGKs for Champions. Although the evidence is stillsomewhat anecdotal, I work on classics for a local shop and we've had a few classics (and a couple of moderns) that have had running problems that have been attributed to NGK plugs. Don't know why, but the problems have been solved by fitting Champion plugs N4s or N5s.

The other thing I'd check is that your float needles aren't hanging up in their housings. Next time it won't start, just gently depress the tickler and see if any fuel comes out, if not, keep the tickler down and give the carb a rap with the end of a hammer handle and see if it then passes fuel. It could explain why the bike will bump start and keep running - the vibes are enough to stop the needles sticking.

I would also question the need for Avgas, try ordinary unleaded.

Worth a try.

Regards, Ian.

I'm not saying the 4S is the problem, but maybe not helping, There has been problems with fake NGK plugs , and the top grades of pump fuels which seemed to be the answer to the ethanol problem definately give me sooted up plugs.My bikes run best and cleaneron standard pump fuel ,but i dread to think what its doing to the fuel system. My Mercedes filler pipe just disolved recently .I would not use Champion plugs even if they were Free.

Previously ian_cordes wrote:

That's true, there have been fake NGK's, whereas maybe no crooks think it is worth faking Champions! As I said, opinions are divided....

I bought these particular NGK's from the local bike shop, who I think will stock genuine items. I will try another set from another source, perhaps.

I guess you need to suit your carb/plug settings to your fuel. It may well be that plugs; or carb settings; which work ok with one fuel, need adjusting for a different fuel. If you have ever raced, you will know that the racing fuel on sale at the circuits will wreck your engine if it is not set up for it, so changes have to be made.

I think the 4S cam is fine...... possibly surpassed by the PW3, though, which is going in my Commando Proddie Racer, when I can get around to it... a round tuit.....

I may well heed Peter Stowe's advice and get a tufnell insulator, though.

Cheers

Ian

Hello ian now then you not need a none leaded petrol all 650 were fitted with pistons that will run on ethanol as they were export to the USA, and you need to use the right spark plugs BP7ES as resistors inside the plugs ,as these were the plugs for my Nissan Bluebird ,1.6LX some of the new Champions plugs have resistors fitted in side them, The plugs you need are the plugs I have been using for the pass two year with no trouble and good starting hot or cold , there Bosch W7DTC from Tim Green spark-plug.co and they are self shielding and run cleaner than any of the other spark plug , This is my experience with these plugs I am very happy using them , and my bike is a very early Norton Manxman 650. built at the end of November 1960 and sent to New Jersey on 13th January 1961 for the USA market Only . and you not not need a 4s Camshaft in a 650 as they were fitted as standard with a race developed camshaft , right from the first 650 manxman 18-93601.workshop number 7 .and 18-93602 workshop number 1 the workshop numbers do not run in order , some machines were taken off the production line ,and the same camshaft went in to the Commando , And there nothing wrong with your magneto it should be a K2FC competition mag , its your carb settings are too weak 650s like to run a bit on the rich side you can tell weak running bikes by the bluing on the exhausts , your better off running bit we bit on the rich side, then they run cooler , my bike starts without any need for the tickler too be used ,

yours Anna J

Agree with the sentiments regarding Champion plugs. They just don't seem to work with my bikes and Land Rovers. NGK B7ES or BP7ES (extended nose) are my plugs of choice. Itmight be worth sticking a temperature probe on the magneto. It could be that when it is stopped in the garage it is getting hot from the engine and thenfailing. You can get a spark in clear air which disappears whn the plug is back in the engine.

P.S. Do you need an air filter in the UK climate? Not exactly famed for dust storms. Well, not up here in the frozen North.

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously ian_cordes wrote:

That's true, there have been fake NGK's, whereas maybe no crooks think it is worth faking Champions! As I said, opinions are divided....

I bought these particular NGK's from the local bike shop, who I think will stock genuine items. I will try another set from another source, perhaps.

I guess you need to suit your carb/plug settings to your fuel. It may well be that plugs; or carb settings; which work ok with one fuel, need adjusting for a different fuel. If you have ever raced, you will know that the racing fuel on sale at the circuits will wreck your engine if it is not set up for it, so changes have to be made.

I think the 4S cam is fine...... possibly surpassed by the PW3, though, which is going in my Commando Proddie Racer, when I can get around to it... a round tuit.....

I may well heed Peter Stowe's advice and get a tufnell insulator, though.

Cheers

Ian

Hello ian now then you not need a none leaded petrol all 650 were fitted with pistons that will run on ethanol as they were export to the USA, and you need to use the right spark plugs BP7ES as resistors inside the plugs ,as these were the plugs for my Nissan Bluebird ,1.6LX some of the new Champions plugs have resistors fitted in side them, The plugs you need are the plugs I have been using for the pass two year with no trouble and good starting hot or cold , there Bosch W7DTC from Tim Green spark-plug.co and they are self shielding and run cleaner than any of the other spark plug , This is my experience with these plugs I am very happy using them , and my bike is a very early Norton Manxman 650. built at the end of November 1960 and sent to New Jersey on 13th January 1961 for the USA market Only . and you not not need a 4s Camshaft in a 650 as they were fitted as standard with a race developed camshaft , right from the first 650 manxman 18-93601.workshop number 7 .and 18-93602 workshop number 1 the workshop numbers do not run in order , some machines were taken off the production line ,and the same camshaft went in to the Commando , And there nothing wrong with your magneto it should be a K2FC competition mag , its your carb settings are too weak 650s like to run a bit on the rich side you can tell weak running bikes by the bluing on the exhausts , your better off running bit we bit on the rich side, then they run cooler , my bike starts without any need for the tickler too be used ,

yours Anna J

The BP7ES is the correct spark plug for Ian's bike and is also correct for your Manxman. It is not a 5K resistor type plug as you wrongly mentioned, it is a zero resistance type. Even if it was a resistor type, Ian has already said he is using a non resitor type of plug cap. This problem does not look like a spark plug fault anyway, if it was he would have probably sorted it.

JMc

Previously ian_cordes wrote:

You are right there John, it is the BPR7ES which has the resistor.

I have fitted a new set of BP7ES; I don't trust Champions; and an insulator on the manifold. Leaving the air filter off, and winding the air screw in 1/2 a turn; from 2 to 1 1/2 turns out; to compensate, it started 2nd prod, after a good tickle, and 1/2 choke. I gave it a good 20 mile warm up; a cracking run really, in the sun, and a crisp engine performing well, and returned home. Plugs out, looked good, although maybe a touch lean, back in, and started 1st prod. Left it for 10 minutes, gave it a tickle, started first prod. Left it 40 minutes, good tickle, 1st prod. Same again an hour later. It can't really be the mag, can it? Oh me of little faith...

So was it a combination of little things; fuel, air filter, vapourising fuel, not tickling thoroughly when warm....? I will proceed with caution now, as I have been fed a bum steer before, just as complacency sets in!

I would like to thank all who have contributed to this thread, for, by collecting and implementing some of your ideas, I no longer felt lost with it, and seem to have had a good result; fingers crossed! Hopefully there is good information for others here, on set-up etc, to help them on their way! I can now look forward to 'Climbing The Hill' at Prescott on April 6th, knowing it has a chance of starting on the line...

See you there?

Cheers

Ian

Hi Ian, pleased to hear that you appear to have it sorted now, although as you say you don't want to speak too soon. At least you have some useful information if you get problems in future. There was some duff info but you can usually spot that, if I don't know then I don't bother to comment like most on here!

Good luck at Prescott, I will look out for you. It should be a good weekend if the weather is OK!

Cheers, John

Just to say, prior to the problems I mentioned in my post, I had no particular preferences, having usedNGKs in my Commando Metisse years ago and recently,in myDommiwith no problems (incidentally, my ES2 has had the same Champion plug in it for donkey's years). As I said, we do seem to have had a spate of NGKs (non-resistor)breaking down recently, particularly with magnetoes- maybe our local bike shop has received a batch of 'fakes!' If anyone out there knows how to distinguish these from the real thing - I'd be interested to know.

Regards,

Ian.

Hi Ian,

Well done on your last comments. I know everyone has given their advice with regard to what has worked for them in good faith. John's comment of 'duff info' was totally uncalled for. Just for info, I have never had a Champion plug fail in 40 years of motorcycling but some other riders may have had failures, that is for them to say. N4C Champions in my 650 and a single 930 Mk1 carb and pulls like a train. Shame about the knock but that is something else.(Engine rebuild job coming)

It would be good if you could go back to 100% Avgas once you are happy with reliability, just to prove the fuel one way or the other.

Good luck and please let us know how you get on.

Previously neil_wyatt wrote:

Hi Ian,

Well done on your last comments. I know everyone has given their advice with regard to what has worked for them in good faith. John's comment of 'duff info' was totally uncalled for. Just for info, I have never had a Champion plug fail in 40 years of motorcycling but some other riders may have had failures, that is for them to say. N4C Champions in my 650 and a single 930 Mk1 carb and pulls like a train. Shame about the knock but that is something else.(Engine rebuild job coming)

It would be good if you could go back to 100% Avgas once you are happy with reliability, just to prove the fuel one way or the other.

Good luck and please let us know how you get on.

Neil, I have also used Champion and NGK and both have worked fine for me. In fact with my Commando I have used Champion most of the time and don't notice any difference in starting or performancebetween using them or NGK. I was referring to the incorrect information about the NGK BP7ES claiming it was a resistor type which it clearly is not. Most of the comments were very useful, as you say the advice is from others experiences and what works for some may not work for others. However if something is stated as fact then it should be correct.

You have to be particularly careful referring to comments as 'Duff info'. Contributors are a sensitive bunch and may refrain from adding their snippets in future - and who knows, one maypossess that vital bit of knowledge which could save you much angst. Gordon.

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously ian_cordes wrote:

That's true, there have been fake NGK's, whereas maybe no crooks think it is worth faking Champions! As I said, opinions are divided....

I bought these particular NGK's from the local bike shop, who I think will stock genuine items. I will try another set from another source, perhaps.

I guess you need to suit your carb/plug settings to your fuel. It may well be that plugs; or carb settings; which work ok with one fuel, need adjusting for a different fuel. If you have ever raced, you will know that the racing fuel on sale at the circuits will wreck your engine if it is not set up for it, so changes have to be made.

I think the 4S cam is fine...... possibly surpassed by the PW3, though, which is going in my Commando Proddie Racer, when I can get around to it... a round tuit.....

I may well heed Peter Stowe's advice and get a tufnell insulator, though.

Cheers

Ian

Hello ian now then you not need a none leaded petrol all 650 were fitted with pistons that will run on ethanol as they were export to the USA, and you need to use the right spark plugs BP7ES as resistors inside the plugs ,as these were the plugs for my Nissan Bluebird ,1.6LX some of the new Champions plugs have resistors fitted in side them, The plugs you need are the plugs I have been using for the pass two year with no trouble and good starting hot or cold , there Bosch W7DTC from Tim Green spark-plug.co and they are self shielding and run cleaner than any of the other spark plug , This is my experience with these plugs I am very happy using them , and my bike is a very early Norton Manxman 650. built at the end of November 1960 and sent to New Jersey on 13th January 1961 for the USA market Only . and you not not need a 4s Camshaft in a 650 as they were fitted as standard with a race developed camshaft , right from the first 650 manxman 18-93601.workshop number 7 .and 18-93602 workshop number 1 the workshop numbers do not run in order , some machines were taken off the production line ,and the same camshaft went in to the Commando , And there nothing wrong with your magneto it should be a K2FC competition mag , its your carb settings are too weak 650s like to run a bit on the rich side you can tell weak running bikes by the bluing on the exhausts , your better off running bit we bit on the rich side, then they run cooler , my bike starts without any need for the tickler too be used ,

yours Anna J

The BP7ES is the correct spark plug for Ian's bike and is also correct for your Manxman. It is not a 5K resistor type plug as you wrongly mentioned, it is a zero resistance type. Even if it was a resistor type, Ian has already said he is using a non resitor type of plug cap. This problem does not look like a spark plug fault anyway, if it was he would have probably sorted it.

JMc

No its B7ES Not BP7ES these are extended nose plugs , But its it only me that Run a Norton 650 twin on Bosch W7DTC as these I find are better then NGK and Champion put too gether, there lot better starting and better on fuel and give a cleaner exhaust and I had NO problems with them since I started using them two years ago And what works for me may work for you if you give it a try out, I only speak from my experiences, the spark is more exposed to the fuel that a NGK or Champion plugs, and there self shielding, less fouling for better ruining . As recommend by Tim Green of Green spark plugs.co.uk yours anna j

Hi Ian,

Sorry to see your damaged paint work. This solvent took some of the paint from my ES2 tank too. That was Tesco 99 Momentum. I understand that this stuff has the maximum permissible 7% Ethanol allowed, without a warning notice. (5% is the standard amount under EN228).

I will send a note in to the BP share holders meeting, scheduled for next month, asking then to keep Ethanol out of Ultimate but if they insist then mark up the pump.

I keep writing to my Lib Dem MEP's; asking them what they are doing to keep some UK petrol free from Ethanol? They never reply and only UKIP will get rid of the stuff.

If you have a MURCO in your area then it is worth writing to their HQ, unless you see the tanker driver and asking if their Super is supplied from their own refinery. If so, you are in luck.

Thanks for the update.

I just want to remind riders that Ethanol was introduced by stealth in 2006/7, even the Petseal agent didn't know why the sealant had gone soft.

Politicians dida deal with auto manufacturers and didn't bother warning the public, especially owners of older vehicles. And it seems that no amount of damage will keep them from their renewables targets. Stick with your Avgas Ian.

In desperation with paint lifting, I resorted to brushing silver enamel followed by a coat of yacht varnish. Not a concours finish but it works. If, like me, you regard a bike as an all the year round workhorse, it's good enough. OK I know it's a BSA but the paint on the Domi tank seems to be resisting current petrol pretty well. At the price of Avgas, I only burn it when airborne. Gordon.

Hello Ian,

This has certainly made a mess of your very nice paintwork and I am curious to know what paint was used when repainting your tank.

I knew from experience that ethanol in petrol certainly causes problems if cellulose paint is used but I thought that 'modern' water based or two pack lacquer would be petrol resistant.

Patrick

Hi Patrick.

The paint was supplied by RS Paints, as a match for Polychromatic Grey. It was sprayed then laquered with 'petrol-proof' lacquer by a highly regarded local painter, whom many car and bike restorers trust with their P&J's. Bear in mind though, that the paint which was attacked was in effect inside the tank. The vulnerable area of paint is the edge, which in this case was at the bottom of the filler. So, the fumes were able to get under the edge of the paint, and lift it off. It has not penetrated through the paint, but under it. Even so, I keep a rag handy in case any drips onto the top of the tank....

It seems that come April, all fuel must be E5. I am a bit puzzled by Tesco at 7%, as I thought anything over 5% had to carry a warning? Not that I looked, as I didn't think it was necessary.

Ian

PS. Having done a bit more reading, it looks as though diesel can have up to 7% bio-fuel content, whilst petrol is 5%.

PPS. Tesco's website says it contains 5% ethanol....

Hello Ian well its a funny looking 650SS tank , to me it looks more like a Dominator model 88 from 1955/6 . and the paint from RS paint is the wrong colour for this year , the colour they and selling as Polychromatic is in fact Not Polychromatic But Norton Grey Metallic from 1960/2 this is what the VW palatine was matched with way back in mists of 1980s and now its Acrylic paint you end up with, if you need the right colour and good paint then you need to contact Nu-again Paints of Bedford they make there own paint up and they been doing this since the 1946 that were I got my paint for my Norton Manxman 650 twin and its the right colour too. then I used and anti-ethanol lacquer this cost £16 a tin and will just do a tank but its better to get two tins it give you a good finish and a very nice shine with no worries of ethanol spoiling the paint work , anyway its worked ok for me, so try some out .you have look on ebay paints it a aerosol and you have too pull a ring under side of the can too activate the lacquer , but do spray it in a warm dry area with ventilation IE a built in fan extractor and please use the right mask for spray paints and mechanics gloves the latex rubber blue type, but you need to give the tank filler a coat of paint with on lacquer in first, then the anti-lacquer over this, yours anna j

Hi Ian,

Sorry to see your damaged paint work. This solvent took some of the paint from my ES2 tank too. That was Tesco 99 Momentum. I understand that this stuff has the maximum permissible 7% Ethanol allowed, without a warning notice. (5% is the standard amount under EN228).

I will send a note in to the BP share holders meeting, scheduled for next month, asking then to keep Ethanol out of Ultimate but if they insist then mark up the pump.

I keep writing to my Lib Dem MEP's; asking them what they are doing to keep some UK petrol free from Ethanol? They never reply and only UKIP will get rid of the stuff.

If you have a MURCO in your area then it is worth writing to their HQ, unless you see the tanker driver and asking if their Super is supplied from their own refinery. If so, you are in luck.

Thanks for the update.

you can write to your Lib-Dem MP until the cows come home He or She will not write back to you as the Lib-Dem's are Pro EU and anti Classic too. So do not write or listen too the Lib -Dem's they only give out disinformation or what they want you to vote on, its there agenda and not the publics agenda , The UKIP is a party who will stand up for the public of the UK , But too me politics is not working, we need a better way of doing things,

Hi Ian,

Thanks for the picture of your lovely Norton twin.

First of all with paint, like anything else, there is a difference between petrol proof and Ethanol proof. You are right about 7% in bio diesel and all the trouble that causes. I will stand corrected if proven otherwise but I'm certain that I read way backthat 7% Ethanol was the legallimitin petrol without warning, this so that 5% could be exceeded by miscalculation or whatever (Tesco 99) without comeback.On certain Green (So called) issues it would not be or he first time that embarrassing information has been removed from the internet.

chris_blake@murphyoilcorp.com If you write to Chris, you will find him very helpful. Unfortunately. std 95 RON went 5% Ethanol last October but Super, Chris tells me (Murco Super)will remain E0 for the foreseeable future BUT only where supplied from their own refinery. Chris can tell you where your nearest E0 Murco station is.

As I write, BP Ultimate remains E0 outside of the SW (Sorry Ian) but the fear is that this might change next Month and even without warning because as their get out clause says; the specification allows for 5% Ethanol. This would be mad to add Ethanol when they could capture most of the old vehicle movement for fuel. I'll be letting them know with my BP voting form.

I've said it before and wrote in the VMCC journal that the FBHVC have let us down badly in supporting E5 as their choice of legacy fuel. Clearly something strange going on here!

My MP is writing to Sir Greg Knight MP who I understand is supporting E0 petrol for older vehicles, I'll write back when I have more information.

All my tanks are full with E0, with a plastic petrol can full for when I start the 99. Let's hope that this is not the end. Good luck.

PS: Anyone thought of testing Tesco's finest? Mind you, within the legal parameters, the specification can change without notice! One spec I saw (Did see) for Tesco 99 was that it also contained 3% Methanol, like Speedway bikes run on but this is also alcohol /solvent so that is 8% paint stripper for you!!!

Ian, what a splendid bike. And non-standard in all the best ways! If it goes as well as it looks it will be a corker.

Hi Ian,

Remember that failure is when you give up.The GreenLibLabCon are all in it togetherand UKIP the only party to free us from Green targets. One other option, I wonder if there is a 4* Leaded supplier in the SW. My nearest, 28 miles away stopped selling it last year because they couldn't make a big enough order. BS 40/40 is E0 and I think still supplied through Bayford Thrust. There is not much of it about now.

You can find this on the internet; but you can remove Ethanol by adding water to EN228, the water mixes with the Ethanol (Not petrol) and takes it to the bottom. Trouble is; what else is being absorbed by the water and Ethanol? I think we got this far before a previous Ethanol relatedthread was closed.

If BP Ultimate goes Ethanol then it will be a 63 mile round trip for me to collect Murco Super! How Green is that?

With a NOC Rally coming up in Devon from 31 July, I'm waiting to see where the club recommend making fuel stops, because thee is nothing about it in the otherwise excellentbooking form.

I think it is Gordon who puts some 2 stroke oil in the tank but you can also buy some all in one, anti Ethanol, octane booster and lead replacement from Miller's oil. That may help too, I know it is highly recommended.But all at a cost. (About Eight quid +)

Hang on in there.........

Previously ian_cordes wrote:

Anna.

You are spot-on with the year and model, well done! However, it is fitted with a 1964 650SS engine, so originality is not my prime concern. I am happy with the paint colour, and so far, the peeling has not gone out side the filler, so I am not at this stage planning a respray.

Thank you for the tips, though.

Here she is - see attached photo.

Ian

That is one good looking bike. Take good care of it.

Hi Ian,

The 2 stroke oil is to help stop the tank corrosion.

Just a bugger we have to pay for stuff to suppress what we never wanted in the first place.