ES2 Timing Guidance

Are you sure full advance is with a tight wire? I have 1955 ES2 and that is loose wire full advance. If the ignition timing is anywhere near it should start. 

Try lifting the throttle slide up a touch with the throttle stop screw incrementally would be my thought.

Josh, I'm not being a smart arse, but have you tried push starting it?

Don Anson
Melbourne 

Josh, It could also be the decompressor is slightly open.
Does the bike actually have compression ( spark plug out finger over the plug hole )

Does it actually have spark before you try to start it?

As Ian says above these bike sould at least fire even if all the settings are out.

PS congratulations on the King Pin vernier sprocket.  One of the best things I did for my ES2.

Hi Josh,

   I think Ian is correct. The mag advance/retard cable should be nearest the cylinder barrel side which is slack wire advance. Mag rotation is counter-clockwise when viewed from sprocket side and clockwise viewed from points side. 1948 cast-iron engines timing was 45 degrees or 5/8" BTDC, 15 thou plug gap might help with starting. 35 degrees BTDC is what is used with 10 to 1 compression ratio.

Josh, your symptoms suggest by kicking back it's a bit advanced, and on the second attempt it lacks fuel.  Couple of points to check...

Not sure of plug choice, I assume you took guidance but gap on a mag ignition 18thou is what I use.

The MagDyno A/R cable would enter on the left side if its slack cable advance, right for tight.

Are you sparking when plug is held against cylinder head?  Heat the plug before you install to ensure it's 

Air screw would be better at 1 to1.5 turns off closed.

Float level will be overridden by tickling, is fuel present in carb?

Throttle adjustment, do you have a little slack in throttle cable?  Slide should be sat down completely as these motors require minimal throttle for starting.  

The Mag box setting... are you sure you are setting to the right edge, dark to light? Not light to dark ? Verify with the cig paper method.
500T top end but what piston? only 6:1 compression if you retain the piston  

Procedure wise I trust you are decompressing at TDC and moving the piston over to the down stroke then a hefty committed stroke. Settings would be mid advance and full choke.  If it runs up the advance to increase the speed then ease the choke off 

if you suspect the carb, spray some fuel directly into the intake, if it coughs and try's to run. You know it's there you should check.  

One change at a time till you eliminate the cause.

Good Luck
 

Josh,go easy with ether, as it washes oil off valves&guides, bore&rings, anything else that it can.
   
   in your 2 photos,rotation is clockwise according to post,adv/ret wire comes in L.h. top, so as it drops downwards past 8o'cl th wire will be starting to slacken.

   Mags with any added resistance hardware is problematic to slow/any running spark. So, no resistance plug, no resistance wire, no resistance plug cap is what you want.

I n answer to your latest post checking the advance and retard. Moving the opening point away from the direction of rotation will retard the spark opening conversely moving the opening point closer to the direction of rotation will advance the time for the spark to occur.
Trying full choke is a good idea to at least give the engine the fuel it needs to perform any modicum of stroking, even eight stroking is a valuable result at first that can be addressed later.
Retarding the ignition by 10° or 15° will do no harm as a setting up procedure to then dial it in once you have found the correct running point.
Have you checked the plug for signs of fuel in the combustion chamber.
Not having read all of the comments above so I might be covering this item but is the magneto firing whilst under compression?
A trick I used to pull to determine if any ignition system was working under these conditions was to cut the high tension wire in two and place each end into a tightish clear tube then to have them just slightly apart so that one could see if a spark was actually there to be observed.
A Heath Robinson approach to a "Colortune" in effect.

I would not try to start your ES2 with full advance or full retard.  Somewhere in the middle works best on mine.  Usual procedure is: set adv/ret as above.  Tickle carb but not too much.  Move kickstart until compression stops it.  Use decompressor to gently move kickstart a fraction past compression.  Allow kickstart back to the top.  Then a steady push all the way to the bottom and away she should go.  Immediately she fires move advance/retard lever to fully advanced and you're ready to go.

It sounds worse than it really is but once you've done it a couple of times, it's much easier than a twin cylinder bike without a decompressor.  Good luck!! 

The best throttle opening on starting is just a whisker of throttle.

Some very good advice there,  After a few attempts to start  (no ether ) you should see fuel on the plug . If not suspect low fuel level and possibly pilot issues.Tickling should result in some carb dripping. Over fuelling will usually need a wide open throttle and no choke to clear.

It does sound like timing issue.  7/16" should be OK.  That is on full advance which is in running position.  You should expect to move the lever so the edge of the 1  1/4" (approx) disc on the lever is about 1/4" away from TDC.  That should be roughly starting position.  If you do that, you can check with your degree disc or just a measuring rod to make sure it is retarded back closer to TDC, and not even further advanced.
And swapping out a plug that's become wet or oily through fruitless attempts to start often cures things.

Beware of dodgy/fake plugs, Ive had duff Champion and NGK plugs. 
Dan 

Checking ignition on an ES2
To check whether it is tight wire or slack wire advance I would employ some silver foil (Kitkat does nicely) and a wooden spoon from a coffee shop.  The wider end of the spoon stops it falling into the cylinder!

Take the plug out, find top dead centre with the spoon in the plug hole touching the top of the piston, put a mark on the spoon with a pencil as a reference, I use the top of the fins above the plug.

Then set the advance / retard to tight wire position, turn the engine back before TDC, insert foil between the points, then gently turn the engine forwards until the foil just slips out.  Make another mark on the spoon.
Repeat with the advance / retard lever set to slack wire position.  Mark the spoon again.

You’re looking for one which is 5/8” before TDC, as shown by the marks on the spoon handle.  If the other mark is greater than 5/8” it will be too far advanced.  It should be less than 5/8” so that you can retard the ignition for starting.  Put the spoon in your toolbox for future checking or helping someone else.

This all seems a long winded explanation, so I hope it helps.  I once timed my ES2 so that it was over advanced; it did start – just, but sounded awful.
 

Hi Josh,

   What I was trying to say in my previous post is the ignition timing depends on the compression ratio. The higher the compression the less advance you need. If you have a flat top piston your compression ratio will be around 6.7 to 1 and will need 42 degrees btdc full advance. As stated earlier, 35 degrees is for high compression racing engines. If you set your low compression engine at 35 it will be retarded and you could seize the piston or burn out the exhaust valve.
   With the slack wire magneto like yours, when the left side handlebar control is pushed fully forward the outer cable should have a small amount of loose movement and the mag will automatically be back to it's full advance position where it should be timed from. The old method of putting a hand rolling cigarette paper between the closed points is still a good way to find the opening point to set at 42 degrees.

I thought the way to check if its a tight or slack wire mag was which side of the mag the cable comes out?!  Slack wire mag has the cable coming out of the left hand side as you look at the points cover, tight wire has the cable coming out on the right hand side.  

From the photo at the top Josh's mag is slack line. 

Dan 

You do have the same number of teeth on  both magneto sprockets, don't you?  They changed from 15 to 16 in 1948.  If they are mixed, it will fire once, occasionally.

And as Dan says - the approach side of the cable to the mag confirms if it is tight or slack wire advance.  Yours is the same as my prewar 16H (which shared the same bottom end) so it is tight wire advance.  Unless the magneto direction changed...

As the rotor turns anticlockwise, it meets the rising ramp to break contact.  As your face cam is pulled clockwise when the cable gets tighter, the anticlockwise moving rotor makes contact sooner.
So if the magneto rotor turns the same way as the back wheel (anticlockwise views from the left - which I believe it does) you have tight wire advance.  So set the timing at 1/2" BTDC with the wire fully tight.  You can always relax the wire slightly if it's too far advanced, but you can't tighten it on the road if it's a bit retarded.  

These engines aren't super high compression short stroke motors and piston drop is fine.  I just set my Inter using piston drop - and then checked with a strobe and it was exactly what I'd been aiming for.

If the rotor turns the opposite way to the wheels, you would have slack wire advance. 

Hi Josh,

   If you think your valve timing is correct check the pushrod adjustment is correct.If you think it is just the carb setting that is the problem, you could try some of the following. Set the needle in the middle notch, this controls the mid range of the engine speed along with the slide cut-away. Check there are no leaks in the exhaust system. The silencer/muffler type can affect which slide cut-away is best for mid range pick-up, but a 6/3 is a good starting point. The main jet only controls the full throttle performance unless it is blocked with grit from the tank, this should be a 160. If you have 2 fuel taps fitted you can sometimes get an air lock if one tap is off, so turn on both taps to check this is not the problem. The slide stop that is at an angle on the right side should be adjusted to give you a steady idling speed when the engine is warmed up. Check the float is correctly engaged in the float needle notch to give the correct fuel level.
   As previous posts, when starting flood the carb and set left hand ignition lever at half retard and push the right hand choke lever fully forward. When started pushed advance lever fully forward to get a steady speed, but pull back the choke lever gradually as the engine warms up. I would still advise at least 42 degrees fully advanced, once you have sorted the carburation.