Dominator 99 white smoke from right hand exhaust 1958 model

Have you fitted 6 start gears to your pump?

Paul

It can take a few thousand miles to run in new pistons ( or a good belting!),especially if the honing is not right for the ring type.Were the gaps staggered round the pistons?. I have tried the 6 start gears,more trouble than worth. With pressure fed rockers you will need valve seals, will your guides hold them?. With the low pressure valve feed its possible to adjust the flow to the rockers with a smaller bore return fitting. A jubilee one is too much though and restricts the return to the tank to a point that too much of the oil flow tends to miss the tank completely!.See my earlier posts on the subject.

Previously peter_sinnott wrote:

Previously paul_nicholls wrote:

Have you fitted 6 start gears to your pump?

Paul

No It still has the three start gear.

Peter

Hello the 3 start gear and oil pump are to be matched with scrolled rocker shafts NOT plain Rocker Shafts you rockers are not getting oil

This is a familiar sounding story caused by one or more issues. The choice of pressure fed rockers from a standard 3 start oil pump is a marginal call. I would have gone for the larger capacity post 1960 pump usually marked/stamped with a letter 's' on the front. Or added a 6 start worm/gear to the earlier pump. Either of these combinations will cope better with pressure fed rockers and the 1.50" crankshaft big-ends.

Robert is quite correct in that you need to ride a lot more miles in order for the rings to bed in. Generally after around 400 miles you will notice more engine compression and less smoke. But this all depends on the state of the pistons and bore.

Returning to the the rockers........ Because both exhausts are not smoking then the problem is probably not being caused in the inlet rocker region unless there is a problem with a guide. Acommon mistake is to buy new plain spindles and fit them into old rockers that previously used scrolled spindles oiled by a low pressure oil feed. These older versions are notorious for having significant wear to the inner ends of the rockers. This is caused by lack of oil reaching them on start-up due to worn oil pumps and consequent lack of oil pressure.

Finally, if the Timing Cover Pressure relief valve is sticking or its spring too strong then, on start-up, this chunk of the engine quickly fills up with oil which then heads off to the right hand piston. Subsequently over-oiling it. Which goes back to the need for bedding-in the piston rings a lot more.

As Phil has said ,you could have an issue with a guide which is allowing oil to pass down the bore in the head which can be damaged when removing or fitting new guides. If the problem is on the inlet you will see an oily plug. If on the exhaust the oil will be burnt in the pipe and neat oil can be seen in the port if the pipe is removed and sometimes will drip from the rose nut. If the head supply is blocked for a 5 mile ride and the smoke stops at least you will know that the pistons are ok.

Have you fitted a Wassell or other non standard type of gasket set? I had this a long time ago, the right hand drain holes are different in some pattern parts which prevent oil draining down quick enough and the only was out is down the valve guides. It was a complete mystery until we discovered this anomaly. Right hand pot got flooded with oil from the rocker box until the oil was hot enough to drain faster then it cleared. Ensure all gaskets holes align with the old ones if you still have them otherwise check the drain holes in the head and barrels and crankcase top.

Previously peter_sinnott wrote:

Previously ian_jayne wrote:

Have you fitted a Wassell or other non standard type of gasket set? I had this a long time ago, the right hand drain holes are different in some pattern parts which prevent oil draining down quick enough and the only was out is down the valve guides. It was a complete mystery until we discovered this anomaly. Right hand pot got flooded with oil from the rocker box until the oil was hot enough to drain faster then it cleared. Ensure all gaskets holes align with the old ones if you still have them otherwise check the drain holes in the head and barrels and crankcase top.

Hi Ian

I will check this when I strip it down, but I only bought parts from RGM or Norvil so they should be ok.

Regards Peter

Good luck Peter I hope you find this to be the case. I worked at Colmore Depot in Loughborough on Nortons in the 60âs. I only encountered this once -forewarned is forearmed as they say. I thought that about the Wassell gaskets Iâd be interested to know what they supply. Easy to overcome, make your own holes if needs be.

Hi Peter, its well worth taking plenty of time to check all and think about it, very frustrating to keep taking a motor down.

Previously peter_sinnott wrote:

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously peter_sinnott wrote:

Previously paul_nicholls wrote:

Have you fitted 6 start gears to your pump?

Paul

No It still has the three start gear.

Peter

Hello the 3 start gear and oil pump are to be matched with scrolled rocker shafts NOT plain Rocker Shafts you rockers are not getting oil

Hi Anna

I did discuss this with Les at Norvil prior to fitting these parts he told me this system with the 3 start gear was fitted to his daughters bike which had cover more than 2000 miles without any issues. I can also confirm oil is getting to the rocker shafts.

Regards Peter

his daughter bike is a black 1964 650ss and was fitted as standard with 6 start oil pump and equipment i knew his daughter well her name kate she a very good rider and business woman And standard 1958 model 99s are not fitted with plain rocker spindles they were fitted with Scrolled rocker spindles just like my december 1960 norton 650 Manxman that I have rebuilt twice now, and rebuild many more for others along with my 1954 dominator model 88 witch after rebuild the mag twice now dose not leak oil in and she now run nice and a nice tick over and start easy just have finish the painting of the tank and wiring to finish and mot stuff sort, bits and bats when time allows me to do something too them but we all get at some time your anna j

I note a mention of wet-sumping and then a smoking engine. Perhaps your oil pump is not in the best condition. The 'S' marked pumps have slightly wider internal gears that give a higher capacity feed and will similarly clear the sump faster of excess oil.

Previously philip_hannam wrote:

I note a mention of wet-sumping and then a smoking engine. Perhaps your oil pump is not in the best condition. The 'S' marked pumps have slightly wider internal gears that give a higher capacity feed and will similarly clear the sump faster of excess oil.

Hello yes phil oil pumps with an S were fitted to manxman 650 0n to ss and others the 1958 were just the same as other models white smoke is loss of the control of the oil ring ring end gaps should be 10 thou and 8 thou of compression rings and bear piston to cylinder wall should be no more then 3 thou to 4.1/2 thou and gradini piston and rings do not bed in well the bore radiusis are not the same has BHB or Hepolite but with some palue honing they can be made good but me i would not use gardini pistons there heavy and have the heat ratings are not like the original BHB pistons or Hepolite for that matter yours anna j

Previously peter_sinnott wrote:

Hi All

I took the head off Saturday and found quite a bit of oil over and around the head gasket. I could see trails of oil running from the oil way that runs down from the head into the barrels on the right hand cylinder, some of this ran into the right hand bore.

The head gasket was a solid copper type which I'm sure (hope) I annealed. Anyway I had a spare head gasket the type that sandwiched asbestos between copper. I fitted that and went for a ride with a friend behind me. He confirmed it's about 90% better.

I'm not sure if the head gasket failed or there was just to much oil coming down from the head, or both, either way I will run it some more and see how it goes.

Thanks again for all your comments they are a big help. All the best Peter

Hello peter now your shedding some light on things now that oil way run down into the crankcase and that the bottom there is a 90% elbow and i get blocked up from time to time it then come out in to the timing chest in between the timing chain so you need some bendy pipe cleans to clean in out , and sometime you get oil coming from the push rod tunnels in between the head gasket for this you need stag wellseal and a small paint brush to paint the welseal on with , hope you get it sorted yours anna j

Previously anna jeannette Dixon wrote:

Previously peter_sinnott wrote:

Hi All

I took the head off Saturday and found quite a bit of oil over and around the head gasket. I could see trails of oil running from the oil way that runs down from the head into the barrels on the right hand cylinder, some of this ran into the right hand bore.

The head gasket was a solid copper type which I'm sure (hope) I annealed. Anyway I had a spare head gasket the type that sandwiched asbestos between copper. I fitted that and went for a ride with a friend behind me. He confirmed it's about 90% better.

I'm not sure if the head gasket failed or there was just to much oil coming down from the head, or both, either way I will run it some more and see how it goes.

Thanks again for all your comments they are a big help. All the best Peter

Hello peter now your shedding some light on things now that oil way run down into the crankcase and that the bottom there is a 90% elbow and i get blocked up from time to time it then come out in to the timing chest in between the timing chain so you need some bendy pipe cleans to clean in out , and sometime you get oil coming from the push rod tunnels in between the head gasket for this you need stag wellseal and a small paint brush to paint the welseal on with , hope you get it sorted yours anna j

Ps and mind how you get your head back on and start with center bolt and work our wards and then run the engine and re toque back up from the center out good luck

I always use wellseal on head gaskets after ensuring they're well annealed. I reverted to the solid copper type on my Commando and it was leak free.

4 Feet !! thats interesting ,first time i have heard of doing that. If your head appears well oiled and not too noisy we can take that as a reference . All those anal worryworts can check what head of oil they have !. thinking about that its possible that your non std tank has a smaller than std outlet and you may still have a bit more oil than you need,look out for smoke.

Previously peter_sinnott wrote:

All ok now.

Hi All just wanted to finish this post. After replacing the head gasket the white smoke did become less for a while but it soon came back. I have now replaced the pressure feed system with the original low pressure feed and this has stopped all traces of white smoke. I did run a clear plastic pipe from the tee piece in front of the oil tank and oil ran about 4 feet above the cylinder head at tick over speed which I am happy with.

Thank again all the best Peter

That's a first Peter well done.

Peter/All,

When I built my 650 SS engine with pressure fed rockers and together with plain rocker spindles was advise by Mick Hemmings to fit seals to the inlet valves, I may be mistaken but I do not see in any of the posts mention of inlet valve seals.

Now this may have nothing to do with Peter's white smoke, but if there is a lot more oil in the head because of a high pressure feed then not having any seals on the inlet vales will cause smoking problems.

Hope this is of interest.

Tony

If its running with no rattles then oil is getting where it needs to be ,a peek into the exhaust valve chamber to check some oil is getting there,no smoke or oiled plugs ,then I would assume all is ok. The tank return should be visable and show an intermittent flow with bubbles after its cleared any wet sumping. Too much oil to the head usually results in a blue exhaust haze when you blip the throttle.You need the scrolled rocker shafts with the low pressure feed.its possible to have oil in the head and the shafts still not be properly lubricated, if you have the plain shafts. Its also possible to get the oil doing a circulation that mostly avoids the tank!!Thats why it needs to be regulated by balancing the return banjo hole sizes.

When I got my bike it had been converted to pressure rocker feed. There was a very small restrictor hole in the timing cover union. Despite this, it over-fed oil to the top end. So the PO fitted guide seals. That meant too little oil in the valve stems....

What I have done is revert to rocker feed off the scavenge line, with a restrictor the same size as a Jubilee union. I did it a long time ago, so don't remember the size.

I know someone who converts his bikes to pressure rocker feed, and fits a 100 main jet as a restrictor. Standard pump, 3-start gears and plain spindles. He swears it all works well

Have you considered that the smoke may be pressurised crank cases?

My bike smoked heavily on first start-up, but eased off after a few minutes' running. No smoke now

Paul

Previously robert_tuck wrote:

If its running with no rattles then oil is getting where it needs to be ,a peek into the exhaust valve chamber to check some oil is getting there,no smoke or oiled plugs ,then I would assume all is ok. The tank return should be visable and show an intermittent flow with bubbles after its cleared any wet sumping. Too much oil to the head usually results in a blue exhaust haze when you blip the throttle.You need the scrolled rocker shafts with the low pressure feed.its possible to have oil in the head and the shafts still not be properly lubricated, if you have the plain shafts. Its also possible to get the oil doing a circulation that mostly avoids the tank!!Thats why it needs to be regulated by balancing the return banjo hole sizes.